City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Cloaking Device Defense value too high ?

DreadShinobi

By DreadShinobi,
Posted on: 2010-11-15 15:52 in Soldiers of Arachnos

 

Posted

I am noticing that Cloaking Device is giving off about 12% value.
If you click Cloaking Device on then off you will notice AOE Positional is going from 38.9 to 50.4, that is a 11.5 % difference.

From asking on the forums and doing a bit of research I also seen suppression should be 50% which is 3.75 %. Of course I am getting 2% higher.

Here is the build for inspection
Anyone have clue ??

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.81
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Bane Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Bash

  • (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage
  • (3) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance
  • (3) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge
  • (5) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  • (5) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  • (7) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade
  • (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
  • (11) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
  • (17) Reactive Armor - Endurance/Recharge
  • (17) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
  • (34) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
Level 2: Wolf Spider Armor
  • (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
Level 4: Combat Training: Defensive
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  • (9) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
  • (39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
Level 6: Build Up
  • (A) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff
  • (7) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff/Recharge
Level 8: Hasten
  • (A) Recharge Reduction IO
  • (9) Recharge Reduction IO
  • (23) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
  • (11) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
  • (40) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
Level 12: Poisonous Ray
  • (A) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff
  • (13) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Defense Debuff
  • (13) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Recharge
  • (15) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
  • (15) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
  • (33) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
Level 14: Swift
  • (A) Run Speed IO
  • (34) Run Speed IO
Level 16: Health
  • (A) Miracle - +Recovery
  • (27) Healing IO
  • (33) Healing IO
Level 18: Pulverize
  • (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
  • (19) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
  • (19) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
  • (21) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
  • (21) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  • (42) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
Level 20: Stamina
  • (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod
  • (23) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge
  • (25) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
Level 22: Mental Training
  • (A) Run Speed IO
Level 24: Cloaking Device
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
  • (25) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  • (34) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
Level 26: Shatter
  • (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage
  • (27) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
  • (33) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
  • (37) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  • (39) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  • (46) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Level 28: Tactical Training: Leadership
  • (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
  • (29) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
  • (29) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
  • (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
  • (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
  • (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
Level 30: Tactical Training: Assault
  • (A) Endurance Reduction IO
Level 32: Maneuvers
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  • (37) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
Level 35: Surveillance
  • (A) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff
  • (36) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Defense Debuff
  • (36) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Recharge
  • (36) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
  • (37) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
  • (39) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage
Level 38: Crowd Control
  • (A) Obliteration - Damage
  • (40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
  • (40) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
  • (43) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  • (43) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
  • (46) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Level 41: Combat Jumping
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
  • (42) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  • (42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
  • (43) Unbounded Leap - +Stealth
Level 44: Bile Spray
  • (A) Detonation - Accuracy/Damage
  • (45) Detonation - Damage/Endurance
  • (45) Detonation - Damage/Range
  • (45) Detonation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  • (46) Detonation - Damage/Endurance/Range
Level 47: Arctic Breath
  • (A) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff
  • (48) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Defense Debuff
  • (48) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Recharge
  • (48) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
  • (50) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
  • (50) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage
Level 49: Placate
  • (A) Recharge Reduction IO
  • (50) Recharge Reduction IO
------------
Level 1: Brawl
  • (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
  • (A) Run Speed IO
Level 2: Rest
  • (A) Empty
Level 1: Conditioning
Level 6: Ninja Run
------------



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1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Mids is showing the unsuppressed defense value of the cloak, ie whenever you are attacking/attacked

 

Posted

You've got two IOs in Cloaking Device which provide Defense, base unsuppressed value is 7.5%, so you must be getting about 53.3% Enhancement from your IOs. A level 50 IO on Schedule B is about 25.5%, and I would calculate the two you have (if they're both 50) are around 41.4%.

So there's a discrepancy of about 10%, but that's the difference between 11.5 and 10.6, so that's not really that much. It sounds like there's some error there, but maybe it's just rounding or a glitch.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
You've got two IOs in Cloaking Device which provide Defense, base unsuppressed value is 7.5%, so you must be getting about 53.3% Enhancement from your IOs. A level 50 IO on Schedule B is about 25.5%, and I would calculate the two you have (if they're both 50) are around 41.4%.

So there's a discrepancy of about 10%, but that's the difference between 11.5 and 10.6, so that's not really that much. It sounds like there's some error there, but maybe it's just rounding or a glitch.
Jade are you saying that the Defense IOs are increasing the base defense value so the 10% is correct ? So then suppressed the value would be 5% ?

I know it sounds like I am repeating your answer, but I don't want to misunderstand and mess this up.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
Jade are you saying that the Defense IOs are increasing the base defense value so the 10% is correct ? So then suppressed the value would be 5% ?

I know it sounds like I am repeating your answer, but I don't want to misunderstand and mess this up.
The supressed base value is 2.5%. You can see this in mids on the info tab. The effects tab shows the unsuppressed value, which is also what shows up in your defense totals.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
The supressed base value is 2.5%. You can see this in mids on the info tab. The effects tab shows the unsuppressed value, which is also what shows up in your defense totals.
I see what your saying Dread, but if you pull the build down you will see that I am getting 11.5% for Defense value from Cloaking device and not the 5%. ( Actually I am reading 5.781% in the info tab )

I opened up my AR Device Blaster just to confirm and it does change to 5% with Cloaking Device on. I don't know if it's some sort of glitch with MIDs or it could be an old build that is not reading well in the current MIDs builder. Or You and Jade are explaining it and I am not getting it.

As I mentioned the 11.5% is throwing me off, since I should only see 5% give or take a few tenths of a point when cloaking device is on. That is why I asked the Cloaking device question in the first place before posting this thread. I just thought Cloaking Device for SOA was different then the Cloaking Device from the Blaster Device set. Or that SOA might have some inherit defense bonus of some kind..

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

As a follow up I did a new build in MIDs for a SOA and only picked up Cloaking Device. Unslotted I am getting 7.5% Defense to all but Psi damage.

I checked all the different options just to see if something might be on or giving a value higher then what I expected and you guys have mentioned. I did not find anything that I could click on or off or any combination that would produce this 7.5% value.

So either MIDs is wrong or SOA cloaking device is just higher then Blaster Cloaking Device from Device set.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Bane Spider Cloaking Device is a bit nicer than other forms of Cloaking Device (or similar stealth powers). Generally, the portion the suppressed defense from stealth powers is 1/3 the unsuppressed value. Banes get 1/2, however. So if the unsuppressed cloak is giving just under 12% defense (which sounds right if you're bringing it up to the ED cap), then you'll get around 5.85% defense even when its stealth is suppressed. This does not apply to the Cloaking Device that /Devices gets, or Widows' Mask Presence, or most of the various other cloaks you may see with other ATs.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
Bane Spider Cloaking Device is a bit nicer than other forms of Cloaking Device (or similar stealth powers). Generally, the portion the suppressed defense from stealth powers is 1/3 the unsuppressed value. Banes get 1/2, however. So if the unsuppressed cloak is giving just under 12% defense (which sounds right if you're bringing it up to the ED cap), then you'll get around 5.85% defense even when its stealth is suppressed. This does not apply to the Cloaking Device that /Devices gets, or Widows' Mask Presence, or most of the various other cloaks you may see with other ATs.
Thanks

I did further looking around and discovered that SOA do get higher defense values. So Cloaking Device numbers for SOA I was getting were correct.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
[/B][/I]I opened up my AR Device Blaster just to confirm and it does change to 5% with Cloaking Device on. I don't know if it's some sort of glitch with MIDs or it could be an old build that is not reading well in the current MIDs builder. Or You and Jade are explaining it and I am not getting it.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Blaster Cloaking Device is NOT the same as SoA Cloaking Device.

First of all, all ATs have different capabilities when using the same power. Blasters have the lowest Defense modifiers of all the ATs. They get only 3.5% with Cloaking Device, half of which suppresses when you attack. Fully slotted, this is 5.6%. (But it is a waste to slot a power with that low a Defense value for Defense, it's more productive to pick up another power like Combat Jumping or Weave. Or add some IOs)

Just as another example, Combat Jumping adds 1.75% Defense to a Blaster, unslotted. It is 1.875% to a Scrapper, 2.125% to a Corruptor, 2.25% to a Controller, and 2.5% to a Tanker, Defender or SoA. From that you can see that overall SoA get way more Defense than a Blaster, even with the same power. They get as much Defense as a Tanker, although they don't get as many actual Defense powers...

Second, Cloaking Device for SoA has even higher numbers than that. It is 7.5% Defense, while the Blaster version would be 5% if an SoA had it. (Twice what CJ gives you) Cloaking Device also allows you to Critical, like a Stalker, while the Blaster version obviously doesn't. (Of course, this is an Inherent ability, but it is built into the power)

So yeah, you're going to be getting WAY more out of this power than a Blaster would. It's much more like a Stalker's Hide.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Blaster Cloaking Device is NOT the same as SoA Cloaking Device.

First of all, all ATs have different capabilities when using the same power. Blasters have the lowest Defense modifiers of all the ATs. They get only 3.5% with Cloaking Device, half of which suppresses when you attack. Fully slotted, this is 5.6%. (But it is a waste to slot a power with that low a Defense value for Defense, it's more productive to pick up another power like Combat Jumping or Weave. Or add some IOs)

Just as another example, Combat Jumping adds 1.75% Defense to a Blaster, unslotted. It is 1.875% to a Scrapper, 2.125% to a Corruptor, 2.25% to a Controller, and 2.5% to a Tanker, Defender or SoA. From that you can see that overall SoA get way more Defense than a Blaster, even with the same power. They get as much Defense as a Tanker, although they don't get as many actual Defense powers...

Second, Cloaking Device for SoA has even higher numbers than that. It is 7.5% Defense, while the Blaster version would be 5% if an SoA had it. (Twice what CJ gives you) Cloaking Device also allows you to Critical, like a Stalker, while the Blaster version obviously doesn't. (Of course, this is an Inherent ability, but it is built into the power)

So yeah, you're going to be getting WAY more out of this power than a Blaster would. It's much more like a Stalker's Hide.
To OP,

In short, if you are Bane, you better take Cloaking Device because SoA is built around having high defense!

PS: I guess they could have renamed Bane's Cloaking Device because it is way too different from Blaster's. It's almost as good as Stalker's stealth (you can stand beside the target without being seen), it offers critical and it has much better defensive value.

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.