Villain Archtype Equivalents

This is an ignorant statement with regard to brutes.

Brutes have resistance caps of 90% just like tankers, and they also have the same HP cap as tankers. The modifiers are lower, so a brute gets less resistance/defense out of his powers than a tanker, but the cap is still the same for both. Brutes also start out with more hit points than scrappers.

Say what you like, but I've yet to see a stone tanker of any kind out pace, out aggro, out damage, and outlast my Dark Armor tank.

As Dechs Kaison pointed out, this is more due to the starting point of a Brute when he is solo, compared to a Tanker. On a team, a Brute can reach the same caps as a Tanker. However, it is harder to reach those caps (since he starts further from them) and Granite particularly cuts into the damage the Brute usually relies on to make up the difference.

The Granite Brute may be the best Brute suited for tanking, but it is not the best Brute suited for bruting. And it may not even be the best tank, overall. Which is what I think Dechs was trying to say.

The Threat level of a Mastermind Henchman appears to be the same as Scrappers, and less than Tankers and Brutes. Most henchmen also lack the ability to Taunt, or Gauntlet or "pokevoke". However, we don't really know how pets interact with the AI, they may be given a higher rating for aggro generation, or other factors may be involved. Being in melee seems to multiply aggro generation considerably, and the AI tendency to take time between attacks may also "spike" threat, which is why I tend to send my Tier 3 henchmen into melee. (And why the Bruiser seems so good at holding aggro)

An MM henchman is usually pretty good about keeping aggro off of non-Brute redside teammates for a short time, but it's sporatic. It helps to either go in first, or right after the Brute, so your team is pulling aggro off you, not the other way around. Beyond that, the Tankermind strategy is needed for "true" tanking.

Honestly, on a small team the MM is usually the best suited to hold aggro, while on a larger team the Brute is the better.

Ahh My apologies.. you are correct.
They can achieve the 90% resistance mark, they just have an incredibly hard time trying to do it on their own.. My apologies for mis-speaking (it's been forever since I've played with brutes and mids).


Ok.. So dark can out damage out agro and outlast stone thanks to the best heal in the game the great aura's etc.. Still not sure how that squarely puts Stone in the BOTTOM tier of all tankers..
I certainly didn't say it's absolutely 100% the very best.. Just certainly not the worst.

In general, I find stone tanks to be at the bottom tier, in my opinion, because they cannot react and move quickly. This is because two powers, one of which is critical to survival, severely limit maneuverability. Teleport works to an extent, but does have a noticeable cast time and limitations around corners. Taunting works well too, but has a five target cap.

Allow me to present a situation: I'm leading a team of eight and we're fighting something that's not easy for the team to take out. A patrol/ambush/extra mob gets aggro'd at the other side of the team. I can jump from the mob I'm at to the middle of the new one and immediately start getting everything's aggro, and I can do it before teleport would finish animating.

When analyzing tankers, I prioritize the ability to generate and hold aggression, because that is the purpose of a tanker. Survival is not a requisite to being a good tank, holding aggro is. Survival does help, but if you can't get to the opponent and can't keep its attention, it's not a tank.

Totally agree with you on pretty well all counts. The henchmen certainly don't have the "punchvoke" that tankers are built with. Hence why a MM won't be as good as a tank..

Brutes definitely suffer from "blaster" syndrome in terms of grabbing aggro. We all know damage generated is a factor towards stealing agro, hence why a scrapper is not a competent tank. Sure they can survive well, deal a ton of damage, etc etc. But when something puts up bigger orange numbers some agro gets drawn away (generally). Such is the problem with no punchvoke, brutes can put up those big numbers that tend to draw some agro.

Because of this Brutes have one aspect of tanking better than the MM, their damage numbers do nice to recreate the punchvoke a tank has..

Which echo's the fact that nothing red side is 100% equivalent with blue side.. At best it's hybrids of each.

I agree with your assessment on small teams the MM is better and on large teams the brute is better.. But on the large (half decent put together teams with some buffs) the brute can get to the cap's of resistances/boost defenses, receive outside healing.

Heck I love playing an MM and just focusing my healing on the brute and letting my minions attack whatever I tell them. So I fully agree..

Well if you add it being your opinion I agree.. You're certainly entitled to the opinion.
I can't argue you on the corners with port.

But rooted is a very quick recharge so it can be turned off and on pretty quick. The right io's pick up run speed a lot.

But certainly I'm just posting this to try to influence your opinion not knock it or anything.. Just providing a counter opinion (I hope that's coming across in my wording as I don't intend to sound disrespectful or anything!).

Here's how I like to play my stoner.
Put on my shoes TP in spam aoe's taunts focus single target on the biggest threat.
When everything is justa bout dead (maybe a smidge of health on the boss or a minion or two left) if everyone's stamina and life is good (which it tends to be late game for stamina , and if you held aggro properly for health) tp to the next group and grab the whole groups aggro.

I've adapted this playstyle to my stoner mostly because after playing many tanks (one of favorite at's) I can't stand when someone starts blasting the group before I'm able to grab all the aggro, so porting in before they even start looking at that group has always served me well.

That being said.. AS a tanker fan.. I'd love to see what you've done with your dark/!
I'm always game for trying a tanker primary I have yet to really play around with! Perhaps PM me some tips I should look for when I try to make this one!

Brutes have "punchvoke." Tankers have provoke. Brute attacks have a taunt that affects whatever the brute hits. Tank attacks taunt 4 other things in an area around what the tank hits.

Well, in my defense, my first post on the matter included the phrase "in my mind." I never claimed anything I said was more than an opinion.

I, for one, would be very hesitant to turn off my mez protection as a tank just to get around, but that's just me.

Guess what? You can! Just follow the "Dark Armor Sucks" link in my signature.

Another point where, amusingly enough, Stealth came in handy for me. In fact, I had a keybind that toggled off Rooted, and on Stealth. Because that was a VERY common trick with me.

Of course, Stealth also slows you, for which reason I had Swift three slotted with Run Enhancement.

Also, I believe JusticeIsServed was pointing out that big numbers draw AoE aggro. (The mechanism isn't exactly clear, but attacking a Boss WILL get you aggro from the minions in his group)

Youtube = blocked at work.... But I've emailed myself the link os I don't forget..
I agree with your turning off the mez protection issue.. However..

If I'm not in granite form you can get your build moving pretty fast even with the big feet. So you don't really need to turn them off..

In granite form it's got built in mez protection too.. I mean Mag 21.6 for stun/hold/immob/sleep is pretty potent.. Rooted is only mag 13 which is the same for DA/FA/etc. So if mag 13 is good enough for everyone else.. Mag 21 is plenty high enough to decide to turn off the rooted to get around as a granite..

And I do see you wrote "in my mind" but I have a great tendancy to not always read the very end of a sentance when I read quickly and feel I grabbed the point.. haha My apologies there!

*edit* but yeah.. if you're making a granite tanker you've probably made it because you saw a granite tanker sitting in a group of 10+ guys getting beat on.. and the team wiped or something and he's still at full health.. that's what drew me to try it.
The real trick is once you fall into it, figuring out how to make it effective..
For me much my my build revolved around +runspeed and +rech. Which getting runspeed up to somewhere between standard run and sprint (before the extra slight boost of swift) with rooted on is pretty good. And your granite will move just as quickly when you take rooted off.. So you can be very quick moving..

It's not something that you can just fall into though.. The AVERAGE stone tanker definitely benefits from a Kin.. a better stone tanker will look to try to not NEED a kin tagging along everytime you log in. Building to this spec (in my opinion as well) puts it above the bottom tier.