I would think that the absolute best case scenario is a precise amount of recharge that allows the rage crashes to overlap and exist simultaneously. That way you only have half as many crashes to deal with.
Where to now?
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This is something else I am curious about, and was going to make a thread about soon. I'm currently building up a Tanker SS/SD who has a really high recharge rate to where Rage would not only be Perma, but double stacked for a good duration. My questions was much the same, but also would the benefits from Rage stack? (accuracy and damage boost). Was also wondering what is considered to be a good Recovery for End, and a good amount of Regen.
For those curious this is what the build looks like.
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For tankers, getting Rage up as often as possible is the way to go even with the crashes; the damage boost provided outweight the damage loss caused by crashes.
Now, consider you never fight 100% of the time in a mission, especially on a tanker. Crash downtimes can be used to move around, gather mobs, heal up, and so on. You can also use vet attacks during the crash, and procs still work (I personally footstomp during rage crashes as the Arma proc procs often and KD is good for mitigation - not only for me but for my team).
To directly answer the question :
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Yes.
| I guess what I really want to know is for the best DPS do you want rage recharging and activated as fast as possible? |
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Let's look at this mathematically. Each iteration of Rage you're stacking is generating 100% +dam in exchange for losing out on 12.5% of your time to attack (15 seconds of damage dealing out of every 120 seconds).|
Originally Posted by Iceboxer
Theoretically, given infinite (or at least gross amounts of) recharge, rage would recharge fast enough were you’d reach a point where you’d be spending more time in the ‘rage crash zone’ than actually doing damage. Given the recharge we can realistically achieve, is it pretty much, the more rage the better? Or is it possible for us to reach a point of diminishing returns?
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Assuming an arbitrary attack string that deals any amount of damage (it doesn't really matter how much damage it deals because we're dealing with proportionate increases and decreases) with baseline 95% slotting, the formula for equivalence (in order to find the point wherein it stops being beneficial to stack more rage) is
Scrappers: (1.95 + x) * (1 - .125x) = y
Tankers: (1.95 + .8x) * (1 - .125x) = y
Brutes: (1.95 + .8x + .02z)(1 - .125x)= y
where x is the number of stacks of Rage and z is your Fury
The optimal point is the combination of values that achieves the highest value of y. For Scrappers, it's right around 3 (I'm using a graphing calculator because I'm too lazy to get the true optimal number). For Tankers, it's about 2.8. For Brutes (assuming 75% Fury), it's about 2.2.
Now, how applicable are these values?
Where the +dam is concerned, for Scrappers, 3 stacks of Rage would get you to a total of 395% +dam all the time (we're dealing with discrete periods of 100% +dam stacking), which is just shy of their damage cap. For Tankers, 2.8 stacks would bring them to 295% +dam for 20% of the times and 395% +dam for the other 80%, which means that 20% of the time you're just shy of the Tanker damage cap (300% +dam) and the other 80% you're well over it. For Brutes, 2.2 stacks and 75% Fury would bring them to 445% +dam for 80% of the time and 545% +dam for the other 20% which still leaves them a good deal shy of their damage cap (750% +dam). Essentially, the Scrapper and Brute optimal values are applicable, but any stacking beyond a double stack for a Tanker is largely pointless.
Where recharge is concerned (animation times ignored), Scrappers would need to achieve a 40 second recharge time to manage 3 stacks (120 / 3). To accomplish this, you would need 500% +rech (240 / 40 = 6; 6 - 1= 5), which is 100% +rech more than the actual cap is, so it's not even possible within the context of the game for Scrappers to reach the point of diminishing returns. For Tankers, 2 stacks at all times requires 60 seconds (120/2), which means that you would need 300% +rech (240 / 60 = 4; 4 - 1 = 3), which, while difficult, isn't impossible (remember, this isn't factoring in the 95% +rech you're going to get from enhancing). For Brutes, 2.2 stacks at all times requires (120 / 2.2) a ~55 second recharge time. 55 second recharge Rage would require ~340% +rech (240 / 55 = 4.363; 4.363 - 1 = 3.363; roundup to 3.4), which is bordering on impossible.
So, what is the meaning of all of this? It's impossible for 1 of the ATs (Scrappers) to reach the theoretical point of diminishing returns for Rage thanks to recharge restrictions. For Tankers and Brutes, it's attainable but really, really hard. Tankers get restricted usage from it thanks to their damage cap and Brutes get less use out of Rage than they would otherwise thanks to +dam dilution allowing the buff to get outpaced by the crash substantially faster. Even so, it's really friggin' hard to get to the point where Rage doesn't generate more damage than it's costing you.
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I agree with that, but the build should most probably include phys perf in my opinion. You're going to need all the recovery you can muster.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
For tankers, getting Rage up as often as possible is the way to go even with the crashes; the damage boost provided outweight the damage loss caused by crashes.
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On my SS/SD Brute, I can double stack rage for 30 seconds, but never do. Even with the full suite of Miracle, Numi and Perf Shifter Procs, and solid end rdx across the board - the crashes take too much of a toll on my gameplay.
But that's a Brute, who does't benefit as much from double stacked rage as a Tanker would. Who also doesn't have access to PP, and I play extremely aggressively with the goal of a constant (particularly AoE: Footstomp, Dark Oblit, SC)) offense
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Now, consider you never fight 100% of the time in a mission, especially on a tanker. Crash downtimes can be used to move around, gather mobs, heal up, and so on. You can also use vet attacks during the crash, and procs still work
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I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think as a tanker you have some wiggle room with that ; more often than not, in heroside PuGs, tankers control the pacing.
Get as much recharge as possible... double stack rage as much as possible... carry blue inspirations in your belt... destroy everything in your path... Who needs a team? 
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That's what I was doing |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Get as much recharge as possible... double stack rage as much as possible... carry blue inspirations in your belt... destroy everything in your path... Who needs a team?
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Just wanted to make sure I was doing all I could. Thanks for all the great feedback!
my SS/SD required about 4.02end/sec recovery and 112 total end to get the point where the rage/hasten crashes weren't effecting me anymore, and I still took CP.
I have 3 +recharge procs in the build so I pretty much stay damage capped as long as I'm attacking due to double and sometimes triple stacked Rage.
But guess what? Its sooooo worth it!
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That's true, without needing to maintain fury you can pick and choose your fights a bit better, not always but a bit better.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think as a tanker you have some wiggle room with that
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
; more often than not, in heroside PuGs, tankers control the pacing.
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Just wait until all the charge through the door guns blazing, no rest, no mercy redside ATs show up in GoRo.
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Wait... there's some other way to play???
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Just wait until all the charge through the door guns blazing, no rest, no mercy redside ATs show up in GoRo.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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To be honest, I haven't played Blueside for a while.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Wait... there's some other way to play???
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When I first started playing CoH, about a year ago, it seemed pretty common on your average Radio/Contact mish PUG for there to be tea time in between each group as the tanker did...well whatever it is some Tankers do in between spawns.
Switching to redside, several ATs seemed quite happy to leave everyone else in the dust and charge headfirst into spawns - and in general more PUGs seemed to have an "everybody in" style of spawn breaking.
But yeah, I'm in total agreement with you. There is no other way to play.
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Not that I've seen. >Grins<
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Originally Posted by Werner
Wait... there's some other way to play???
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Beowulf -
Too many Alts, not enough 50's. Story of my life...
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I've heard about this. Something about wait for the tank or follow the buffs or something like that. Then I hear something about staying together or pulling. It all could be a myth or just some story parents made up to scare their children into acting right. Who knows.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Wait... there's some other way to play???
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"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
I know scrappers dont have rage, but this forum seems to be the place for DPS discussions and thats what my question is really about. Ive been tinkering with my slotting on rage and Im trying to figure out how often I really want it up but I think Im going a bit overboard into theory craft. So I figured Id post here to check.
Theoretically, given infinite (or at least gross amounts of) recharge, rage would recharge fast enough were youd reach a point where youd be spending more time in the rage crash zone than actually doing damage. Given the recharge we can realistically achieve, is it pretty much, the more rage the better? Or is it possible for us to reach a point of diminishing returns?
I guess what I really want to know is for the best DPS do you want rage recharging and activated as fast as possible?