My main is an Inv/WM tank with two builds. The first is a build is somewhat similar to yours, focusing on recharge and Psi resistance/defense. The second is soft capped to all S/L/F/C/E/N with 1 foe in range of invincibility.
The second build (soft capped) is far, FAR more effective than the first against everything but Wisps in the shadow shard and the 2 all psi damage missions with Malaise and the evil numina (who's name escapes me). Especially so on things like the STF.
Before you spend the time and effort putting this build together I would strongly suggest you take a look at Call Me Awesome's guide to soft capping an invuln tanker. I don't have the lin at the moment but I will try and find it for you if you can't track it down.
One of the most depressing times playing this game was seeing my second (soft capped) build outperform my primary build (which has 4 purple sets to boot) by a very large margin. as a point of reference my psi build has around 5 bil worth of enhancements in it (by today's standards) and the soft capped build cost me under 300 million...
the psi hole just isnt that big of a deal, even against rikti and carnies, since no other damage type is goingg to get through (generally speaking)
Here's CMA's guide:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=126983
My Inv/EM tanker has nothing but common IOs. No sets or bonuses of any kind. He's tanked every single TF and Trial in the game. You don't have to spend out the @$$ to be "tough".
�Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.� ― John Wayne
�Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!� - George Carlin
Ribic, thanks for the thoughts and the link to that guide. I'll spec out a softcapped build and see what it looks like in terms of pros and cons. I'm still concerned about things like taking on +3 carnie bosses, rikti psychic users, and Wisps. I suppose it's good that there are a lot of ways to build a tank these days, and that you can have two builds ready when you need them.
Ultraaman, I'm sure your tank is great, but mine is sometimes great and sometimes he sucks, and when he sucks it makes me sad. With the right buffing support almost any tank can be awesome, but sometimes when you're doing a TF and taking the first 8 people who show up, that support isn't there. When I see content like Reichsman, LRSF, and STF, I look ahead to future endgame challenges and imagine that I'll need to be able to bring more tank to the table than common IOs and the Fighting pool can provide.
When you get a build put together, feel free to post it and I and others who are familiar with the set can give it a once-over to try and help you fine tune it. As for the carnies, yes, +3 bosses hurt, but my main problem with them has always been the ring mistresses' god-awful Mask of Vitiation... which has to pass a to-hit check, and is (if I remember correctly) neg nrg. Being soft capped I rarely get hit by it, making the entire encounter that much easier.
OK, here's a build that uses that guide; energies/elements defense is not quite 45% with only one adjacent enemy, but caps at 3-4 adjacent. I kind of wish I could have more slots in my single target attacks, especially Total Focus, but considering that this is a build for tanking on big teams, the team should be able to handle the murdering (or, you know, subduing).
Also, yes, according to City of Data, Mask of Vitiation is ranged, negative, which makes me feel a little better about Ringmistresses.
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Well, I'm a little bored today so I threw (and I mean THREW) a build together, trying to keep as close to your build (power selection wise) as possible, while also keeping the costs WAY down (the only really expensive IOs in the set are the 2 cytos, but I was under the impression you already had them).
This build is meant as nothing other than a starting point for you. I'm sure there are a TON of improvements that could be made, but it does show you how easy it is to get to the softcap to S/L with 1 in range of invincibility and very very close for E/N (a second enemy in invincibility range will get you there). F/C is off, but not at all a big deal, as those damage types are so rare, and a good number will be covered by the S/L def anyway.
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Here's a slightly reworked version of the build you posted. I took two slots from Unyielding, and added them to invincibility (for the kismet +6% to-hit) and Stamina (for the chance for +end proc). these will help you far more then 3% psi and toxic resists.
I removed the -kb from CJ and SJ, as the Fire/Cold def just isn't that important, and those are rather pricey and added them to barrage and Bone smasher to get you more acc/end/rech slotting.
I took the sixth slot from ET and moved it to TF so they're now both 5 slotted with Crushing Impact, skipping the Acc/dmg.
also, make sure when building this to take the exemping rules into account for your sets, make sure to get the res slow proc from winter's gift as low as possible, as you will lose it's effect if you are more than 3 levels below the enhancement level, whether you have the power available or not. The same goes for the Blessing of the Zephyr and Luck of the Gambler IOs
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Good call regarding those -kb IOs being pricy; I hadn't realized they were as expensive as they were, and since I don't need them, those're slots better used elsewhere. Also, I think you're right that a full Aegis in Unyielding is overkill; I mostly included it since that's one set I actually do have everything from. So, splitting the difference a little more, and choosing not to really care about the Kismet or Performance Shifter procs, this build finds 5th slots for Bone Smasher and Total Focus - Focused Smite acc/dam/recharge seemed like the best toss-in there - and drops the other two into Unstoppable to 3-slot Aegis for that cold/fire defense (which, as you say, I may be overvaluing):
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On reflection, you're right about pulling the 6th slot from Energy Transfer - the 6th Crushing Impact is not doing very much for this build. Torn between putting the 5th slot in Barrage vs. returning the 5th Aegis in Unyielding for aoe and fire/cold def, or making room for Kismet global +tohit in Invincibility. You seem to really like Performance Shifter proc, but a 20% chance for +10 endurance every 10s works out to around 0.2 end/sec, which while meaningful I don't value as highly.
Kismet unique might be the best choice there, though I'll have to look at the price on that one. One advantage to going for the fourth slot in Invincibility is it'll help the slotting a bit until I can afford the Cytoskeletons. Looked at what I had hami-O wise from my old build - 5 dam/mez, 3 dam/range, a dam/acc, and a resist/end; the Ribosome there apparently is the only one currently valued highly, but if I get the 200-300M that it's going for now it should finance the bulk of this build, with future savings going towards the Cytoskeletons and merits going for the LotG globals. I'm looking forward to putting it together.
I'd strongly recommend a couple of other changes:
By far the best place to put the Kismet unique is in Tough Hide. It's a "proc 120" like the regen/recovery uniques so putting it in a passive will effectively "perma" it.
Multi Strike is an okay set for positional defense, but its typed defense bonuses are pretty pathetic. A far better choice for Whirling Hands would be Eradication, which gives a 3.13% E/NE bonus for just three slots. I'd slot WH with 3 or 4 Eradication and 2 Scirocco's Dervish (Dam/End and Acc/Dam/End) for the regen bonus.
This is more of a personal preference, but you might want to consider using Gift of the Ancients for Weave and/or Tough Hide until you can afford LotG. GotA has very useful +recovery and +end bonuses for 4 slots.
I'd also take Build-Up instead of either ResEn or Unstoppable, but again that's more personal preference.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
In looking over your last build it looks solid; there are a few very pricey items there however... notably the Luck of the Gambler recharge IO's. Last time I bought one about a month ago they were in the $150-200 million range. If you've the inf that's fine; just realize how much you'll be paying for them.
A minor detail here but I'd get Hurdle instead of Swift... especially on a jumper. You'll really notice the effect of Hurdle in your jump speed and distance.
Multi Strike is cheap and gives you good acc/dam/endred but it's bonuses are lacking... I'll second the suggestion to frankenslot three Eradication in there... I might finish out with Scirocco's Dervish for some regen. Also the suggestion of adding the Kismet unique into Tough Hide is a good one.
For Weave consider 4 slotting Gift of the Ancients; it'll give you bonus endurance and a recovery bonus. Based on my Stone/EM tanker that's something you can probably use. A second set could go into Tough Hide if you need more endurance.
Personally I don't take Resist Elements; it's only a minor bonus to a rare damage type and frankly I haven't missed it. Unstoppable is a power I found useful... before I respec'd into a soft capped build. Since issue 13 I haven't once had occasion to need it, even in a couple of Master STF runs. Because of that I dropped it on my issue 15 respec. Dropping those two powers would open up room for a ranged attack or two in your APP... and give you a place to toss a Thunderstrike set.
In any case it looks like you're working on a pretty solid foundation there; there are a few things I'd do differently but then you're the one playing the character so you should build it for your playstyle.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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The kismet unique is fairly inexpensive, around 20 mil if I remember correctly, less if you're patient. another option for Invincibility is the enzyme Hami-O, because of the way defense and to hit buffs work 3 of them will actually give you the same end and to hit values, but higher defensive values, and they're usually just a tad cheaper.|
Originally Posted by 9783_Dollar_Man
On reflection, you're right about pulling the 6th slot from Energy Transfer - the 6th Crushing Impact is not doing very much for this build. Torn between putting the 5th slot in Barrage vs. returning the 5th Aegis in Unyielding for aoe and fire/cold def, or making room for Kismet global +tohit in Invincibility. You seem to really like Performance Shifter proc, but a 20% chance for +10 endurance every 10s works out to around 0.2 end/sec, which while meaningful I don't value as highly.
Kismet unique might be the best choice there, though I'll have to look at the price on that one. One advantage to going for the fourth slot in Invincibility is it'll help the slotting a bit until I can afford the Cytoskeletons. Looked at what I had hami-O wise from my old build - 5 dam/mez, 3 dam/range, a dam/acc, and a resist/end; the Ribosome there apparently is the only one currently valued highly, but if I get the 200-300M that it's going for now it should finance the bulk of this build, with future savings going towards the Cytoskeletons and merits going for the LotG globals. I'm looking forward to putting it together. |
I'm continually trying to find room for the perf shifter proc because I really believe you're going to have endurance issues with only a 1.48 end/s gain with all toggles running. I always shoot for at least 2 end/s, except for specialized builds (my arch/mm blaster with Drain Psyche, or my elec/elec tank with power sink)
What about this build? I swapped out the sets on Whirling hands to get you more E/N def, and end and rec, traded unstoppable (you won't need it on a soft capped invuln) for conserve power, which you mentioned in your OP that you would like to take, and removed one slot from it to add the kismet to CJ so its pretty much always available to you. It will be perma as long as CJ is toggles on, which should be anytime you're not using SJ. Traded the lvl 40 A/D/R in your attacks for lvl 50 CI A/D/E, its a bit slower recharge, but the end reduction will make a huge difference for you. If the recharge is that important to you then use lvl 50 A/D/R CIs, still better numbers than the lvl 40s from Focused Smite. I was putting focused smites in there using the A/R/E to fill the holes left by smashing haymaker, but again, its all to taste. I'm not loving the end slotting on Whirling hands, but everything else you're getting from those sets is so nice I think it's worth it (personal preference).
Lastly I dropped swift for hurdle again, I can't stress enough how much of a difference this will make for CJs movement as well as SJ, especially if you go for lower level BotZ IOs for exemping. But again, just personal preference.
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As I noted in my post above, if you put the Kismet +Acc in Tough Hide, it is literally always available to you, not just when CJ is running. IMO, that's clearly the best place to slot it in an Invul build.
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Originally Posted by Ribic
What about this build? I swapped out the sets on Whirling hands to get you more E/N def, and end and rec, traded unstoppable (you won't need it on a soft capped invuln) for conserve power, which you mentioned in your OP that you would like to take, and removed one slot from it to add the kismet to CJ so its pretty much always available to you. It will be perma as long as CJ is toggles on, which should be anytime you're not using SJ.
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My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Thanks for all the additional comments and suggestions, and the reasonable case for Performance Shifter, Enzymes, trying to eke out more +recovery, etc.
As mentioned, my plan is to use merits for the LotG global recharge IOs (unless anyone can suggest a better use for merits in terms of value exchanged for) and buy the rest.
I can understand the people who'd like to have Build Up, but honestly, high damage is not one of my goals for this character; I'll settle for adequate damage for soloing missions and keeping enemies' attentions on teams.
As for Hurdle vs. Swift, I find that between spawns I just hit SJ and hop to the next group, and within spawns I prefer to stay on the ground and thus appreciate Swift, but there's a case to be made for hurdle+CJ for increased combat mobility. I'll give it some thought.
I've started working on picking up IOs at the market with an eye towards sets that will fit both before and after I actually burn a respec on this build. Should be fun.
Happy we could help you 9783, enjoy the wonders of softcapped invuln... its a beautiful thing
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In a respec build, yeah, sure, in a level up build i like to put it in CJ, since you dont get TH until 26, which is why i always slap it in there. And the difference between the two is nominal at best. if I have a toon with CJ, it is ALWAYS on unless im using SJ or NR (non combat travel).
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
As I noted in my post above, if you put the Kismet +Acc in Tough Hide, it is literally always available to you, not just when CJ is running. IMO, that's clearly the best place to slot it in an Invul build.
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I'd agree with this assessment, my own experience coincides here. If I'm playing a character with CJ then the only time CJ won't be toggled on is while I'm not in combat... and if I'm not in combat then I don't need the 6% tohit bonus. It also frees up a slot doing it that way if that's a factor.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
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I believe it's also one of the "120 second" enhancements... so it's benefit would continue for two minutes after you turn off CJ anyway. Frankly given the end cost, or lack thereof, of CJ I see no reason not to run it any time you aren't running SJ or Ninja Run. For that matter on all my jumpers I have a macro to swap between SJ & CJ; one or the other is ALWAYS running immediately after I log in.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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That's fine if you have CJ and truly do run it all the time, but that's not something you can count on everyone doing. I don't even HAVE CJ on any of my tanks. |
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'd agree with this assessment, my own experience coincides here. If I'm playing a character with CJ then the only time CJ won't be toggled on is while I'm not in combat... and if I'm not in combat then I don't need the 6% tohit bonus. It also frees up a slot doing it that way if that's a factor.
I believe it's also one of the "120 second" enhancements... so it's benefit would continue for two minutes after you turn off CJ anyway. Frankly given the end cost, or lack thereof, of CJ I see no reason not to run it any time you aren't running SJ or Ninja Run. For that matter on all my jumpers I have a macro to swap between SJ & CJ; one or the other is ALWAYS running immediately after I log in. |
The "you get TH too late" argument seems a little dubious, too, since most players don't begin buying set IOs until the late 20s or 30s at the earliest.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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It's fine if you see it as dubious, but on any toon that will get -KB, the kismet + to-hit, a stealth proc or the steadfast +def I always get it into their build as soon as possible. They're generally the first IOs I slot as they will provide immediate results all by themselves.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
That's fine if you have CJ and truly do run it all the time, but that's not something you can count on everyone doing. I don't even HAVE CJ on any of my tanks.
The "you get TH too late" argument seems a little dubious, too, since most players don't begin buying set IOs until the late 20s or 30s at the earliest. |
Case in point, I have a lvl 44 elec/Elec tank with exactly 2 IOs. A -KB in Grounded, which I slotted in the teens, as I hate being Knocked back while jumping, or god forbid using thunderstrike (it does happen) and the Kismet in CJ, also slotted in the teens when beginners luck was wearing off. I also have a lvl 30 blaster with only 1 IO, an unbound leap stealth IO which I slotted in the early 20s to combine with the stealth power from the Devices set. I have numerous other examples, EM/Ninjitsu Stalker and Fire/Fire brute who both had -KB IOs before lvl 20, and so on.
Just to follow up here, I've gotten this build started. All the Crushing Impacts, most of the Reactive Armor, and a few things here and there like the Kismet unique. Capped to smashing/lethal with one adjacent, close to cap for energies and elements (capped in practice in a big group). Took my tank on a speed ITF and experimented with just how many Cimerorans I could have on me without noticing my HP bar moving. Good times! Obviously an Inv build with capped resist and defense to smashing/lethal isn't going to be significantly challenged by Cimerora, but it was a nice glimpse of the strength of IO sets, and it certainly makes the process feel worthwhile. It's also nice to have things to work towards on my tanker; there's a bunch still to do in terms of filling in the gaps, but I'm very pleased with how things are going and I'm excited to keep playing him. Thanks again for all the advice!
On an unrelated note, I took a look at Ice tanks and realized that with Weave and Maneuvers they can be softcapped to Smashing/Lethal and Energy/Negative without even using IOs (plus resist capped vs. cold). Could be fun to try in the future (say, Ice/Kinetic...).
I've been playing since COH beta, though I took a lengthy break from around issue 7 until this past October. My favorite character, back in the day, was an Invulnerability/Energy tank. I still like playing him, but Invulnerability is not as invulnerable as it used to be, and I've mostly benched him since I came back to the game in favor of new and seemingly more exciting characters of other archetypes. Playing him more again recently, I've found that there's some content in the game that he is just straight up not tough enough to handle, which is somewhat humbling. He's got almost no IO sets in his build right now, though, so there's a lot of room for improvement. Keeping in mind a fairly modest budget (mostly - I have a 7-8 hami-Os from back in the day that I'm willing to sell, and I don't mind doing arcs and TFs to get merits for a few key IOs), I put together a build that seemed like it would hold up better:
My goal is to end up with a tank I'm not ashamed to put forward as lead tank on Statesman or Reichsman TFs, and who can be a strong tank for future end game content. Any advice on tweaking this build without adding anything horrifically expensive is quite welcome.