This is the post-36 Transference build I was talking about:
+10.5% DamageBuff(ALL)
+5% Defense(Energy/Neg)
+2.5% Defense(Ranged)
+2.25% Max End
>>>+101.3% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
+2.5% Enhancement(Confused)
+9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
+2.75% Enhancement(Terrorized)
+57.2 HP (5.63%) HitPoints
+Knockback (Mag -7)
+Knockup (Mag -7)
+MezResist(Confused) 12.5%
+MezResist(Held) 12.5%
+MezResist(Immobilize) 17.5%
+MezResist(Sleep) 14.7%
+MezResist(Stun) 12.5%
+MezResist(Terrorized) 12.5%
+12.5% (0.21 End/sec) Recovery
+6% (0.25 HP/sec) Regeneration
+2.5% Resistance(Smashing)
+1.26% Resistance(Fire)
+1.26% Resistance(Cold)
+3% RunSpeed
+2% XPDebtProtection
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blind -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(3), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(7), Hold-I(17)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(13), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(15), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(15), Acc-I(31)
Level 2: Deceive -- Mlais-Acc/Rchg(A), Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(5), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(5), Mlais-Conf/Rng(7), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31), Pplx-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31)
Level 4: Spectral Wounds -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(37), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 6: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Krma-ResKB(40)
Level 14: Flash -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(17), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(21), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(21), Hold-I(23)
Level 16: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(19), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(23), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(25)
Level 20: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 22: Speed Boost -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 24: Superior Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(43), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(43), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(43), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), RedFtn-Def(46)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- Abys-Acc/Rchg(A), Abys-EndRdx/Fear(27), Abys-Acc/EndRdx(27), Abys-Fear/Rng(29), Abys-Acc/Fear/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Grant Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 30: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Transference -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(36), Adrenal-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(36), Adrenal-EndMod/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- ImpSkn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpSkn-ResDam/Rchg(45), ImpSkn-EndRdx/Rchg(45), ImpSkn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ImpSkn-Status(46)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Acc/KB(48), KinCrsh-Rchg/KB(48), KinCrsh-Rechg/EndRdx(48), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(50), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(50)
Level 49: Mental Blast -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 2: Ninja Run
As you can see 101.3% GLobal Recharge, plus Haste (70%) plus at least two Siphon Speeds (20% each), plus say 99% IOed Recharge = over 310% recharge boost. That's just about as good as I have ever seen it.
I mean, Flash and PA every minute, Blind, Deceive, and a 40% Heal up every 2 seconds, Transference up in 7 sec, FS every 15 sec, perma Hasten and IndomWill. PLUS with SuperSpeed+Celerity I have invis (althogh I also have it with SuperiorInvis) and can also use GroupInvis to help stealth through mishes, I think this character is a jack of all trades swiss army knife - he can kin, he can control, etc.
Cool?
For Great Justice!
I don't have Mids where I am, so I'm not sure how many 5% Recharges you have. But consider this: Move the Perplex out of Deceive to add a slot to Transfusion. Then slot Transfusion with 5 Doctored Wounds and an Accuracy.
Then take that Impskin Status out of MoB, put it in Transference and 6-slot the Efficacy Adaptor set for another 5% recharge.
The two 5% recharge will allow you to drop one of your LotG Recharges. That way, you can drop Grant Invis and Stealth (useless mules) and replace them with Combat Jumping for one LotG Recharge and Immob protection. And you have one more power slot for something more useful than Grant Invis or Stealth.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
Great ideas. I went ahead and applied those, however, after replacing Grant Invis with Combat Jumping, I wondered if I shouldn't grab hover in place of Stealth. After all, I couls still put the LotG in it, and it would give me vertical travel if my jetpack ever runs out.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I don't have Mids where I am, so I'm not sure how many 5% Recharges you have. But consider this: Move the Perplex out of Deceive to add a slot to Transfusion. Then slot Transfusion with 5 Doctored Wounds and an Accuracy.
Then take that Impskin Status out of MoB, put it in Transference and 6-slot the Efficacy Adaptor set for another 5% recharge. The two 5% recharge will allow you to drop one of your LotG Recharges. That way, you can drop Grant Invis and Stealth (useless mules) and replace them with Combat Jumping for one LotG Recharge and Immob protection. And you have one more power slot for something more useful than Grant Invis or Stealth. |
I am not seeing many other powers that I really want to take.
For Great Justice!
Quote:
You can actually carry at least two jet packs (Raptor Pack and Jet Pack) now-a-days, so if one runs out, you can use the other until you can buy a new one (Raptor Pack in the Shard, Jet Pack is a craftable temp power recipe, and you get one in the Positron TF Part II). I tend to be very stingy with my use of the Raptor pack, since I use the GvE Jump Jet most of the time I need verticle travel. Most of my level 50 characters still have plenty of time left on the original Raptor pack.|
Originally Posted by Metatron_NA
Great ideas. I went ahead and applied those, however, after replacing Grant Invis with Combat Jumping, I wondered if I shouldn't grab hover in place of Stealth. After all, I couls still put the LotG in it, and it would give me vertical travel if my jetpack ever runs out.
I am not seeing many other powers that I really want to take. |
Personally, I can think of several additional powers I would like. Increase Density is a nice but short buff for teammates, but you can use it to un-mez them and provide -knockback and a little bit of Resistance (It also takes a Steadfast -knockback IO in the default slot!!). Inertial Reduction if you want team super-jump. And I would consider Repel -- it is the only significant defensive power in the Kinetics set and it gets a bum rap . . . it works pretty well as a "panic button" power, and can also be used to position foes into AoEs or corners -- and it can be fun to play "Hellion Soccer."
I have used Repel in the past when my team was getting overrun . . . a quick trip through the group of baddies with Repel on and all the foes get knocked back from the teammates . . . and if you really want, I think it can be slotted (if you want to 6-slot it) with the Kinetic Crash set for some nice bonus. But I don't think you have the slots, so an EndRdx works great.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I agree that Repel doesn't get enough respect. It's really not that bad a power, considering that it:
1) Is auto hit
2) Does not cause movement suppression (much bigger deal for Force Field than Kin, however, since Siphon Speed also doesn't suppress)
The trick to using it is understanding that just because its a toggle doesnt mean you should leave it on 24/7. That usage is guaranteed to disappoint. The second thing to remember is that to really make it work you have to be pretty aggressive. For example if a boss is giving you trouble you don't wait for him to run to you, you toggle on and run at the boss full speed so you catch him first. If you wait for enemies to run to you their attacks will hit you, but if you run at them the attack isn't queued and they fly back before they can get one off. This is especially useful if you punt > Decieve > punt Decieve to stack mezzes safely. It's not an every fight tactic but does work well on certain enemies. Repel is also hilariously fantastic against Night Widows if I recall (haven't done it in a while).
Here's the build that I use.
With stacked siphon speed you will get perma PA.
Stone Mastery is the best Epic for Ill/Kin if you're soloing, I can solo at +2/x8 quite easily with this. The Psy Epic works well in teams when you're hanging back and buffing. Hover and Siphon Speed is a nice combo for this as it allows you to move around at a good rate while avoiding the AoEs below.
Overall Ill/Kin is a vastly underrated combination, aside from combating AVs and GMs it is more capable than either Ill/Rad or Ill/Storm and will out damage them in most situations.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Psiphon with psiphon power: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blind -- Entrpc-Acc/Dmg(A), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Entrpc-Dmg/Rchg(7), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Hold-I(13), Entrpc-Heal%(31)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(3), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(37), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Dct'dW-Heal(46), Acc-I(48)
Level 2: Spectral Wounds -- Entrpc-Acc/Dmg(A), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Entrpc-Dmg/Rchg(9), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Entrpc-Heal%(34)
Level 4: Deceive -- CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(A), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(5), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(15), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(25), CoPers-Conf(50)
Level 6: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Krma-ResKB(31)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(11), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 14: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- S'bndAl-Build%(A), Dmg-I(19), Acc-I(19), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(23), EndMod-I(25)
Level 22: Speed Boost -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 24: Flash -- UbrkCons-Hold(A), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(31), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(40), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(46), BasGaze-Acc/Hold(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- Abys-Acc/EndRdx(A), Abys-EndRdx/Fear(27), Abys-Acc/Rchg(27), Abys-Fear/Rng(29), Abys-Acc/Fear/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Inertial Reduction -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(34), RechRdx-I(37), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 32: Phantasm -- C'Arms-Acc/Dmg(A), C'Arms-Dmg/EndRdx(33), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'Arms-Acc/Rchg(33), EdctM'r-PetDef(34)
Level 35: Transference -- Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(36), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(36), Efficacy-EndMod(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(43)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Fissure -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg(42), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(42), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Posi-Dmg/Rng(43)
Level 44: Seismic Smash -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Rock Armor -- DefBuff-I(A), LkGmblr-Def(48), LkGmblr-Rchg+(48)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 0: Ninja Run
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
I beg to differ that Ill/Kin is "more capable than either Ill/Rad or Ill/Storm." Ill/Kin may be more offensive, but is not nearly as flexible. Kinetics does not have the synergy with Illusion that Rad does . . . or Storm for that matter. Kinetics has no debuffs to make Phantom Army better. If you don't take Repel (and very few do), Kinetics has virtually no defensive powers. Rad and Storm have more tools to help the team when things are going wrong. (For example, Flash+EM Pulse will hold everything short of an AV.) Being a Controller is not just doing damage.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
Overall Ill/Kin is a vastly underrated combination, aside from combating AVs and GMs it is more capable than either Ill/Rad or Ill/Storm and will out damage them in most situations.
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
It's true that the debuffs in Rad and Storm mean that while Phantom Army are out they will do more damage than a Kin. Kinetics however has got Siphon Speed so that PA will be out more often, during this time not only are they doing damage they are also tanking and thus increasing the survivability of both yourself and the team. The recommended slotting for PA is 3 recharge then a mixture of damage and accuracy so that PA are available as often as possible - this slotting is closer to the increased uptime of /Kin than it is to the increased damage of /Rad from debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I beg to differ that Ill/Kin is "more capable than either Ill/Rad or Ill/Storm." Ill/Kin may be more offensive, but is not nearly as flexible. Kinetics does not have the synergy with Illusion that Rad does . . . or Storm for that matter. Kinetics has no debuffs to make Phantom Army better. If you don't take Repel (and very few do), Kinetics has virtually no defensive powers. Rad and Storm have more tools to help the team when things are going wrong. (For example, Flash+EM Pulse will hold everything short of an AV.) Being a Controller is not just doing damage.
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In regards to defensive powers I assume that you mean "for self" as Kinetics has Increase Density which is an ally buff giving resist to damage, immob, mez etc.
Kinetics also has an extremely large heal which allows both the team and yourself to negate a lot of damage. Saying that Kinetics has no defensive powers is a bit like saying a Regen scrapper has no defensive powers - although technically true it has mitigation through heals; my current build can heal over 400HP every few seconds.
As you said stacking EMP and Flash is nice as it allows a /Rad to hold bosses as well - but better than Flash (which will all but bosses) and Fulcram Shift which will cap a teams damage?
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
A perma-PA build, or at least a build that allows PA to be out almost all the time, negates your argument that Siphon Speed makes an Ill/Kin better. PA out AND hitting more often AND doing more damage is what Ill/Rad and Ill/Storm can do. Ill/Therm and Ill/Cold have some pretty good debuffs, too.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
It's true that the debuffs in Rad and Storm mean that while Phantom Army are out they will do more damage than a Kin. Kinetics however has got Siphon Speed so that PA will be out more often, during this time not only are they doing damage they are also tanking and thus increasing the survivability of both yourself and the team. The recommended slotting for PA is 3 recharge then a mixture of damage and accuracy so that PA are available as often as possible - this slotting is closer to the increased uptime of /Kin than it is to the increased damage of /Rad from debuffs.
In regards to defensive powers I assume that you mean "for self" as Kinetics has Increase Density which is an ally buff giving resist to damage, immob, mez etc. Kinetics also has an extremely large heal which allows both the team and yourself to negate a lot of damage. Saying that Kinetics has no defensive powers is a bit like saying a Regen scrapper has no defensive powers - although technically true it has mitigation through heals; my current build can heal over 400HP every few seconds. As you said stacking EMP and Flash is nice as it allows a /Rad to hold bosses as well - but better than Flash (which will all but bosses) and Fulcram Shift which will cap a teams damage? |
Increase Density? And how often do you really use it? Do you keep the entire team boosted every minute? I mainly use it as a way to break stuns, or to help a teammate who is getting knocked back a lot. But it is way too much of a pain to keep it up on an entire team. The Rad debuffs, however, are foe-anchored toggles. Pick an anchor, and it stays on until he is dead.
With your Ill/Kin, how much do you use Phantasm? How often does he knock back your target for your 5 siphon powers? And how often do you miss? Rad's heal, buffs and debuffs never miss. Transfusion is a good heal, but it only works if you are in melee and if it hits -- mine seems to miss at just the wrong moment. (and actually, a Regen scrapper does have a power with some Smashing/Lethal Resistance, Resilliance -- just being picky.)
No question that Fulcrum Shift is a great team buff. But it becomes less effective when foes are spread out, or against single tough foes, or when your teammates are not in range of the buff because they focus on ranged damage.
My point was that an Ill/Rad is a more flexible character, with a nice mix of offense and defense, team buffing and debuffing, able to solo and team equally well. For a Melee-focused, high damage team, Ill/Kin shines, but you don't always get those teams.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
My comment was based on levelling but a perma-PA Ill/Kin will still outdamage a Perma-PA Ill/Rad.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
A perma-PA build, or at least a build that allows PA to be out almost all the time, negates your argument that Siphon Speed makes an Ill/Kin better. PA out AND hitting more often AND doing more damage is what Ill/Rad and Ill/Storm can do. Ill/Therm and Ill/Cold have some pretty good debuffs, too.
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An Ill/Kin will use PA as a supplement to it's own it's own damage and he will be operatiing at the damage cap for most of the mission.
Fulcram Shift + Siphon Power + Siphon Speed + Fissure + Seismic Smash + pet damage > Accelerate Metabolism + debuffs + pet damage + Epic damage.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Increase Density? And how often do you really use it? Do you keep the entire team boosted every minute? I mainly use it as a way to break stuns, or to help a teammate who is getting knocked back a lot. But it is way too much of a pain to keep it up on an entire team. The Rad debuffs, however, are foe-anchored toggles. Pick an anchor, and it stays on until he is dead.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
With your Ill/Kin, how much do you use Phantasm? How often does he knock back your target for your 5 siphon powers?
|
While we are on the subject of synergy and KB it's not all sweetness and light with either Rad or Storm.
Rad works best with a set with an AoE immobilise so that you can layer the debuffs and keep the mob grouped. Illusion lacks this so its effectiveness is effected by KB and computer AI (runners etc);s the mob seperates so the debuffs become less effective.
An Ill/Rad has no way to effectively reduce/negate this.
Storm has a location based debuff (Freezing Rain) which is also adversely effected by KB not only from Phantasm but also Lightning Storm.
So basically a kin can negate the effects of KB by his own positioning of which he has complete control. A /Rad or /Storm however is at the mercy of map/terrain and computer AI.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
And how often do you miss? Rad's heal, buffs and debuffs never miss. Transfusion is a good heal, but it only works if you are in melee and if it hits -- mine seems to miss at just the wrong moment.
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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
My comment was talking about Phantom Army alone, not the character as a whole. An Ill/Kin can only buff the Recharge for faster casting of PA, which is pretty meaningless once you have enough recharge for Perma-PA. The debuffs make PA do more damage and hit more often, drawing more aggro.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
My comment was based on levelling but a perma-PA Ill/Kin will still outdamage a Perma-PA Ill/Rad.
An Ill/Kin will use PA as a supplement to it's own it's own damage and he will be operatiing at the damage cap for most of the mission. Fulcram Shift + Siphon Power + Siphon Speed + Fissure + Seismic Smash + pet damage > Accelerate Metabolism + debuffs + pet damage + Epic damage. |
Once you get Fulcrum Shift at 38, I agree that an Ill/Kin will outdamage an Ill/Rad . . . for as long as it lives. An Ill/Rad will live longer, staying at range, picking off foes one by one while PA and ST keep the group distracted and the ToHit Debuff keeps them from hitting you most of the time if they do attack. Before Fulcrum Shift, I'm not sure that an Ill/Kin will outdamage an Ill/Rad.
Quote:
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I use Phantasm all of the time; the Knockback issue with Kinetics can easily be negated. After dropping PA jump to the far side of the mob so that they sit between you and the Phantasm. The Phantasm will move into melee range in an attempt to be close to you, that will allow him to be buffed (not 100% but most of the time) also any KB will take the mob towards you not away. While we are on the subject of synergy and KB it's not all sweetness and light with either Rad or Storm. Rad works best with a set with an AoE immobilise so that you can layer the debuffs and keep the mob grouped. Illusion lacks this so its effectiveness is effected by KB and computer AI (runners etc);s the mob seperates so the debuffs become less effective. An Ill/Rad has no way to effectively reduce/negate this. Storm has a location based debuff (Freezing Rain) which is also adversely effected by KB not only from Phantasm but also Lightning Storm. So basically a kin can negate the effects of KB by his own positioning of which he has complete control. A /Rad or /Storm however is at the mercy of map/terrain and computer AI. |
Phanty's knockback isn't much of a problem to me. I stay back out of melee, so Phanty usually knocks foes away from me and towards the PA and the debuffs. He makes a nice bodyguard.
Ill/Storm has its own issues and solutions. Positioning can usually deal with many of them. Hurricane and Gale lets you push foes back into groups. But most of the time, I play my Ill/Storm solo or small team, so I don't have to worry about the chaos she causes. All that knockback mitigates a lot of damage.
Quote:
| I play in melee all the time, the buffs miss occasionally but they are up so often its not an issue when playing at +2/x8. At +3 it starts to be as the amount of incoming damage threatens to overwhelm the regen, +4 definately. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
An Ill/Kin has no issues surviving, I can solo and survive +2/x8 in melee without much effort and +3/x8 at a push both without inspirations (apart from the odd BF) or Deceive. If an Ill/Rad can solo at +4/x8 then I'd say it has the edge in survivability, I doubt that it can though as the debuffs will pull more aggro than the pets can hold.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Once you get Fulcrum Shift at 38, I agree that an Ill/Kin will outdamage an Ill/Rad . . . for as long as it lives. An Ill/Rad will live longer, staying at range, picking off foes one by one while PA and ST keep the group distracted and the ToHit Debuff keeps them from hitting you most of the time if they do attack.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Before Fulcrum Shift, I'm not sure that an Ill/Kin will outdamage an Ill/Rad.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Ill/rad has a very effective way to keep foes grouped for the Rad debuffs: PA, ST, Blind and Deceive. I pick an anchor for the Rad debuffs who aggro on PA, so they don't run. Spooky can also keep them in place. It is rarely a problem, and if it is, I just Blind the anchor or Deceive a runner. No Immob needed, since PA aggro plus an occasional Deceive keep the group together.
Phanty's knockback isn't much of a problem to me. I stay back out of melee, so Phanty usually knocks foes away from me and towards the PA and the debuffs. He makes a nice bodyguard. |
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Against very high level foes, Ill/Rad shines. The toHit and Defense Debuffs allow you to fight those high level foes, while PA and Phanty's decoy keep them distracted. The Damage and Resistance debuffs make up some for the higher levels. It may not be an ideal farming toon, but Ill/Rad can handle a wider range of situations than just about any build in the game. That's why I said that it is arguably the most flexible build in the game.
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I stand by my original comment though outside of AV soloing an Ill/Kin will outperform an Ill/Rad due to the higher damage output - the new mission settings play to the strength of /Kin.
Due to it's ability to solo AV's Ill/Rad is the more flexible as it spans a wider spectrum of play - it might not be the quickest but it gets the job done.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
I would give Ill/Rad, Ill/Kin, Ill/Storm, and Ill/Cold all high marks. There isn't a "best" one.
As far as any of them being the "most powerful," "most flexible," etc, I would just say not particularly. Illusion Control is basically a Mastermind set with a few controls thrown in. It's very good at the same things Masterminds tend to be good at and has one really good single target mezz (Deceive). Like a Mastermind it does well solo and against AVs. It's AoE control is uniformly third-rate compared even to Fire Control. You can take a secondary to sort-of fix this, but so could any other primary. IMO while Illusion is a great set, it's barely a control set at all.
Above debates aside, having only 9% Accuracy and 10% ToHit would concern me for this build, and unfortunately the individual power accuracies reflect that.
@Illenia @Orellia
Justice Server, Virtue Server
<(',')> Hoot!
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I would include Illusion/Trick Arrow as a great pairing, too. I took one up to 50 because I wanted to try out the Trick Arrow set. TA fills a lot of the holes in the Illusion set to make a very effective character . . . besides, I really liked my character concept. I wanted a name to reflect both the Bow-n-Arrow and the Illusionist . . . He became an entertainer for the French Foreign Legion, amusing the troops with his magic tricks, trick arrow shooting and jokes. His name? Beau Jester. (I love bad puns.)
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I would give Ill/Rad, Ill/Kin, Ill/Storm, and Ill/Cold all high marks. There isn't a "best" one.
As far as any of them being the "most powerful," "most flexible," etc, I would just say not particularly. Illusion Control is basically a Mastermind set with a few controls thrown in. It's very good at the same things Masterminds tend to be good at and has one really good single target mezz (Deceive). Like a Mastermind it does well solo and against AVs. It's AoE control is uniformly third-rate compared even to Fire Control. You can take a secondary to sort-of fix this, but so could any other primary. IMO while Illusion is a great set, it's barely a control set at all. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
not having played an ill/kin i might be wrong about this.
but i don't think FS effects PA
so it seems massively under-performing to me.
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Yep, if I didn't already have a Ill/Storm and Grav/TA I'd love to try a Ill/TA. It'd be a smashing combo (as would a Grav/Storm).|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I would include Illusion/Trick Arrow as a great pairing, too. I took one up to 50 because I wanted to try out the Trick Arrow set. TA fills a lot of the holes in the Illusion set to make a very effective character . . . besides, I really liked my character concept. I wanted a name to reflect both the Bow-n-Arrow and the Illusionist . . . He became an entertainer for the French Foreign Legion, amusing the troops with his magic tricks, trick arrow shooting and jokes. His name? Beau Jester. (I love bad puns.)
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I always have to do things the awkward way around
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As discussed earlier in the post, an Ill/Kin plays differently.|
Originally Posted by Sprite Fire
not having played an ill/kin i might be wrong about this.
but i don't think FS effects PA so it seems massively under-performing to me. |
Illusion (including inexpensive perma PA through Siphon Speed) allows the controller to deal the damage in melee. While levelling I've found it comparable to my Ill/Rad but once you gain access to the epics FS plus Fissure and Seismic smash will allow you to outdamage the Ill/Rad.
Ill/Rad is the better AV soloer by a mile though.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Correct. PA cannot be buffed by anything not actually slotted in the power. That is one of the reasons that I have generally considered sets with debuffs to be a better pairing with Illusion, because the debuffs have the effect of buffing PA. The only benefit Kinetics gives to Phantom Army is higher recharge from Siphon Speed. And since Illusion only has single target damage attacks (other than Phanty's Torrent), it really can't take as much advantage of Fulcrum Shift as other controller builds.|
Originally Posted by Sprite Fire
not having played an ill/kin i might be wrong about this.
but i don't think FS effects PA so it seems massively under-performing to me. |
The combo of Fulcrum Shift and Fissure can add up to a lot of damage. But that has nothing to do with Illusion. Fulcrum Shift will give a huge damage buff to Blind and Spectral Wounds, so clearly an Ill/Kin will be able to do some pretty good damage. There are trade-offs. If you go with the Earth APP set, you give up the single target Blast from the Fire or Ice APP sets. Those blasts can give you a really nice single-target continuous attack chain of Blind-SW-Blast-SW.
Earlier in this thread, Psiphon said that he felt that Ill/Rad and Ill/Kin put out about the same amount of damage before Fulcrum Shift. I don't buy that one. Siphon Power gives a 20% buff to damage (if it hits), and can be stacked (but not for very long in those lower levels). It only affects the character and, if Phanty is close enough, your Phantasm. Rad's EF grants a 22.5% debuff that is autohit and continuous, and also buffs the damage done by PA as well as Phanty and Phanty's Decoy. I don't see how an Ill/Kin could outdamage an Ill/Rad before Fulcrum Shift (assuming both were competant players).
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Illusion ALLOWS the controller to deal the damage in melee. While playiing solo the pets are pulling the aggro from the controller, also because Illusion is a relativley passive primary the controller is able to concentrate on self buffs and damage.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Correct.
The combo of Fulcrum Shift and Fissure can add up to a lot of damage. But that has nothing to do with Illusion. Fulcrum Shift will give a huge damage buff to Blind and Spectral Wounds, so clearly an Ill/Kin will be able to do some pretty good damage. |
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Most other controller sets have something that will neuter foes to allow a controller to go into melee. Ice's Ice Slick. Earth's Earthquake or Stalagmites+Stone Cages. Fire's Flashfire+Fire Cages. Plant's Seeds+Roots. Even Mind's Mass Hypnosis. Once an AoE control is out, then other sets have the same opportunity for Fulcrum Shift + Fissure . . . and some sets have other AoE damage options.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
Illusion ALLOWS the controller to deal the damage in melee. While playiing solo the pets are pulling the aggro from the controller, also because Illusion is a relativley passive primary the controller is able to concentrate on self buffs and damage.
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Not true!|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Most other controller sets have something that will neuter foes to allow a controller to go into melee. Ice's Ice Slick. Earth's Earthquake or Stalagmites+Stone Cages. Fire's Flashfire+Fire Cages. Plant's Seeds+Roots. Even Mind's Mass Hypnosis. Once an AoE control is out, then other sets have the same opportunity for Fulcrum Shift + Fissure . . . and some sets have other AoE damage options.
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Illusion with it's multiple pets (4 of which are unkillable) plus Spectral Terror self stacking fear will negate damage from all mobs and it's permanent. Other combos tend not to work on bosses unless they crit, only mitigate some damage (Earthquake) or are not permenant.
Ice could probably do similar through Arctic Air and Ice Slick.
Plant also via capped ranged defense and playing just outside of melee.
The problem with most control builds is the aggro is the controllers so you need to work harder to control instead of dealing damage.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
OK, a few things before we begin: here are some relevant notes as to my playstyle, what I find fun, and other stuff.
My playstyle is PvE only, never PvP. I play one character at a time, levelling him from 1 to 50, at which point I permanently shelve him and start a new character. (I am all about the 1-50 journey and enjoying it over and over). I have played since beta and have most of the Vet Badges including Sands of Mu, Nemmy Staff, Blackwand, 5+ Respecs, and Travel Power@ level 6. I have almost unlimited Influence and Infamy from all the years of playing - although I never buy Purples because I never play characters after hitting 50. I often buy LotG's, Numina's, Miracles, the Anti-KD IOs and a +Stealth travel IO - which slotting into SuperSpeed gives PvE invisibility basically.
So, here is the build I came up with. As you can see, I want after as much Recharge as possible. Question: If you already have pets out (Spectral Terrors, Phantom Armies, etc) and you fire it off again before they run out, can you double stack your pets?
Anyways, this has perma-Hasten and perma-Indomitable Will. I skipped Flash since the build was a little tight and the power sucks a bit. After I get Transference I could consider respeccing out of Stamina, which would enable me to pick up three other powers - possibly Flash, Assault, and Tactics. However I do worry that Transference alone may not be enough - although it will be up every seven seconds, so maybe I shouldn't worry about that. If I did get Flash, Assault, and Tactics, I would probably move some slots around, get Basilisk into Flash, drop some EndRedux into Assault and Tactics, and maybe some +ToHit in Tactics.
So, what do you guys think?
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
+10.5% DamageBuff(ALL)
+2.5% Defense(Energy/Neg)
+1.25% Defense(Ranged)
+2.25% Max End
+93.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
+2.5% Enhancement(Confused)
+9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
+2.75% Enhancement(Terrorized)
+57.2 HP (5.63%) HitPoints
+Knockback (Mag -7)
+Knockup (Mag -7)
+MezResist(Confused) 12.5%
+MezResist(Held) 12.5%
+MezResist(Immobilize) 17.5%
+MezResist(Sleep) 14.7%
+MezResist(Stun) 12.5%
+MezResist(Terrorized) 12.5%
+10.5% (0.18 End/sec) Recovery
+6% (0.25 HP/sec) Regeneration
+2.5% Resistance(Smashing)
+1.26% Resistance(Fire)
+1.26% Resistance(Cold)
+3% RunSpeed
+2% XPDebtProtection
Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blind -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(3), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(7), Hold-I(17)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(13), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(15), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(15), Acc-I(31)
Level 2: Deceive -- Mlais-Acc/Rchg(A), Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(5), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(5), Mlais-Conf/Rng(7), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31), Pplx-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31)
Level 4: Spectral Wounds -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(37), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 6: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Krma-ResKB(40)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(17)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(19), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(23), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(25)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21), P'Shift-End%(23)
Level 22: Speed Boost -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 24: Superior Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(43), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(43), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(43), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), RedFtn-Def(46)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- Abys-Acc/Rchg(A), Abys-EndRdx/Fear(27), Abys-Acc/EndRdx(27), Abys-Fear/Rng(29), Abys-Acc/Fear/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Grant Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 30: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Transference -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(36), Adrenal-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(36), Adrenal-EndMod/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- ImpSkn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpSkn-ResDam/Rchg(45), ImpSkn-EndRdx/Rchg(45), ImpSkn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ImpSkn-Status(46)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Acc/KB(48), KinCrsh-Rchg/KB(48), KinCrsh-Rechg/EndRdx(48), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(50), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(50)
Level 49: Mental Blast -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 2: Ninja Run
For Great Justice!