SL + MG attack chain...how much recharge?
By
Aaron Islander,
Posted on: 2010-11-01 15:20 in Scrappers
You can't run SL+MG , it would take some 600% recharge which you can't get.
I lost all my data when my computer crashed, but the best attack chain Dark Melee can run is SL+Smite+MG+Smite. To run that you need 234% recharge in MG. If you have 228% global recharge you should be able to run that attack chain easy.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
To have a seamless attack chain of just Siphon Life and Midnight Grasp, you need to get the recharge of each below the animation time of the other. The recharge of a power can never be reduced below 1/5th the base. Midnight Grasp has a 15 second recharge which can theoretically be reduced to 3 seconds, no lower. Siphon Life has a 1.93 second animation time.
Sorry, but it cannot be done without filler attacks.
@Roderick
ArcanaTime = [RoundUp(CastTime / 0.132) + 1] * 0.132
Siphon Life has a 1.93s cast time.
1.93 / 0.132 = 14.62
Round that up to 15, add 1, and multiply by .132
16 * 0.132 = 2.112
Midnight Grasp's Arcanatime cast time is 2.244.
Siphon life would need to recharge in 2.244s and MG in 2.112.
To figure out needed recharge bonus, divide base cooldown by desired recharge time, then subtract 1 for the base (starting) recharge.
MG's recharge: 15 / 2.112 - 1 = 610% bonus. Since this is not possible, your attack chain will not work.
For amusement, SL's recharge: 10 / 2.244 - 1 = 346% total bonus. That is actually almost possible, if you consider that the power itself can be slotted with about 100% recharge time.
Conclusion: You will NEED a third attack in your chain.
Okay, here is where I get lost.
MG
rech: 3.88
cast: 2.24 (w/Arcanatime)
SL
rech: 3.37
cast: 2.11 (w/Arcanatime)
MG's cooldown time is 3.88-2.24=1.64. Doesn't that mean that SL's cast time covers that?
SL's cooldown time is 3.37-2.11=1.26. Doesn't that mean that MG's cast time covers that?
If this isn't correct, can someone please explain. I am fairly good at math and I feel that this shouldn't be this hard to figure out. I must be missing something easy.
Thanks again for all the comments.
Recharge doesn't begin until cast time ends.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Hmm, I thought that neutrino bolt (or something like that) was great because you could easily get the recharge under that cast time, which made it basically auto. I guess I am remembering that wrong. At least the mechanics of it.
Thanks for the info. That makes everything makes sense now.
Smite with a purple proc in it does better DPA then both Midnight Grasp and Siphon life. Thus, even if you could run MG+SL as a full chain, you'd do more damage per second with MG+Smite+SL+Smite.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Are you sure about that?|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Smite with a purple proc in it does better DPA then both Midnight Grasp and Siphon life. Thus, even if you could run MG+SL as a full chain, you'd do more damage per second with MG+Smite+SL+Smite.
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Smite (50): 90.8 base damage, 1.188 sec Arcanatime
MG (50): 189.9 base damage, 2.244 sec Arcanatime
Siphon (50): 134.9 base damage, 2.112 sec Arcanatime
Hecatomb: 107.1 damage, 33% chance
Toss in some basic +dam slotting (95%), and you get...
Smite + Hecatomb: 178.8 DPA = (((90.8 * 1.95) + (107.1 * .33))/ 1.188)
MG + Hecatomb: 180.8 DPA = (((189.9 * 1.95) + (107.1 * .33))/ 2.244)
Siphon + Hecatomb: 141.3 DPA = (((134.9 * 1.95) + (107.1 * .33))/ 2.112)
Siphon is the attack that pulls your DPS down, but that's to be expected considering its secondary effect. It's not apt to state, however, that Smite has better DPA that either MG or Siphon, since, once you actually factor in +dam enhancement, MG still maintains an obvious advantage.
Quote:
*pokes head in nervously*|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Are you sure about that?
Smite (50): 90.8 base damage, 1.188 sec Arcanatime MG (50): 189.9 base damage, 2.244 sec Arcanatime Siphon (50): 134.9 base damage, 2.112 sec Arcanatime Hecatomb: 107.1 damage, 33% chance Toss in some basic +dam slotting (95%), and you get... Smite + Hecatomb: 178.8 DPA = (((90.8 * 1.95) + (107.1 * .33))/ 1.188) MG + Hecatomb: 180.8 DPA = (((189.9 * 1.95) + (107.1 * .33))/ 2.244) Siphon + Hecatomb: 141.3 DPA = (((134.9 * 1.95) + (107.1 * .33))/ 2.112) Siphon is the attack that pulls your DPS down, but that's to be expected considering its secondary effect. It's not apt to state, however, that Smite has better DPA that either MG or Siphon, since, once you actually factor in +dam enhancement, MG still maintains an obvious advantage. |
But isn't the point that if you put it in Smite it can go off twice per chain compared to once in the other powers?
*flees*
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An Mg>Smite>Siphon>Smite attack string with the Hecatomb proc in Smite is going to do more damage than the same string with the proc in MG (entirely due to getting to use the superior damage proc twice as often; it's also a comparatively minor increase, since it's a question of ~5 DPS; I generally put Hecatomb into MG rather than Smite simply due to the set having better rech enhancement than ToD), but that doesn't change the fact that MG will still have better DPA than Smite with identical slotting conditions (which is what I was saying).
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
But isn't the point that if you put it in Smite it can go off twice per chain compared to once in the other powers?
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Quote:
To be fair, Shred didn't say Smite had better DPA than either MG or SL. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
It's not apt to state, however, that Smite has better DPA that either MG or Siphon, since, once you actually factor in +dam enhancement, MG still maintains an obvious advantage.
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He said (Smite + a Purple Proc) had better DPA than MG or SL (which I took to mean "MG or SL without a Proc").
Since the Melee Damage Purple Proc is unique, you can pick only one attack to slot it into. Are you going to pick an attack that you fire off once per chain, or an attack that you fire off twice per chain? Especially considering that Smite's comparatively low recharge needs (6 seconds, needs to be 2.112 meaning 235% Global Recharge) mean you can slot it with a SECOND damage proc. By comparison; SL can also skimp on extra recharge, but works best with extra healing enhancement (10 secs, needs 217% Global Recharge) but MG definitely needs all the recharge it can get (15 seconds, needs 335% Global Recharge).
Besides, using Base damage values:
Smite + MG + Smite + SL is
(90.8 + 189.9 + 90.8 + 134.9)/(1.188 + 2.244 + 1.188 + 2.112) = 75.22 DPA
MG + SL (if you could get it) is
(189.9 + 134.9)/(2.244 + 2.112) = 74.56 DPA
So even WITHOUT factoring in Procs, Shred is correct when he says "even if you could run MG+SL as a full chain, you'd do more damage per second with MG+Smite+SL+Smite".
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This is true, but it's not due to some inherent flaw in MG, but rather the low comparative DPA of Siphon Life. From a sheer numerical perspective, Smite isn't the best attack in a top tier DM attack string, no matter how you slot it. MG is. Smite is an excellent attack, but it's not better than MG (not that it should be, considering the low slotting requirements and early availability).
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Originally Posted by MaelwysAlts
So even WITHOUT factoring in Procs, Shred is correct when he says "even if you could run MG+SL as a full chain, you'd do more damage per second with MG+Smite+SL+Smite".
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Quote:
Only when you take the slotting potential of MG and Smite, given the recharge constraints of a top-end build, to be identical. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
This is true, but it's not due to some inherent flaw in MG, but rather the low comparative DPA of Siphon Life. From a sheer numerical perspective, Smite isn't the best attack in a top tier DM attack string, no matter how you slot it. MG is. Smite is an excellent attack, but it's not better than MG (not that it should be, considering the low slotting requirements and early availability).
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Consider, for example, the following:
Smite slotted with the Purple Melee Proc, the Mako's Bite Lethal Proc and the Cloud Senses Damage Proc, for example. Plus a Hecatomb Acc/Dam/Rech, a Hecatomb Dam and a Mako's Bite Acc/Dam/End/Rech to make it up to 98% Dam/45% Acc/45% Rech.
MG slotted with the Mako's Bite Damage Proc, Plus Mako's Bite Acc/Dam/End/Rech, Mako's Bite Dam/End, Mako's Bite Dam/Rech, Crushing Impact Dam/Rech and Midnight Grasp Acc/Immob/Rech to make it up to 98% Dam/45% Acc/98% Rech.
The Smite-MG-Smite-SL chain requires 335% Total Recharge (-194% in the above case from Base/Slotting = 141% further from Hasten/Set Bonuses) to make MG fit into the chain, and 235% Recharge (-145% in the above case from Base/Slotting = 90% further from Hasten/Set Bonuses) to make Smite fit the chain. So even if you slot MG up fully for recharge and slot Smite up fully for procs, the bottleneck in the build is still MG.
I make the average DPA for the above to be 189 DPA (MG) and 219 DPA (Smite). Removing the Makos Proc and using the full set of Hecatomb in Smite plus the Cloud Senses Proc (to give more Global Recharge at the expense of DPS) lowers the DPA of Smite to 209 DPA.
Basically, If you take the two attacks on their own merit, outside of any constraints of attack chains, then yes: MG wins. However Smite has far, far more leeway for Procs and other "interesting slotting" than MG when considering the constraints of a top-end build running the standard Smite-MG-Smite-SL chain. If you take advantage of that leeway, then Smite definitely pushes above MG in terms of DPA.
I currently have a (mids) softcapped build with 228% global recharge. Is SL + MG as a seemless attack chain going to work? I have tried to figure out the numbers and nothing is making sense. Especially when I try to use Arcanatime. I give up. Help please.