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The average damage buff isn't worth it, trust me. Because it's a 5% chance to proc to grant you 100% +dam to each of your attacks for the next 5.25 seconds, that's not a 1.18 end damage modifier. Hell, it's not even close to that because your other attacks are actually getting slotted. I didn't bother doing the math because it's crazy friggin' obvious. Now that you're asking me to do it for you, I'm also going to be making sure to do my math right because it's rather obvious you can't, nor can you get all of the info right.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
But figure the math out though. Over time, with that chance being every time you fire off FU. Would have to figure its overall buff. 1.8 divided by 20 firing off chance times at least twice being used without its 10 second duration. So figure out the DPS when not slotting FU with the attack chain, and then multiply by 1.18 average damage buff from the gaussians proc. And seems really strange still that that proc is only a 5% chance and not 10% grr.
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First off, the duration isn't 10 seconds. The duration is only 5.25 seconds and you don't even get all of the 5.25 sec duration because the duration actually begins in the middle of the animation you use to get the effect. It depends upon what attack you're using, but, in general, you can only rely on getting 4.25-4.75 seconds of the buff.
Secondly, the proc is not an end damage multiplier. It is a +dam effect. It's additive with every other +dam buff that you're packing on there, including enhancement and the actual +dam buff from FU, and not multiplicative, like you seem to be assuming.
The actual +dam contribution of the Gauss proc is 5% +dam (5% chance to proc / 100% +dam when active) for roughly 4.75 seconds after. Depending on your attack string, you can get a little overlap. FU>Focus>Slash>Wait(.396 secs) is going to get 5% +dam on all of the attacks except for Focus which gets 10% (the buff fades while Focus is animating). FU>Focus>Evis is going to get 5% +dam to all of the attacks.
Now, FU has a base damage of 55.1, Focus has a base damage of 95.7, Slash has a base damage of 90.8, and Evis has a base damage of 143.2. By ignoring +dam slotting in FU, assuming 95% +dam slotting, you're giving up 52.345 (55.1 * .95) damage. In exchange, you're getting 14.11 ((95.7 * 2 + 90.8) * .05) damage from the first attack string or 11.945 ((95.7 + 143.2) * .05) damage. 52.345 is a helluva lot larger than either 14.11 or 11.945.
It should have been rather obvious from the very beginning. The Gauss proc just isn't worth it: tiny chance to proc means tiny benefit on average and short duration means you're not even really capable of stacking it. I pretty much told you as much before.
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It says that in mids i think, but i swear it lasts 10 seconds doesn't it?
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Originally Posted by Werner
I also have the proc down as only lasting for 5.25 seconds when it does fire, which seems unusual as well.
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First off I was just asking if it were, not telling you or anyone to do it, so no need for the attitude. Secondly i didn't even think to check that it only lasted 5.25 seconds. Its always in FA on my toons so i don't usually know exactly when it fires off to check to see its duration, and foolishy just assumed that it lasted 10 seconds like it SHOULD, not 5.25 crap that the devs for no reason have it at, just like its a 5% where it should clearly be 10%. These things sadden me. It would have been nice to have a better use for the proc such as a case like this, doubly sad it just isnt |
Originally Posted by Umbral
The average damage buff isn't worth it, trust me. Because it's a 5% chance to proc to grant you 100% +dam to each of your attacks for the next 5.25 seconds, that's not a 1.18 end damage modifier. Hell, it's not even close to that because your other attacks are actually getting slotted. I didn't bother doing the math because it's crazy friggin' obvious. Now that you're asking me to do it for you, I'm also going to be making sure to do my math right because it's rather obvious you can't, nor can you get all of the info right.
First off, the duration isn't 10 seconds. The duration is only 5.25 seconds and you don't even get all of the 5.25 sec duration because the duration actually begins in the middle of the animation you use to get the effect. It depends upon what attack you're using, but, in general, you can only rely on getting 4.25-4.75 seconds of the buff. Secondly, the proc is not an end damage multiplier. It is a +dam effect. It's additive with every other +dam buff that you're packing on there, including enhancement and the actual +dam buff from FU, and not multiplicative, like you seem to be assuming. The actual +dam contribution of the Gauss proc is 5% +dam (5% chance to proc / 100% +dam when active) for roughly 4.75 seconds after. Depending on your attack string, you can get a little overlap. FU>Focus>Slash>Wait(.396 secs) is going to get 5% +dam on all of the attacks except for Focus which gets 10% (the buff fades while Focus is animating). FU>Focus>Evis is going to get 5% +dam to all of the attacks. Now, FU has a base damage of 55.1, Focus has a base damage of 95.7, Slash has a base damage of 90.8, and Evis has a base damage of 143.2. By ignoring +dam slotting in FU, assuming 95% +dam slotting, you're giving up 52.345 (55.1 * .95) damage. In exchange, you're getting 14.11 ((95.7 * 2 + 90.8) * .05) damage from the first attack string or 11.945 ((95.7 + 143.2) * .05) damage. 52.345 is a helluva lot larger than either 14.11 or 11.945. It should have been rather obvious from the very beginning. The Gauss proc just isn't worth it: tiny chance to proc means tiny benefit on average and short duration means you're not even really capable of stacking it. I pretty much told you as much before. |
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Actually, its got a 5.25 sec duration for a very good reason. It's the same exact reason why the damage procs don't deal as much damage as a fully enhanced attack. The procs are designed to be weaker than their real power counterparts.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
foolishy just assumed that it lasted 10 seconds like it SHOULD, not 5.25 crap that the devs for no reason have it at
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| , just like its a 5% where it should clearly be 10%. |
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Well, I've never tested. Kinda just trusted Mids', which isn't necessarily a good idea.
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
It says that in mids i think, but i swear it lasts 10 seconds doesn't it?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
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Good stuff here - ty to all for sharing.
Go Team Venture!
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I've tested it a number of times. It only lasts slightly longer than 5 seconds. Just barely enough for a couple attacks.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Well, I've never tested. Kinda just trusted Mids', which isn't necessarily a good idea.
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5 seconds just like the Deci proc
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You're forgetting by in LARGE, how its already immeasurably weaker due to the fact that it IS a chance for build up, and therefore can NEVER guarantee when to use it, which is the way build up effects have much of any use at all to begin with. Even with 10% chance 10 second duration, with still such a low chance/time would lend it to still be so unnacountable as to still not warrant it into much of any calculations. The situation with FU i was trying to see if possible would be about the only time it could be used as such.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, its got a 5.25 sec duration for a very good reason. It's the same exact reason why the damage procs don't deal as much damage as a fully enhanced attack. The procs are designed to be weaker than their real power counterparts.
I'm curious why it "clearly" should be 10% rather than 5%. Do you have any evidence other than preference? The entire reason why the BU proc was weakened was because it was too strong. If anything, it's fine where it is because otherwise it would be too strong. |
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Of which can be slotted into say a tier 1 blaster attack and quantifiably added into attack chain calculations for ST uses. The guassians however you can never really use due to the short duration and willy nilly chance of it firing off.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
5 seconds just like the Deci proc
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It has a 5.25 sec duration (functionally 5 second) duration so that is is half as strong as a normal Build Up. It has a 5% chance of activating because it can be slotted into powers like Focused Accuracy and Follow Up. If it weren't, the proc would be capable of providing more +dam than the original power it is based off of (Build Up). There isn't a single proc in the game with that kind of power, whether unique or not, that is comparable to a power on its own.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Even with 10% chance 10 second duration, with still such a low chance/time would lend it to still be so unnacountable as to still not warrant it into much of any calculations.
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Assuming that it "should" be stronger just because of some arbitrary desire rather than realizing that, if it did follow suit with those desires, the IO would be incredibly overpowered is simply unintelligent. Acting as if slotting a single IO into a single power "should" somehow offset slotting the entirety of the power otherwise is unintelligent in the extreme. There's a reason they fixed the ability to enhance the attributes of the heal uniques. It's the exact same reason why the Gauss proc isn't as strong as you think it "should" be.
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You're still incredibly missing the utility of the proc by not knowing and therefore being able to utilize its random chance of going off. Unless you're in the middle of a ST AV killing chain fo the most part you can almost never utilize the proc going off.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
It has a 5.25 sec duration (functionally 5 second) duration so that is is half as strong as a normal Build Up. It has a 5% chance of activating because it can be slotted into powers like Focused Accuracy and Follow Up. If it weren't, the proc would be capable of providing more +dam than the original power it is based off of (Build Up). There isn't a single proc in the game with that kind of power, whether unique or not, that is comparable to a power on its own.
Assuming that it "should" be stronger just because of some arbitrary desire rather than realizing that, if it did follow suit with those desires, the IO would be incredibly overpowered is simply unintelligent. Acting as if slotting a single IO into a single power "should" somehow offset slotting the entirety of the power otherwise is unintelligent in the extreme. There's a reason they fixed the ability to enhance the attributes of the heal uniques. It's the exact same reason why the Gauss proc isn't as strong as you think it "should" be. |
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Yes, having control over something IS a benefit. I'm not denying that, so if that's all you were saying, then I agree. It is foolish to put Build Up on auto. It is better to use it when it gives you the most advantage. But to say that "you can almost never utilize the proc going off" is like saying you can almost never utilize Build Up on auto. Sure you can. 1/3 of your attacks are doing a lot more damage. Might not be the attacks you'd choose, but that's still a lot more damage over time.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
You're still incredibly missing the utility of the proc by not knowing and therefore being able to utilize its random chance of going off. Unless you're in the middle of a ST AV killing chain fo the most part you can almost never utilize the proc going off.
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But I think that the right thing to compare the proc to is OTHER damage procs, or things like Achilles' Heel. They're all in the category of random damage or "damage buffs" that you don't control. I agree that the Gaussian proc is weak in that comparison. But what happens if we double both its chance of firing and its duration?
Let's take an assumed attack chain doing 70 DPS raw, 210 DPS enhanced. How much "damage" do our proc options do?
regular damage proc = 20% chance to fire * 71.8 damage = 14.4
purple damage proc = 33% chance to fire * 107.1 = 35.3
Achilles' Heel = MAX of 20% chance to fire * 20% enhanced damage buff * 210 DPS * 10.3 seconds = 86.5 (but you could be attacking a minion that'll die long before you see that much damage out of it, mostly useful for bosses and up, unlikely to see that much damage most of the time in most builds)
Gaussian proc = MAX of 5% chance to fire * 100% raw damage buff * 70 DPS * 5.25 seconds = 18.375 (you could be at the tail end of a fight, but there's a much better chance of actually seeing that damage than with Achilles' Heel)
double double Gaussian proc = MAX of 10% chance to fire * 100% raw damage buff * 70 DPS * 10 seconds = 73.5 (more likely than before to not get full benefit from it firing)
Looking at that, I'd say it's too weak to bother with right now in most builds. Yeah, it looks slightly better than a regular damage proc, but it's FUTURE damage, not current damage, and while you may well be fighting for another five seconds, you might not. I'd just use a regular damage proc.
But with double the chance to fire and double the duration? I'd choose it over the Achilles' Heel. You're much more likely to get full advantage of it - it is much more likely that YOU'LL be fighting for the next ten seconds (Gaussian) than that your TARGET will be alive and fighting for the next ten seconds (Achilles' Heel). Useful in many more situations, where the Achilles' Heel is mostly just for killing bosses and above. Suddenly it's the most powerful damage proc in the game in most situations.
Might be a happy medium somewhere. Like maybe double the duration only. It then looks competitive with the Achilles' Heel (not as good for boss fights, probably better for regular fights). It wouldn't beat a purple proc most of the time, and shouldn't. It would beat a regular damage proc in high DPS builds, and would be competitive with a regular damage proc in low DPS builds.
My thoughts, anyway. Might have messed something up somewhere, and I'm sure Umbral will let me know.
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Except that I'm not. The devs can pretty safely assume that the proc is going to go off in combat or right before it. If it goes off in combat (as if you had slotted it in FA or Tactics), you're getting the benefits of it because, guess what, you're in combat and you're attacking! If it goes off right before combat (as if you had slotted it in BU or Aim), you're getting the benefits because, guess what, you're going to be attacking in less than a second! If it goes off while you're not in combat, so what? It's the same as if you could use the damage procs to attack the air while you're not in combat. It's not like it going off outside of combat is going to have some effect upon its chances to affect you while you're in combat later.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
You're still incredibly missing the utility of the proc by not knowing and therefore being able to utilize its random chance of going off. Unless you're in the middle of a ST AV killing chain fo the most part you can almost never utilize the proc going off.
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The point of the proc isn't to provide you with a second Build Up power that will allow you to frontload damage to take out hard targets at the beginning of combat. The point of the proc is to provide you with a short period of drastically improved damage whenever you get lucky.
True procs are, as defined by how they function, unreliable. The regular damage procs don't provide 14.36 damage; they provide a 20% chance to deal 71.8 damage. Are you really going to say that those procs are reliable when they don't do anything 4 out of 5 times? Increasing the chance to 10% or the duration to 10 seconds wouldn't make "reliable" or improve your ability to capitalize on it while it's active. It'll still be friggin rare and still only let you get in a few attacks.
The only way the devs could do anything to do what you're asking it to do is to have a game message flash on your screen saying "Gaussian's proc went off!" every time it went off so you would know it's active. Personally, I have no problem noticing that little icon on my list of powers, so it's not like it would help me much.
Considering you're "AV killing string" quip, I have to wonder: do you honestly believe that the only people that use attacks while in combat are people with AV killing attack strings? Just attack and you utilize the Gauss proc's benefits. The only time you don't benefit from it is when it goes off out of combat and, guess what, it doesn't matter anyway: you're out of combat.
Seriously, it's for arguments like this that the devs need to put a facepalm emote in game.
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that's the worst "logic" i've possibly ever heard thus far. You can't ASSUME anything, that's where the problem i've been bringing up is all stemming from, its 100% random when it goes off. I could agree with werner that even if it kept the 5% chance to go off, having a 10 second duration would at least let you utilize it more.| The devs can pretty safely assume that the proc is going to go off in combat or right before it. |
After reading your entire post, I still see no basis for your claim. You're NOT going to be attacking in less than a second when it goes off. You "might" be, but more likely than not if it does there is a main chance that it would if timed that way make you want to jump in prematurely and quite possibly get you or the team killed by doing so. At least with damage procs, you're attacking anyways, so it doesn't change anything there, or mess up any timing.
Another possibility, would be to have the buff be "sticky" When it does go off, keep its same duration/chance, but let the buff stay there, and not have the 5.25 second duraiton start until you actually start attacking. And to avoid overpowering by continuously "waiting for the battle" just to have the proc go off, have the "sticky" period last for only 30 seconds or so.
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| The only way the devs could do anything to do what you're asking it to do is to have a game message flash on your screen saying "Gaussian's proc went off!" every time it went off so you would know it's active. Personally, I have no problem noticing that little icon on my list of powers, so it's not like it would help me much. |
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/em facepalm|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
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Of COURSE it's going to go off in combat or right before it. If it's in something like Build Up or Follow Up, IF it goes off, it's going to go off right when you wanted it. If it's in something like Tactics, it will go off randomly all the time. Sometimes that will be in combat. Sometimes it won't. But the fact that you just spent an hour in Wentworths, or role playing, or whatever, doesn't make it any LESS likely to go off in combat. So who CARES that it's firing uselessly during those times? All that matters is that it STILL fires off in or right before combat.
Please don't focus on the word "assume" and reject an argument because assumption is supposed to be bad. It's a pet peeve of mine that certain perfectly-decent words have been removed from our vocabulary by bumper sticker nonsense. "If you assume, you make an *** out of you and me." "Do or do not... there is no try." The devs CAN safely assume that it will go off in combat or right before it. It has an average uptime of 5% * 5.25 second duration / 10 seconds between chances = 2.625%. That's not a lot of buff time, but it's going to be up 2.625% of the time IN combat, just the same as it's up 2.625% of the time OUT of combat. It is virtually impossible that you could have the proc and it NOT go off in combat or right before it. Almost as impossible as having a damage proc and it never firing.
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What do you honestly believe is the likelihood that you aren't attacking for any reasonably long period of time? If you aren't engaged in combat, it doesn't matter. If it does go off when you're in combat, you're already attacking. Do you not seem to grasp this concept? Each chance of occurrence is discrete and unaffected by other chances to occur. Procing out of combat has no effect on whether it will proc in combat. Just because you don't notice it doesn't make it untrue.
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
After reading your entire post, I still see no basis for your claim. You're NOT going to be attacking in less than a second when it goes off. You "might" be, but more likely than not if it does there is a main chance that it would if timed that way make you want to jump in prematurely and quite possibly get you or the team killed by doing so. At least with damage procs, you're attacking anyways, so it doesn't change anything there, or mess up any timing.
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Yes that's why when each chance to hit is separate they invented streakbreaker. And what you also seem to miss, is the way it works as a build up. With build up, you don't just, or i sure hope not, just randomly fire off build up with no cause for when you're using it. So lets say it does go off in combat, most attacks you just used, yay, you get to use a tier 1 and maybe tier 2 attack, so very hardly worth it. You seem to be expecting that because you're in combat already if it goes off, its going to mean much of a lick of anything. I'd much rather the proc be a constant small damage/to hit buff rather than the way it works now.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
What do you honestly believe is the likelihood that you aren't attacking for any reasonably long period of time? If you aren't engaged in combat, it doesn't matter. If it does go off when you're in combat, you're already attacking. Do you not seem to grasp this concept? Each chance of occurrence is discrete and unaffected by other chances to occur. Procing out of combat has no effect on whether it will proc in combat. Just because you don't notice it doesn't make it untrue.
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Chance to hit and chance to proc are not intended to be directly correlated. Streakbreaker was added specifically because people couldn't deal with the .0025% chance that they'd miss twice in a row when they had a 95% chance to hit. Acting as if streakbreaker provides any precedent for some of your opinions on the BU proc is rather demanding upon any logic system.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Yes that's why when each chance to hit is separate they invented streakbreaker.
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| And what you also seem to miss, is the way it works as a build up. With build up, you don't just, or i sure hope not, just randomly fire off build up with no cause for when you're using it. So lets say it does go off in combat, most attacks you just used, yay, you get to use a tier 1 and maybe tier 2 attack, so very hardly worth it. You seem to be expecting that because you're in combat already if it goes off, its going to mean much of a lick of anything. I'd much rather the proc be a constant small damage/to hit buff rather than the way it works now. |
Seriously, are you even listening to yourself? You're now saying that the proc needs to become a passive proc that supplies the same average benefit for no other reason that you don't like how it works when it's slotted into a toggle. If you want it for frontloading damage, stick it in BU! If you're cool with treating it like a global benefit with a random chance of occuring, then stick it in FU, Tactics, or FA. Quit acting like there is some horrible problem with the proc just because you don't like how it works even though it works perfectly fine and accomplishes exactly what it's intended to accomplish for every other person that uses it.
nono, you're absolutely right. Because YOU don't seem to have a problem with it, I must be wrong. What was I thinking. Because the devs decided on those stats, it must be right.
Cause everything they do is just fine. Oh no, people didn't have a problem with ED. Everyone who said they did must have just been crazy. (not flaming ED, overall I'm glad for it, don't tangent that example). Seriously think though, if it lasted for 10 seconds, instead of 5.25 would that overpower the proc. Would people be doing something SO game breaking with that that they would need to nerf the proc. No. Would it cause you physical and mental anguish if it lasted 4.75 more seconds? Sounds like it might.
