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You know what this reminds me of? GearScore in WoW. Players there can't always rely on a player's skill, so they opt to grade people based on their gear instead. They hope that, in the absense of skill, the gear will carry the person through the fights. |
Originally Posted by streetlight
I wouldn't say it's impossible for them to hold aggro, just difficult. And making it difficult means that any WP/* is always in danger of failing at half of his job description. I much prefer teaming with a tank that can get by without all the extra work and time, assuming the tank is in a tanking role and not just scrapping or off-tanking. Even AOE-heavy, heavily-IO'd WP/* builds have problems on teams with Scrappers & Blasters. When you're teaming around a tank (not a necessity, but helpful, IMO), that tank needs to be able to lock down aggro without effort, despite what comes in from teammates. Anything less is, well, less.
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In this case, you can't rely on skill to hold aggro, so instead you rely on super powerful threat auras. I can't really blame you, since the number of people who really get threat mechanics is pretty small. To be honest, the people who lose aggro on WP Tankers are the same ones that lose aggro to Brutes and (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers.
I can regularly hold aggro over other Tankers, (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers, and Brutes on my WP - including fights like the STF where I herd all four Patrons - without worry. I'm fully aware that I'm the minority and not what you'd expect if you invited a random WP to your group.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
Think about it this way: if the Tanker's phone rings or the dog needs to go out in the middle of a fight, what are the odds of that Tanker losing aggro and having the pack fall apart? An Invuln or Stone can get up, handle whatever needs handled, grab some food and a drink, and come back to a happy, healthy team. WP won't. It may be alive still - the set has great survivability - but one or more teammates likely won't be.
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1) The afk Tanker can hold aggro on a maximum of 10 mobs (compared to the 17 cap) and only if they're all within the radius of his aura (possible, but not guaranteed).
2) I don't think a Tanker should be able to take a bio break mid combat and hold aggro. That's a ridiculous assertion. A Blaster can't be expected to wipe out mobs while afk. a Controller can't control mobs while afk. Etc. You don't find it at all depressing that you're holding aggro on up to 10 mobs by just being there?
The more I get involved in threat discussions, the more absurd CoX's threat mechanics appear to me. (I should write a longer post about it, sometime..)
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
But the assertion was that Willpower was in all ways superior to Invulnerability, and I am pointing out that there is a conceivable "corner case" where Willpower might be overwhelmed by something that Invulnerability (or Granite) would shrug off. And in the era of Mission Architect, it's impossible to say "But this never occurs in game." I've seen some very nasty missions that appear to be designed to bring down Tankers.
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What I'd say is a more real weakness for WP is def debuffs mixed with exotic damage. Pure s/l def debuffs (like Cimeroran's) aren't scary. Cimeroran's and Nicti though? That's where things get interesting!
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Never played WoW, but familiar with the concept. I'd say it applies here, as well. Some builds just don't work as well as others for given purposes. WP doesn't work as well as others for aggro management. Better is better.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
You know what this reminds me of? GearScore in WoW. Players there can't always rely on a player's skill, so they opt to grade people based on their gear instead. They hope that, in the absense of skill, the gear will carry the person through the fights.
In this case, you can't rely on skill to hold aggro, so instead you rely on super powerful threat auras. I can't really blame you, since the number of people who really get threat mechanics is pretty small. To be honest, the people who lose aggro on WP Tankers are the same ones that lose aggro to Brutes and (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers. |
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| I can regularly hold aggro over other Tankers, (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers, and Brutes on my WP - including fights like the STF where I herd all four Patrons - without worry. I'm fully aware that I'm the minority and not what you'd expect if you invited a random WP to your group. |
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| 2) I don't think a Tanker should be able to take a bio break mid combat and hold aggro. That's a ridiculous assertion. A Blaster can't be expected to wipe out mobs while afk. a Controller can't control mobs while afk. Etc. You don't find it at all depressing that you're holding aggro on up to 10 mobs by just being there? |
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| Ahh, I see. In that case, I'd say that's the same for any Tanker, then. Throw in some Psi damage (especially if you're using MA as a metric) and you'll be able to drop Invulns and Granites easier than you'd drop WP due to burst s/l. Again, it can be at the the 90% cap 2 min out of every 5 min. (I'm assuming we're talking about IOed builds here.) |
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, mind you. I prefer to have the right tools for the job, whatever that job may be. Barring a very specific team purpose (e.g. Master, Raid, difficult TF), I probably won't care much about team makeup or slotting. In those circumstances, though, it helps to be better.
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I've managed to out-tank pretty much everything I've stumbled across in the game sans a Taunting Brute, which I've never run across. In the case of a Taunting Brute, I'd loose aggro anyways because of how threat mechanics work. (Damage is a large portion of it, and a Brute has the same threat mod, taunt duration/mag, and deals substantially more damage.)|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Never played WoW, but familiar with the concept. I'd say it applies here, as well. Some builds just don't work as well as others for given purposes. WP doesn't work as well as others for aggro management. Better is better.
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The biggest factor in aggro generation isn't a Tanker's aura - it's Taunt. A stronger aura can make things easier against allies w/o taunt effects, but it will be quickly overwhelmed by allies that do.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
Mechanics are what they are and that's what we're working with. Tankers are melee controllers in large respect and Controllers are certainly capable of similar (better really) effects. A Controller limited to Mag2 holds and immobs isn't going to be very good at controlling. A tanker limited to a Mag3, tiny duration taunt aura isn't that good at controlling either in comparison to his peers.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
Which is a GearScore argument if ever there was one. Are you IO'd? If so, how heavily and how properly? Are you built to handle the threats the team is planning to face?
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I'm not saying you need IOs - I've tanked on an Ice Tank in the 18-22 range in SOs before the I7 critter accuracy change (ie: higher lvl/rank mobs got tohit buffs instead of accuracy). I won't lie and say it was entirely smooth sailing, but doable. I've even tanked Lord Recluse on a (not-defensively built) DM/Invuln back in I9/10 before we knew the specifics of all the towers.
To be honest, if we include team buffs/inspirations/etc, most of these corner cases are easily mitigated.
Taunt auras apply a taunt duration at a tick rate. If the taunt duration doesn't last the tick rate then a npc might turn to face someone else before another tick is applied. This also means that any npc the moment they're outside of the aura might no longer be both taunted and interested in the tanker. With such an aura team members might be best off waiting for a tanker to use a pbaoe or taunt or use a heavy ST attack as its likely got a wide area gauntlet before attacking. It basically is best to allow mobs in range of such an aura for a sec or two before attacking. Should the tanker move slightly an npc might of exited the aura only momentarily to become lost aggro.
My allowing a Willpower to consolidate aggro in order to not get aggro or for others to not get it is no different to what I would do teaming with any tanker because most any tanker can move through a group without their aura ticking on any of the mobs.
Different auras do different things and be debuffed, the debuff effects their ability to generate threat. If a damage auras taunt component relies on tohit then under tohit debuffs it could miss and be worse than willpowers.
All in all I wouldn't team with a WP any differently than I would anyother tank. I'll see a Pbaoe before I aoe or ST attack through a tanker if I am not sure.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I still say a Kin. Kin works well with characters who are self sufficient by boosting aspects every character will enjoy having boosted while simultaneously weakening the enemy. There's no waste with a Kin. At low levels the giant heal will keep the WP afloat, and at later levels Fulcrum Shift will help him move forward.
Simple question: two tankers, same secondary, same AOEs, both with taunt. One is Invuln and one is WP. Which is better at getting and holding aggro?
It's Invuln, in case you were wondering. Make it Ice or Dark or anything but WP and the answer will be anything but WP. The others likely won't have to bat an eyelash to keep everything well-controlled. Teammates won't have to wait that little bit longer for things to be pulled together. Foes at the edge won't peel off quite so often.
Aura-wise, you're looking at a Mag3 taunt for 1.25 seconds vs. Mag4 taunt for 13.5 or 16.9 seconds. IIRC, taunt auras tick every two seconds? Anything other than WP stacks at 2 seconds, again at 4 seconds, 6, 8, 10, and 12. That's at least seven stacks for any non-WP (Invuln stacks at least two more). Tough to beat a Mag4 effect stacking that often. On the other side of things, you have a Mag 3 taunt not stacking.
Let's say we've got a big herd: 15 opponents. The taunt aura only hits 10 per tick, right? So you move a bit every couple seconds and you can keep the whole thing together thanks to the magic of stacking taunt aura ticks. In the meantime, you can attack as you will. Or you play WP and have to rely on something else. Let's hope nobody is using KB, right?
Admittedly, few targets will get hit by the taunt aura when the tanker first runs in, but they'll follow the tanker and get hit with with another tick as soon as possible (barring aggro cap). Then another, and so on. That first tick rarely does much for aggro management. This is why it's easy to break herds early on. Just showing up in the wrong place is enough in a lot of cases.
Taunt (the power, not the aura) is great, but it only hits five opponents and if you're taunting you're not attacking. If you're a WP/* facing larger groups, which most late-game teams will be, then you're going to be spending a lot of time hoping that the five you want are the five you get and that nobody is peeling off anywhere else. It's also not exclusive to WP.
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The aura's taunt does not stack. It merely refreshes every tick.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Aura-wise, you're looking at a Mag3 taunt for 1.25 seconds vs. Mag4 taunt for 13.5 or 16.9 seconds. IIRC, taunt auras tick every two seconds? Anything other than WP stacks at 2 seconds, again at 4 seconds, 6, 8, 10, and 12. That's at least seven stacks for any non-WP (Invuln stacks at least two more). Tough to beat a Mag4 effect stacking that often. On the other side of things, you have a Mag 3 taunt not stacking.
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Few people realize, however, that threat is a function of taunt magnitude as well as taunt duration remaining. The RttC taunt is weaker by two metrics.
Willpower tanks are by no means gimped when it comes to holding aggro. Streetlight is correct that if all other things are equal (including player skill) the willpower tank will not have aggro, but who cares? Few damn teams need a tank, let alone a second one, and the willpower tank played well will be just as good as any other tank played with similar skill.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Seriously, alpha strikes stopped being a concern after adding Tough/Weave to my build in SOs.
By the way, WP can hit the res cap while under the effects of SoW, which is up 40% of the time.
[And whoever neg-repped me for calmly stating my opinion is a pinhead.]
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog