Maneuvers shouldn't kill your build's endurance. You do always have the option of cycling in brawl for a no endurance attack. You're a tank, damage is important, but secondary to holding aggro and staying alive.
Hecatomb in Jab is a great idea. You want to use Jab often for the -res that bruising causes (but not more than once per 10 seconds on the same target). Procs are a set amount of damage, so I usually place them in the attacks I use most often.
Force Feedback can proc per mob in footstomp; that's the way to go.
Four slotted stamina, including proc, is the most I would go. You could probably drop a slot without losing too much, but since you plan on adding maneuvers, I'd leave it as is unless you really need the slots.
Phys Perfection seems ok, but I'd pull a slot (the Miracle) and put the Miracle in health. Health will come with the free slot, so you might as well use it.
For hasten, look at the numbers yourself. See how much that third slot does for you (less than 15 second recharge difference against a 200 second recharge), and decide if it's worth it based on what else you could do with that slot.
Defense powers sound right.
I wouldn't slot Gaussian's in rage considering you're building for typed defense. The other bonuses it provides aren't great, and the proc won't do well in Rage. I wouldn't slot it for +tohit, as rage already provides a lot. Just make sure that Rage overlaps a few seconds so you don't have to deal with the -defense crash.
If you're going to spec into Gloom/Dark Oblit, drop hasten. Not only does hasten increase the endurance consumption by making your endurance heavy attacks come up more often, Hasten itself costs you 20 endurance every 160 seconds or so, which can be deadly. Rage does the same thing, and I guarantee you'll have them happen at the same time. Right now, you've got plenty of extra recovery to deal with it.
Put one extra slot in health and give it both uniques, leave stamina at four slots, drop hasten, and you should be fine.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Just tanked Reichmann in a TF today. He killed me once after a stun but self rez helped there. My main worry now is that a shield scrapper kept pulling aggro off me even though I was spamming attacks like mad and running all toggles (except cloak of fear). Is this normal? Also OG also taunts a little since it applies the mag 2 stun? Made me wonder if AAO is a lot more powerful taunt aura or if DAs aggro capabilities are a bit sub par? If so maybe a SD tank will function better (if it can survive hard content)? After all aggro control is my job... was no fun to be last man standing on Reichman even though he couldnt kill me for minutes. Any thoughts?
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Were you taunting? My DA tank has kept aggro from Shield Scrappers without problems.|
Originally Posted by Adaptionist
Any thoughts?
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Also, Reichsman has some nasty AoE that can damn near one shot anyone squishy.
AAO is undoubtedly the most powerful taunt aura in the game, but to understand why, you have to understand the aggro formula. Aggro is determined by a combination of character threat level, taunt value, taunt duration remaning, damage being done, and debuffs being applied.
Both taunt auras have the same duration and taunt value (I belive), but AAO pulses twice as fast. Your threat value is higher because you're a tank, but the scrapper does more damage to begin with, so it's about a wash. Death Shroud can miss; AAO cannot. Death Shroud has no debuffs (I don't believe status effects count, because OG will never stun Reich); AAO debuffs damage. Also, since AAO buffs damage, the scrapper is doing a much larger amount of damage than you are, even with Rage. Without Taunt, shield scrappers tend to steal aggro a lot.
It's not impossible to keep aggro off of a scrapper. Just rotate in some Taunts.
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Did not have taunt. Have since respecced into it however. My build now has around 50 global rehcarge (120 when I add hasten in I19). I run weave, cj and manouvers in adittion to all the dark toggles except cloak of fear. I am softcapped to s/l/e/n (44.9%). I have also slapped on PvP IO (+3 def and +3 resist to all). Most defences is in the 30s (Melee is around 40%). S/L resist is at 74%. Should be a pretty tought bugger now. I have no accolades yet tho (working on em), so HP is currently at just over 2200. With accolades +20% HP I should be at around 2600? (just base hp that is enhanced?).
Running manouvers in this build makes it not completely endurance sustainable by the way when spamming attacks. I went down to 3 performance shifters in stamina and that may be part of the reason?
Actually struggled a little with arachnos tip mission at +2/8 (two deaths). Cascade failure on defence. Is this to be expected? I suspect tarantula queens to be the culprits. I also just waded into groups and spammed footstomp and ST attacks (only have jab, haymaker, knockout blow...skipped punch for fully slotted taunt). Malta, Carnies etc are no problem however. Devouring earth can still be a bit rough on +2 or higher. I am probably not playing very effective, and not thinking a lot about which enemies to take out first..but hey im a tank 
All in all, I'm pretty happy with this toon. Great concept Sand-Man (looks like a pile of sand knocking stuff around). I may have to think a little about tactics however now that my build is finished.
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Yes, it is to be expected. You've stumbled on a defense-built Dark Armor's biggest weak point: It has no defense debuff resistance, so if you start getting debuffed, you are probably going to keep getting debuffed. Most of the time it isn't a big deal if you're softcapped, but if a couple machine gunners get lucky at the same time you're probably going to lose defense rapidly. |
Originally Posted by Adaptionist
Actually struggled a little with arachnos tip mission at +2/8 (two deaths). Cascade failure on defence. Is this to be expected? |
Fortunately, Dark Armor also has good resistances and the best self heal power in the game, so losing defense isn't as deadly to them as it could be.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
That was what I thought, I am wondering if it is the same problem I have experienced on my SD/SS tank in the 40s too? Arachnos tear him apart faster tho (in spite of his DDR with high recharge and three slotted active defence). Or maybe it was non positional psi attacks?
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I blame it more on the defense debuffs. You probably have about 50% DDR, less if you don't run Grant Cover, which means debuffs still hurt, especially if they're +anything in level.|
Originally Posted by Adaptionist
That was what I thought, I am wondering if it is the same problem I have experienced on my SD/SS tank in the 40s too? Arachnos tear him apart faster tho (in spite of his DDR with high recharge and three slotted active defence). Or maybe it was non positional psi attacks?
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Dark Armor has heavier resists and an amazing heal to fall back on. Shields is more one trick pony. There's resist there, for sure, and +max HP, but without defense, Shield's only saving grace is the ability to kill enemies before they kill you.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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There will always be something to which you're weak. Dark Armor is actually pretty well off in that regard, as capped DEF is itself a kind of hedge against DEF debuffs (because the first debuff usually has to hit you to start the cascade failure, which can at least give you a little extra time to thin the crowd and/or pop inspirations.) |
Originally Posted by Adaptionist
That was what I thought, I am wondering if it is the same problem I have experienced on my SD/SS tank in the 40s too? Arachnos tear him apart faster tho (in spite of his DDR with high recharge and three slotted active defence). Or maybe it was non positional psi attacks?
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The idea that there are people with builds that can efficiently solo random missions at or near the highest difficulty levels is basically a myth. When people talk about those builds, they're usually either describing a cherry-picked mission full of farmable mobs, or they're talking about a build that can handle most anything on paper, but occasionally struggles when it encounters a kryptonite mob faction. I think the devs don't get enough credit for varying the threats among high-level NPCs. On paper, the game is trivially easy. In practice, it isn't always so.
Personally, and for what little it's worth, I like +0/x6 or so on my INV/SS Tanker. But I have a fair amount of AoE damage and I like to maximize drops. Against the right (or the wrong) mob faction, I have to use the terrain to my advantage and pop Inspirations like they're going out of style, even at that relatively unimpressive difficulty setting. Try Paragon PD if you're looking for DEF debuffs and a lot of energy damage (to which DA is very weak).
As for Dark Armor, it's basically immune to end drain, and it has good psi protection. Those are probably the two most common bug-a-boos for high-end Tankers. You have excellent healing potential, a good amount of proactive mitigation (in the form of control), a very nice combat-usable self-rez, and a decent amount of free damage from Death Shroud -- and probably one or two other nice perks.
I imagine Dark/SS is a serious end hog, though. Ironically, the only end drain to which you're vulnerable is your own.
Honestly, I'd recommend any APP that gives you an extra AOE attack, all of that said. Assuming you can get your end use under control (and there's no reason to think you can't, if for no other reason than that we're a couple of weeks away from the delicious Cardiac Alpha Boost), Energy Mastery does very little for you. The extra regeneration is less than negligible when compared against your heal, and Rage trivializes any need for more ToHit. Laser Beam Eyes is a terrible attack from a DPA standpoint, perhaps the worst available among all analogous APP/Patron powers, and Torrent is more parlor trick for a Tanker than it is a bona-fide source of damage.
So I'd go Soul for the excellent Gloom, or Electric/Fire for AoE goodness.
Sorry for the ramble. Kinda got away from me there.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
I'm going to take a look at Mu Mastery's Electrifying Cages for my Dark/Elec. I'll use it to keep the stunned mobs from wandering away. It's a nice mag 3 Immob.
(Hopefully at some point we'll be able to customize APP/PPP as the red lightning doesn't work with the toon.)
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Quote:
Under what I would consider your best case scenario under normal circumstances (double Active Defense and Grant Cover running), you'd have 77.8%. Unfortunately that sounds like more than it really is. Defense Debuff Resistance works like status resistance, not damage resistance. This translates to defense debuffs having about 44% less of an effect. Against heavy -defense enemies (like Arachnos or Longbow), your defense can still melt very quickly.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I blame it more on the defense debuffs. You probably have about 50% DDR, less if you don't run Grant Cover, which means debuffs still hurt, especially if they're +anything in level.
Dark Armor has heavier resists and an amazing heal to fall back on. Shields is more one trick pony. There's resist there, for sure, and +max HP, but without defense, Shield's only saving grace is the ability to kill enemies before they kill you. |
If you only have one instance of AD and are not running GC, then you have half that DDR, which translates into defense debuffs having 28% less of an effect. That is just awful when, as Dechs said, defense is really the only trick that pony knows.
Against Arachnos, it's a good idea to identify which sort of enemies are going to be a problem for you or your team. It can vary wildly. For /Shield, before 40 I hit the Night Widows first. A boss with +15% ToHit at that level is heart breaking. Once they turn to Lts, then the soldier's -Defense is my first concern, followed by Night Widows.
In both cases, the defense-focused sets or a character who's added defense with IOs, I just try to keep a purple or two or three on hand and monitor my defense. Once the first debuff hits, I use a purple to keep it at soft cap. Otherwise, the debuffs will keep rolling in till I'm dead!
I also took Shadow Meld on my Shield Scrapper for this purpose. That doesn't help you out with Tanker concerns though
.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Quote:
Oh really now? That's not something I was aware of, and I hate to say it, but it doesn't sound right.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
Defense Debuff Resistance works like status resistance, not damage resistance. This translates to defense debuffs having about 44% less of an effect. Against heavy -defense enemies (like Arachnos or Longbow), your defense can still melt very quickly.
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If it really worked like status protection, then softcapped SR characters with 95% DDR would worry about defense debuffs a lot more than they currently do. As it stands, a SR character with 47% defense has enough to virtually ignore defense debuffs.
If the 95% capped DDR was really acting like status protection, than a single standard 7.5% debuff would be enough to start the cascade.
I know that's not the case.
Status resistance reduce duration, not magnitude of effects, thus the "100% resistance is half duration." DDR decreases the magnitude of a debuff.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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My Tank has both Fences and Ball Lightning from the Mu APP. With Footstomp and double Rage, ten minions die in one salvo (~5 seconds or so of animation). With the +recharge proc in Footstomp, I'm virtually assured of 5 seconds of +100% recharge, which helps bring back the long-cooldown Ball faster.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I'm going to take a look at Mu Mastery's Electrifying Cages for my Dark/Elec. I'll use it to keep the stunned mobs from wandering away. It's a nice mag 3 Immob.
(Hopefully at some point we'll be able to customize APP/PPP as the red lightning doesn't work with the toon.) |
It's a great combo, though it can be difficult to fit in 8 of your discretionary slots to spend on Targeted AoE powers (the IO sets for which don't come with useful DEF bonuses of any kind -- which I think is intentional). It also comes at the expense of potential single-target DPS, as Gloom is superior to Mu Lightning.
The best thing about Fences, though -- and probably the reason I'd never drop it now -- is that it prevents those freaking Longbow Eagles (among others) from skittering in and out of AoE range. When I-19 hits, I'm planning to try Handclap as a form of ghetto mitigation. Only problem is that Fences has a shorter radius than Handclap (and Ball Lightning, and Footstomp), which means that I will potentially knock some targets away. Still, it's a small price to pay for additional situational survivability.
/End threadjack.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Quote:
I think Gilla was referring to the math, not necessarily the duration.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Oh really now? That's not something I was aware of, and I hate to say it, but it doesn't sound right.