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Actually, if it lasted 4.75 seconds longer, it would be too strong. Just look at the numbers Werner put up. By doubling the duration, you'd be doubling the power of the proc and allow that rare proc to deal more damage than a purple proc. The only proc that breaks that is the AH proc and there's a reasonably good reason for that (i.e. it's useless against minions). Just look at Werner's numbers. It's pretty much balanced with other rare procs.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Would people be doing something SO game breaking with that that they would need to nerf the proc. No. Would it cause you physical and mental anguish if it lasted 4.75 more seconds? Sounds like it might.
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If you think it should be stronger, show some evidence of it. If you know anything about me, you'd realize that I don't agree with half of what the devs do. I simply agree with the devs when they're, you know, in the right. However, if there is something wrong that needs correcting, I have no problem pointing it out but I do so with numbers, logic, and precedent rather than screaming "should be"s and "wants" without any supporting evidence. Try doing that and, maybe, you might actually make some ground rather than looking like a petulant child.
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Well, it would only be better than a purple proc for high DPS builds, let's say over 200 DPS. And even then, since a purple proc is damage now, and the build up proc is damage in the future, I'd be prone to taking the purple proc on anything but an AV and pylon soloer. But given the difference in rarity, I don't think I should be trying to choose between a purple proc and a build up proc. I think I should be trying to choose between a regular damage proc and a build up proc. And that's about where we sit today, with the Build Up proc almost always losing. Maybe not by much, but losing.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, if it lasted 4.75 seconds longer, it would be too strong. Just look at the numbers Werner put up. By doubling the duration, you'd be doubling the power of the proc and allow that rare proc to deal more damage than a purple proc.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
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And as mentioned by werner, in the higher DPS builds. Lets say the build up proc is on a controller like an ice controller. Build up proc lasting 5.25 seconds when you have chilblain, block of ice and frostbite, not really winning anyone over there. Or as in multitudes i've said, AND EXPERIENCE YES UMBRAL, with its timing, YES AS IN TOGGLES, the inability to response for its random firing never allows you to utilize it and far more often than not, not have a worthwhile, or even necessary attack to use when it does fire off.
In a build up power, what build up is already doing is what you rely on. With note that in most builds after BU is fired off, unless you have very high recharge to get your strongest attacks recharged within that time limit of build up, you save them for last of the duration that you've calculated due to them usually having the longest animations and the buff portion working on the power from the start of the animation. Meaning the actual build up proc part of the buff, is being used on the lower scale attacks because the proc duration wears out before the build up duration does.
But what do I know, i'm just a petulant child right?
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In a toggle, it's a 2.625% raw damage buff on average. I don't know how timing keeps entering into this. Y'all must be trying harder than me for every last possible point of damage. I'm not sitting around holding onto my big attacks until I see it fire, because it almost never fires. I don't bother looking for the icon. I just run my attack chain. On rare occasions, I do more damage. I usually don't even notice.
I understand what you're saying about holding off on high damage powers until the end of build up. But generally, I'm firing my high damage powers FIRST, and then wanting them recharged and firing a second time by the end of Build Up, so if a proc fired it would indeed help my biggest attacks. But in all honesty, I don't do that in practice. I'm not that careful. In practice, I see it recharge, then insert it in my chain as soon as makes sense. So I'm buffing an average selection of attacks, not an ideal selection of attacks. Well, unless it's the build up before hopping into a group. Those buff the attacks I intended, and I usually lead with my nastiest attacks.
You're right about my analysis being with a fairly high DPS Scrapper. Some do more, but most do less, making the proc less valuable for them. Blasters probably tend to do more, making it more valuable. Most other ATs do less, making it less valuable. Some high end DPS Scrappers might benefit as it stands now. Most probably will not. Most other ATs except Blasters probably don't benefit from it either most of the time.
In general, I'd say it's a little underpowered now, and if the duration was doubled, it would be a little overpowered. Not too far out of line either way. I think that's the range of reasonableness they can play with.
But since it's already in the range of reasonableness, I wouldn't hold my breath to get it buffed to the top end of reasonableness.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks