Something New for Character Origin
While I like the idea in principle I see some overlap which could be annoying.
I think this is nicely covered in our DO overlap and would like to see the same applied tot his concept. So a Tech Origin super can use to use either the Technology, Natural, or Science bonus while a Natural super would be able to pick Natural, Technology or Magic and so on and so forth.
While I like the idea in principle I see some overlap which could be annoying.
I think this is nicely covered in our DO overlap and would like to see the same applied tot his concept. So a Tech Origin super can use to use either the Technology, Natural, or Science bonus while a Natural super would be able to pick Natural, Technology or Magic and so on and so forth. |
I had also considered that the science origin would get a choice of using either Mutation, Natural or Tech as their special origin progression. Magic would be the only one in-accessible to them.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Yeah, I thought about overlap as well. The important thing would be that a character would have to choose one path and could only change with a respec.
I had also considered that the science origin would get a choice of using either Mutation, Natural or Tech as their special origin progression. Magic would the only one in-accessible to them. |
This again...
I'm against any ideas to make Origins more meaningful for two simple reasons: you're shafting people who already picked an origin when it wasn't meaningful and now you're attaching a benefit to it, and your vision of origins is often completely contradictory to mine.
You propose to give Natrual characters affinity with "hand-held mundane gear." OK, what use would Superman guns? Wait, let me try that again... What use would Peacebringers have for blades? Natural covers a LOT of ground, and natural HUMANS are just one small part of it. Things like the Hydra are also natural, because that's what these creatures are. What use would the Hydra have for gadgets? They don't even have fingers... Or pockets, or skin, or a skeletal structure.
And then you propose to give magic users pets... And I'm trying not to say mean things to you over that. Because if
Every [magical?] character that I recall reading about had sentient devices or pets/companions assisting them |
You're making the classic mistake of taking only one of a vast array of concept categories per origin and running with it, and as always happens with these suggestions, they're NEVER the choices I made, both because I made different choices for different characters and also because I'm apparently very weird.
You might be wondering how I could criticise a suggestion without offering counterpoints and improvements to it, but that's kind of the point - I don't think there ARE reasonable improvements. This comes up a lot. About once a month if my memory serves. And never at all has this produced a set Origin "meanings" that everyone's been able to agree on. Even when they fit MY vision of what origins should mean, they don't fit other people's. I don't feel there's any good way to do this, hence I'm not a fan of the idea.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This again...
I'm against any ideas to make Origins more meaningful for two simple reasons: you're shafting people who already picked an origin when it wasn't meaningful and now you're attaching a benefit to it, and your vision of origins is often completely contradictory to mine. |
Every character that I recall reading about had sentient devices or pets/companions assisting them. |
I have a Natural spines/inv scrapper. What use does he have for a blade or gun, when he has them popping out of his skin like the rest of his people do?
Why should Mutation get some sort of a buff? If your Mutation suggestion got implemented, what would happen is a month of PLing as farmers, PVPers, and others who want to min-max got new characters (rolled with Mutation origin) up, and a lot of angry people who have 6 year old favourite characters feeling screwed over.
Origin has meant nothing for six years. Leave it be.
Origin means nothing, lets rip em out or make them mean something.
The only thing Origin does now is make it so you can't use some of the drops you get.
--edit(s)--
Also, that kind of logic means nothing should ever be built on or added to or spiced up.
Blasters couldn't use psychic attacks before issue 12 everyone who rolled blaster before then was robbed!
People who didn't choose natural before Issue 7 were denied there rightful throwing knives.
The game played fine without IOs, Dual Builds, and Customization we should have left that alone as well!
MMOs either grow and evolve or they die.
Just ask the elephant who is about to redo its core rules and have a major expansion, it's not doing it because it has dwindling numbers or is flat lining it's doing it to stay competitive and keep people coming back for more.
Origin means nothing, lets rip em out or make them mean something.
The only thing Origin does now is make it so you can't use some of the drops you get. --edit-- Also, that kind of logic means nothing should ever be built on or added to or spiced up. Blasters couldn't use psychic attacks before issue 12 everyone who rolled blaster before then was robbed! People who didn't choose natural before Issue 7 were denied there rightful throwing knives. The game played fine without IOs, Dual Builds, and Customization we should have left that alone as well! MMOs either grow and evolve or they die. Just ask the elephant who is about to redo its core rules and have a major expansion, it's not doing it because it has dwindling numbers or is flat lining it's doing it to stay competitive and keep people coming back for more. |
As far as Im concerned, Origin should just be left as it is. Changing it would break a LOT of stuff that really doesnt need breaking, thanks all the same.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Re: Responses
Samuel and Memphis,
I understand your points and really appreciate the feedback. Also I apologize for my comments regarding magic characters, this should have been worded differently.
The whole point of the thread is to discuss ideas like these, but without being offended, so if I accidentily offended anyone, it was not my intent.
One thing that I may have failed to indicate is that the system would be free and not change any of your existing powers and enhancement slots, unless you devoted slots to the sub-set powers. Much the same as Kheldians can go all-human and skip the forms, the origins could be completely optional.
Also, I would expect that existing characters would gain all the benefit of the origins. It wouldn't be something only for brand new characters.
Another thing that Lisar brought up is that every origin could be allowed to choose from up to 3 of the 5 choices, which increases your flexibility considerably. So if you Natural character didnt want to take "guns" or "blades", they could choose a more passive option like "Tech" and gain the benefit of being able to memorize temp powers.
Finally, my suggestions are just one idea. I am sure there are other more generic choices that would be appealing. The fact that the game is fine as is, to me, doesnt mean we should not have more "cool stuff" added. In fact, every MMO needs to continually add to it's game or risk players taking their $15 somewhere else.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I vote for an alien origin!
Also, that kind of logic means nothing should ever be built on or added to or spiced up. Blasters couldn't use psychic attacks before issue 12 everyone who rolled blaster before then was robbed! People who didn't choose natural before Issue 7 were denied there rightful throwing knives. The game played fine without IOs, Dual Builds, and Customization we should have left that alone as well! MMOs either grow and evolve or they die. |
There's good growth and evolution, and bad growth and evolution. Your examples? C'mon, really? Someone picking a new powerset (psi blasters, rad blasters, etc.) does not affect every blaster, or everyone who had the same origin. Sure, some people will want to reroll a character because it fits better - but it doesn't change every single blaster out there because of a throwaway choice they made 6 years ago.
IOs do not change every single character out there, or make assumptions about every single character out there as a change to having origins "do something" would. They don't, just by virtue of existing, make a preexisting AR blaster suddenly more powerful *by default* than a Fire blaster, or change the options a Fire blaster has.
Having Origin mean something now would be like having which starting zone/contact you picked suddenly change your options. Would you be annoyed if you were locked out of something that actually affects your character because you picked Atlas instead of Galaxy to start a character six years ago? Or because you chose to start with Kalinda instead of Burke? (Yes, in Praetoria, from what we know, there are going to be some other options, but that information by contrast will be given *from the beginning.*)
Strawman.
There's good growth and evolution, and bad growth and evolution. Your examples? C'mon, really? Someone picking a new powerset (psi blasters, rad blasters, etc.) does not affect every blaster, or everyone who had the same origin. Sure, some people will want to reroll a character because it fits better - but it doesn't change every single blaster out there because of a throwaway choice they made 6 years ago. IOs do not change every single character out there, or make assumptions about every single character out there as a change to having origins "do something" would. They don't, just by virtue of existing, make a preexisting AR blaster suddenly more powerful *by default* than a Fire blaster, or change the options a Fire blaster has. Having Origin mean something now would be like having which starting zone/contact you picked suddenly change your options. Would you be annoyed if you were locked out of something that actually affects your character because you picked Atlas instead of Galaxy to start a character six years ago? Or because you chose to start with Kalinda instead of Burke? (Yes, in Praetoria, from what we know, there are going to be some other options, but that information by contrast will be given *from the beginning.*) |
Re: Responses
Samuel and Memphis, I understand your points and really appreciate the feedback. Also I apologize for my comments regarding magic characters, this should have been worded differently. The whole point of the thread is to discuss ideas like these, but without being offended, so if I accidentily offended anyone, it was not my intent. One thing that I may have failed to indicate is that the system would be free and not change any of your existing powers and enhancement slots, unless you devoted slots to the sub-set powers. Much the same as Kheldians can go all-human and skip the forms, the origins could be completely optional. Also, I would expect that existing characters would gain all the benefit of the origins. It wouldn't be something only for brand new characters. Another thing that Lisar brought up is that every origin could be allowed to choose from up to 3 of the 5 choices, which increases your flexibility considerably. So if you Natural character didnt want to take "guns" or "blades", they could choose a more passive option like "Tech" and gain the benefit of being able to memorize temp powers. Finally, my suggestions are just one idea. I am sure there are other more generic choices that would be appealing. The fact that the game is fine as is, to me, doesnt mean we should not have more "cool stuff" added. In fact, every MMO needs to continually add to it's game or risk players taking their $15 somewhere else. |
I get that existing characters would get it. That's not the problem - that in and of itself (adding something) is as big an "issue" as APPs/PPPs having five instead of four choices. The difference between the two is that APPs and PPPs you can respec out of. You know they're power pools, you know you can change them (and with PPPs, we were given flexibility finally *to* alter them.) With Origin? You're suddenly adding in to a choice you can't change, one that was essentially set up as an "RP, throwaway if you don't care" choice - and I know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but a choice that could have been made over six years ago.
If you want to switch some of them to a "themed" power pool - say "Artifacts" for "magic doodads," it's one thing. Just don't tie them to origins.
Having Origin mean something now would be like having which starting zone/contact you picked suddenly change your options. Would you be annoyed if you were locked out of something that actually affects your character because you picked Atlas instead of Galaxy to start a character six years ago? Or because you chose to start with Kalinda instead of Burke? (Yes, in Praetoria, from what we know, there are going to be some other options, but that information by contrast will be given *from the beginning.*) |
I think that I get what your saying now.
There was a suggestion thread recently where I suggested being able to change your origin at the tailor as part of the upcoming mutant pack. We can already change our size and body-type, along with just about everything else.
What if we could alter our origin ? Would that solve the problem ?
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Hello Memphis,
I think that I get what your saying now. There was a suggestion thread recently where I suggested being able to change your origin at the tailor as part of the upcoming mutant pack. We can already change our size and body-type, along with just about everything else. What if we could alter our origin ? Would that solve the problem ? . |
Why should my Magic user, a generally intelligent individual, not be able to memorize how to poison a knife and throw it? It's not like building a car from scratch - but from not being Natural, that's locked out.
Plus the choices are making a lot of assumptions, as pointed out before.
No origin-restricted anything, thanks.
Hello Memphis,
I think that I get what your saying now. There was a suggestion thread recently where I suggested being able to change your origin at the tailor as part of the upcoming mutant pack. We can already change our size and body-type, along with just about everything else. What if we could alter our origin ? Would that solve the problem ? |
Yes in that those who want to min/max could pick the origin that fits their numeric desires best. (Looking at your mutant example there.) No in that those who want a complete character - not just "a powerset," or "great slotting," but that have a backstory that the origin fits perfectly with are *still* locked out of choices, or are having the game/devs make assumptions that just aren't going to be true.
Plus, and I have very little to back this up, I'm not honestly sure that Origin *can* be changed. It's one of four things the devs say define a character - AT, Primary, Secondary, and Origin. I'm thinking that Origin is buried so deeply in the foundation of a character's "record," thanks to how things were in Alpha (where it really did mean something) that it's non-changeability is a leftover from there, that it may break more than we think to have it changeable. If that's *not* the case, I wouldn't mind being able to change an origin.
I don't mind "themed" powers - My magic characters have no problem using a Tech jetpack to get around. It's convenient. My Science characters will whip out a Blackwand, and use the wings their people have naturally to fly. My Natural characters have no issues using Tech costume bits to "assist" them (say, Piston or Rocket boots.)
But none of those restrict them in any way. None of them lock the characters out of any other choices. That *restriction* is my biggest issue whenever something like this gets brought up.
Theme the powers. Go nuts. Just don't lock them in and add restrictions based on origin.
But it is weaker...so you wouldn't oppose this idea if off origin choices reduced power?
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Again, no origin locking, thanks. (FWIW, I don't particularly agree with the staff or blackwand having reduced power - as opposed to, say, the Ghost slaying axe, which makes sense to have more damage vs an enemy type - but it's so minor in the overall scheme of things it's ignorable.)
I had also considered that the science origin would get a choice of using either Mutation, Natural or Tech as their special origin progression. Magic would be the only one in-accessible to them. |
Going forward with CoX, one of my thoughts was to bring the character origins more into the lime-light in some way. The inherent attacks are an interesting idea, and I even use them with new characters (for a brief time). But I would like to see Origins explored more.
Here are some thoughts on how to bring the Origin of a character into their overall powersets. Feel free to suggest other ideas that could help the Devs with future additions to the game.
TECHNOLOGY: Well my first thought was that Techs are inventors and the temporary powers would be a great way to distingush them from other origins, unfortunately everyone can create these currently. So....perhaps allowing Tech origin characters to memorize these recipes would work.
NATURAL: I envision these characters as being able to use all manner of hand-held mundane gear. Perhaps several mini-powersets could be created (ala Kheldian forms), which would give each character a small power sub-set to utilize. You would only be able to choose one of these sub-sets and the powers would be lower-tier strength.
Examples:
BLADES : (fully customizable) would allow the use of a weapon in one hand and powers would be sufficient to create a meaningful attack chain using the item.
GUNS : (customizable, 1-handed) again to allow a 3-4 power ranged attack chain.
GADGETS : Assorted powers which could offer single target powers like immobilize, sleep etc..
Each mini-powerset would contain NO AOE powers and all powers would be at Tier 1,2 or 3 maximum strength so they do not step on the toes of other Full Powersets.
MAGIC: Every character that I recall reading about had sentient devices or pets/companions assisting them, and many folks love pets as an in-game feature.
How about giving an array of usable pets that can either function as
combat, buff or defbuff/control for the Hero/Villain.
A combat pet would not be stronger than a single fire imp, while buff/debuff pets would have basic defense and one special power, but would otherwise not attack.
The pets could be themed and customizable as follows; You would first choose your pet skin; Wolf, Drake, Imp, Snake, Cat etc...
Then you would choose your pets focus; Combat, Defensive
Then you give your pet his ONE power; Attack for combat pets, Buff, Debuff or Control for a defensive pet.
MUTATION: One Idea that I had was to enable a mutant to specialize ONE power every 10 levels starting at 20th. What they could do is choose an enhancement type for the power and have it applied at SO strength. It would not have a slot like other enhancements, so would not allow more than 6 IOs in the power, but would generically increase the ACC, DMG, Recharge, Endurance etc... of the power. This boost "could" be seperate from ED, but if that were too powerful, would simply allow 4 powers to be enhanced outside of the normal slotting process. This idea is meant to simulate that Mutant powers evolve over time.
SCIENCE: This origin is a difficult one. Hopefully others will have some ideas that are better than mine. What I did think was to have Science be a "potpouri" and have a dozen or more single powers added to a special science power pool. The themes would be a broad span of lower tier powers such that you could pick ONE power to supplement the character.
Then as a secondary benefit, Science characters could choose a single "generic" improvement that would be a global effect at approximately DO strength (Maybe lower). So if they wanted to be more accurate they choose ACC, more DMG, recharge etc...
I look forward to any revisions, additions or alternate concepts reagrding character origin.
Please be gentle on the flaming. These are just ideas that are open to discussion.
Bio
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF