This one seems like a no-brainer to me: The sucking endurance void that is Dark Regeneration would allow a very high endurance DA survive MUCH more than a high endurance Invuln. That is to say, between decent resists, hopefully some okay defenses and a button that will heal you to full EVERY. FIFTEEN. SECONDS. (That's with 3 50 common io recharge[11 seconds with hasten]), you're doing much better with DA. Unless your primary has VERY serious mitigation that affects an entire mob consistently, DA will almost always pull ahead.
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What do you plan on fighting?
Inv has that psi hole that no amount of high end investment can fill, but u can definitely throw inf at it to get 70% s/l resists and capped defenses to everything other than psi.
DA will never cap defense to everything on a Brute (but it can cap or get close to capping it on Tankers and some Scrappers) the way Inv can, but that's why it has no Psi hole (altho the energy hole really hurts considering it's probably the 3rd most common damage type) and has a great heal for dealing with everything other than soloing AVs.
So back to the question of what do you intend to fight with that high end build?
I know the video isn't of a brute, but Dark Armor Sucks shows the kind of potential Dark Armor really has.
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I've never had an issue with Energy Damage; I laugh at Malta and Rikti. And as far as the whole AV thing goes, my Dark/Dark/Soul Brute soloed Recluse at AV status in the Patron arc, soloed Sister Psyche and Numina (both Heroes, and I was only 41 at the time), and took on Synapse in the AE with only a little trouble.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
DA will never cap defense to everything on a Brute (but it can cap or get close to capping it on Tankers and some Scrappers) the way Inv can, but that's why it has no Psi hole (altho the energy hole really hurts considering it's probably the 3rd most common damage type) and has a great heal for dealing with everything other than soloing AVs. |
I've played DA straight to 50 and Invul into the late 40's, and I have to say it'd be like comparing apples to oranges. They both serve different purposes and mitigate damage in different ways.
Invul will allow you to take on most damage types and stand there taking minimal damage, until a Psionic enemy comes along and ravages your face. The upsides with Invul are stacked Defense and Resistance, and a high amount of resistance when your defenses are broken. The downside is the gigantic, gaping hole that lets Psi damage through, even when using Unstoppable.
Dark Armor will allow you to take on foes with Psi, Toxic, and Negative Energy damage without batting an eyelash. While it's nowhere near as out-of-the-box hardy as Invul is, with the right player and the right build it can be a veritable monster. While the resists for S/L tend to be low, the set has a very VERY powerful self-resurrect that applies a magnitude 30(!!!) stun on autohit, allowing you to just get back up with no problems from any surrounding enemy. It also has the single most powerful self-heal in the entire game. The biggest drawback is it's endurance cost. Pair it with a primary that has end-drain (see Dark Melee) and you're golden.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
With just SOs or basic IOs Invuln is better. The only thing you can really do with Invuln with Set IOs is make it better at what it's already good at.
With a high end Set IO build, Dark Armor has more potential. Add some defense through IOs and you've got a character that can take on just about anything with little or no issue.
My wife has a DA/Fire tank that is softcapped to S/L/E/N and has a good amount of defense to F/C. That tank can do some ridiculous stuff.
I have a BS/DA scrapper that WAS softcapped until the BotZ changes, and even now with about 35% to ranged and AoE he's still a beast.
I haven't leveled a DA brute, but you should be able to do comparable stuff with it. It has a couple drawbacks compared to tanks and scrappers: It doesn't get as much benefit from the Fighting pool as tanks, and it's base resistances are a little lower, and it doesn't have access to a primary set with a +Defense power (Katana and Broadsword both have one)
Even with those drawbacks in mind, DA can do some ridonkulous things in the hands of a competent player. Invuln is good, but it doesn't get as much benefit from set bonuses as DA.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
This is great information, I wold intend on creating an all around character. I have a regen currently that can do more then people assume regens can do, i've thought of a DM/DA and also a SS/Invul, I want to be able to make a big difference on a team, but also be able to solo Oro arcs and I solo/duo tf's alot. i've been saving up some cash to choose what type of toon i want to sink some cash into and have been looking at both builds for some time. I would most likley make a Brute of both, as it suits me very well. But this makes me excited about both. If anyone has a personal preference and why, i am all ears at this point.
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AV soloing is a perk of DM, not DA. I've done it with DM/DA and DM/ElA (before Energize) on mostly SOs and failed miserably with SM/DA on a mostly IOed build.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I've never had an issue with Energy Damage; I laugh at Malta and Rikti. And as far as the whole AV thing goes, my Dark/Dark/Soul Brute soloed Recluse at AV status in the Patron arc, soloed Sister Psyche and Numina (both Heroes, and I was only 41 at the time), and took on Synapse in the AE with only a little trouble.
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And reducing Malta and Rikti to manageable levels is a function of //Soul and having access to the best debuff from Dark Miasma.
Don't get me wrong, Dark/Dark/Soul is an extremely survivable, single target oriented build. But it's more a reflection of synergy between powersets than a testament to how good just one particular component is.
I'm guessing Dark/Invul/Soul would be tougher for regular mobs until it runs into a group of fortunatas or wisps or Numi.
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I can assure you that Obsidian Shield was the reason I kicked Numina's and Psyche's butts. Plus, Dechs' Dark tank has taken on Recluse too, and he's /Fire Melee. It's all in how you play and your know-how of the set. |
Originally Posted by tarrantm
AV soloing is a perk of DM, not DA. I've done it with DM/DA and DM/ElA (before Energize) on mostly SOs and failed miserably with SM/DA on a mostly IOed build.
And reducing Malta and Rikti to manageable levels is a function of //Soul and having access to the best debuff from Dark Miasma. |
And yes, Darkest Night does help considerably. But that doesn't mean I can't take them without it. It's all about being up-front with damage and being fast with your self-heal.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
No Dark Armor thread should go without a mention of the ToE proc, which will turn Dark Regeneration into an end recovery power rather often, given a spawn worth using it in.
Having played both sets to the top, my vote goes with DA, simply because that which cannot kill me in fifteen seconds will never kill me. Inv is a great set too though, really top shelf and most people would probably prefer it.
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There's no doubt that DA is the way to go for Psi resists and that's because of Obsidian Shield and while it explains being able to stand upto Numi and Psyche, it doesn't explain Recluse. And bringing up Tanks in a Brute comparison isn't reasonable in the least due to Tanks being able to softcap DA while Brutes cannot. Learn 2 play isn't a valid argument when someone achieves similar results with a similar build (DM/DA/Soul) but cannot achieve those same results once one variable is changed (SM/DA/Soul).|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I can assure you that Obsidian Shield was the reason I kicked Numina's and Psyche's butts. Plus, Dechs' Dark tank has taken on Recluse too, and he's /Fire Melee. It's all in how you play and your know-how of the set.
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| And yes, Darkest Night does help considerably. But that doesn't mean I can't take them without it. It's all about being up-front with damage and being fast with your self-heal. |
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I want to apologize if I sounded like I was saying "learn2play," as that wasn't my intent. I was just saying that different people play different, and often that achieves different outcomes.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
There's no doubt that DA is the way to go for Psi resists and that's because of Obsidian Shield and while it explains being able to stand upto Numi and Psyche, it doesn't explain Recluse. And bringing up Tanks in a Brute comparison isn't reasonable in the least due to Tanks being able to softcap DA while Brutes cannot. Learn 2 play isn't a valid argument when someone achieves similar results with a similar build (DM/DA/Soul) but cannot achieve those same results once one variable is changed (SM/DA/Soul).
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
Well I didn't think you were holding back on the damage and being overly slow on self-heals. I was assuming a modicum of competency on your part, I assure you ;p
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Even though brutes cannot soft cap dark armor, I am thinking it is truly unnecessary. Out of the box the heal in dark armor is insane. With the right mix of (enhancers/build out) getting the levels up all around a little more, the global rech down, and a few perks thrown in (the end proc in heal, 3 KB prot, maybe a few other pricey procs) then the build would be a frankenmonster. I can see that, hopefully you catch my drift, painted in broad strokes. Maybe not as fun/easy to play as str/will, with no toggle juggling, end/healh monitoring, 2nd set button mashing, etc. But quite possibly much stronger than str/will. Definitely the potential there.
My question is can it be solo'd from level 1, as a badger to get all content? Or is this a late blooming set that in the mid game will really be a bear to complete objectives with? Dark Melee is a late blooming set, and obviously the dark armor stuff will come in slow. Will a player be able to throws in the right LOTGs, Procs, and even have the powers necessary to grind 25-38 content with the ease that str/will players would on SOs?
This debate could go on for years. Both sets have some weakness but both you can mitigate.
Invul has the Psi hole which can be mitigated at the high end. First any formost if you cap your typed defense, your positional defenses get very solid by defualt. This gives you between 20-30 defence on your positionals, which does infact protect you form psi damage. Some people believe it does not. I would advise them to check the to hit numbers when being attack. Secondly, pick up darkest night for those rare instances were you run in to a problem with PSI. I have it on my Inul brute but never use it because I never need it due to positional defense.
Invul strength is that you get higher resists againt lethal and smashing the most common froms of damage and you get some very base typed defense. The vast majority of the time Invul will be extremely tough.
DA is will known for its END sucking. This can be mitigated in a great number of ways. With physical perfection out there it gets even simpler. KB can be gotten very easy. You can build DA defense right up there and have better balance with resists. DA will be tougher in some situations but not the majority. My first Brute was a dm/da brute it was painful going prior to IOs. With IOs and HAMIs they can be put together very nicely.
At the low end with SO/Generic IOs invul is tougher. At the Higher both are completely unbelievable. If you understand how a set funcutions and toss a few billion into any set you get similair results.
/Cipher
Hello all,
This forums has brought me to try many different types of brutes and is always a great place for information. In your personal opinions DA Vs Invul people, what secondary would benifit more from a High end build?
Please discuss.
Thanks in advace,
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