If it really worked like status protection, then softcapped SR characters with 95% DDR would worry about defense debuffs a lot more than they currently do. As it stands, a SR character with 47% defense has enough to virtually ignore defense debuffs. If the 95% capped DDR was really acting like status protection, than a single standard 7.5% debuff would be enough to start the cascade. I know that's not the case. Status resistance reduce duration, not magnitude of effects, thus the "100% resistance is half duration." DDR decreases the magnitude of a debuff. |
In other words, a 50% resistance translates into a 33% reduction of effect (1 / 1.5 = 0.667). This is (AFAIK) in contrast with damage resistance, which simply reduces the magnitude of the resistance debuff by a flat amount. (50% damage RES = 50% effective RES debuff).
Either way, it's the first I've heard of it. I think we'd see more complaints from SR Scrappers if their ~95% DEF-debuff resistance were actually ~48% in practice.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Stop using acronyms!
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Right, I only brought up duration because that's what status resistance actually affects and why (I believe) it uses a different formula than DDR.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
I think Gilla was referring to the math, not necessarily the duration.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Obitus
I think we'd see more complaints from SR Scrappers if their ~95% DEF-debuff resistance were actually ~48% in practice.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Hehe, you're right. That is annoying. Let's see:|
Originally Posted by Titaniuma
Stop using acronyms!
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DDR = Defense Debuff Resistance
APP = Ancillary Power Pool (those pools unlocked at 41 hero-side)
PPP = Patron Power Pools (villain-side equivalents to APPs)
DA = Dark Armor (you probably guessed that)
SS = Super strength (ditto)
SR = Super Reflexes
AFAIK = As Far As I Know
AD = Active Defense
AAO = Against All Odds
AOE = Area Of Effect
ST = Single Target
I'm sure I missed some. Normally I feel as you do about acronyms that aren't immediately clear from the context, but it's hard not to do it sometimes when the conversation is flowing along so smoothly with them. Your society is a good idea!
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Quote:
Well the wiki says you're right and I'm wrong. To be honest, I can't trace back in my mind why I thought it worked that way. Subjectively, it seemed to me that the second dose of DDR on Shields (another AD and GC) was less useful than the first dose (the first AD and BA). Unless some new information arises, disregard my original comment about the DDR |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Right, I only brought up duration because that's what status resistance actually affects and why (I believe) it uses a different formula than DDR.
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.The risk of cascading failure is still there, however it works.
Plus, correct me if I'm wrong (again), but for /SR to hit 95% DDR don't they need to have Elude running?
Edit: which is relevant because it'd be hard to even notice defense debuffs when you've got close to 100% defense w/o IOs.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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According to RedTomax, I get 92.28% defense, unenhanced, from toggles, Practiced Brawler, and passives. No Elude.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
Plus, correct me if I'm wrong (again), but for /SR to hit 95% DDR don't they need to have Elude running?
Edit: which is relevant because it'd be hard to even notice defense debuffs when you've got close to 100% defense w/o IOs. |
Practiced Brawler accounts for 30% of that, but is unenhanceable. Subtracting that out gives us 62.28%, and adjusting for 55% ED cap on defense enhancement, even without Practiced Brawler, a SR character is over 95% DDR without Elude.
EDIT: Also, Practiced Brawler only has DDR on a PvP map.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I think I'm done posting for a day or two. I somehow forgot you could enhance DDR. Yikes.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
According to RedTomax, I get 92.28% defense, unenhanced, from toggles, Practiced Brawler, and passives. No Elude.
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Thanks for the information.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Did Eden trial last night. Could herd 30 mobs around no problem, and fought the wall spawns alone (pulled away from wiped team so they could rez) for 10 minutes or so. No problem holding aggro with taunt on AV's monsters etc. Was a real DPS heavy team. Also endurcance is a non-issue when teaming (dont have to keep a continous chain going non stop).
With I19 and alpha slots I am wondering if I will be endurance sustainable with Cardiac while skipping physical perfectian (and instead going for sould or earth mastery). None of my powers have more than 40% end reduction in them so the whole bonus will be applied. Also what will my resists be with a 30% bounds where only 1/3 is affected by ED?
Take my s/l resistance for example (4 reactive armor slotted in each). With tought and PVP +3 I am now at 74%. Will I go over 80%?
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I'm not off-the-top-of-my-head familiar with Physical Perfection's exact stats, but I know that it's not that much +regen and recovery. I think it's something like +15/15%.|
Originally Posted by Adaptionist
Did Eden trial last night. Could herd 30 mobs around no problem, and fought the wall spawns alone (pulled away from wiped team so they could rez) for 10 minutes or so. No problem holding aggro with taunt on AV's monsters etc. Was a real DPS heavy team. Also endurcance is a non-issue when teaming (dont have to keep a continous chain going non stop).
With I19 and alpha slots I am wondering if I will be endurance sustainable with Cardiac while skipping physical perfectian (and instead going for sould or earth mastery). None of my powers have more than 40% end reduction in them so the whole bonus will be applied. Also what will my resists be with a 30% bounds where only 1/3 is affected by ED? Take my s/l resistance for example (4 reactive armor slotted in each). With tought and PVP +3 I am now at 74%. Will I go over 80%? |
In any case, it's not as strong as Stamina for recovery, and not as strong as Health for +regen. If (between toggles and attacks and utility powers like Dark Regen) you're using let's say 5 End per second unmodified, and if we assume that all of your powers go from 40% end reduction to 73%, then:
Your initial end use per second (without the slot) is 5 / 1.4 = 3.5 EPS.
With the Cardiac bonus, your end use per second drops to 5 / 1.73 = 2.89 EPS.
That's a savings of 0.61 EPS, and that's a fairly conservative estimate, given that a DA Tanker who's going all out to attack and heal can use probably much more end than that to begin with.
Now let's say that Physical Perfection is +15% recovery. Base recovery is 1.667 EPS (100 endurance / 60 seconds). But most people at the high end of the game have more than 100 endurance, so base recovery actually tends to give you more than that. For the sake of argument, let's say you have 115 endurance, which is pretty high. Your base recovery goes up by 15%, from 1.667 to 1.92 EPS.
ED-capped Physical Perfection would therefore give you 1.92 * (0.15 * 1.95) = 0.5616 EPS.
So yeah, using every concession I can think of for Physical Perfection, the Cardiac boost comes out ahead. It will only get better when we get access to Rare and Very Rare boosts, too. It's safe to say that even the Common Cardiac Boost is at least as good and probably miles better than Physical Perfection for a build like yours.
As far as your RES numbers go, you'll probably get about 5% more S/L from the Uncommon boost. It all depends on how many (and how powerful) S/L RES powers you have to enhance, and how well slotted they are for resistance.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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The thing with Physical Perfection is that it can be slotted with another performance shifter...
Quote:
The Performance Shifter proc is worth 0.2 EPS over time (20% chance of 10 end every 10 seconds -- 0.2 * 10 / 10). It can be worth slightly more than that if you have more than 100 max end, but it's never going to get beyond that ballpark.|
Originally Posted by Adaptionist
The thing with Physical Perfection is that it can be slotted with another performance shifter...
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(120 max end would yield 0.2 * (0.1 * 120) / 10 = 0.24 EPS. That's about as high as you're realistically going to get your max endurance pool.)
Anyway, by my calcs, in order for the 33% Cardiac Alpha boost to outpace enhanced Physical Perfection and the extra Performance Shifter proc, you'd have to use an unmodified ~5.6 EPS with attacks, utility, and toggle powers. On a Dark Armor Tanker, that should be trivially easy to do. Remember, the prior estimate was extremely conservative on purpose. I wouldn't get too caught up on this-or-that detail; Energy Mastery's a loser once we introduce Cardiac into the equation.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I have a 50 dark/SS that is IO'ed out. In my I19 build I will have room for manouvers making softcapping S/L/E/N defence achievable fairly easy. I don't have endurcance problems now (if I turn off sprint and rely on combat jumping). Will manouvers suck too much end? If so, I may have to get the PvP +3 def IO...expensive tho.
I have heatcomb proc slotted in jab (along with 4 kCs), was thinking i use jab very often (filler for the other attacks) thereby getting the most out of it. Or should i place it haymaker or KOB?
I also have placed force feedback proc in haymaker but am wondering if its better placed in footstomp...if it can proc pr mob and not just pr cast.
I have 4 slotted stamina with performance shifters (including the proc), maybe i should leave it 3 slotted?
Physical pefection is 3 slotted with Numinas, Miracle and Performance shifter proc.
Hasten is 3 slotted, but i read that i gain little from the 3rd slot?
4 slotted defensive powers (Cloak, Weave) 3 slotted CJ with LOTGs. That sound about right?
Currently at 44.5 s/l and 38 e/n defence. I have not slotted gaussians in rage (but 2 rectifieds, one to hit and 2 recharge). Should i go for gaussians?
Would love to switch out energy mastery with sould mastery for gloom, darkest night and dark obliteration (all good with rage), but am thinking this will make the endurance unmanagable. Any thoughts on that?