Claws/SR AV Killer help

Actually, it wouldn't. The DPS of the build itself doesn't matter significantly because it's modifying base damage, not to mention that the "benefit" of the proc actually extends past the duration of the proc thanks to only needing +dam at the time of the power's activation. Even with a series of quick animating powers, you're still going to get more than the 5 second assumed duration thanks to that.

What you're discounting is that the "damage later" is delayed over the course of less than 5 seconds. It's not going to be a particularly big issue of immediacy when, unlike the AH proc, the damage is delayed only by an attack or two and the damage is global rather than specific, so killing the target doesn't end it whatsoever especially when it's coupled with a substantial +tohit buff as well (which shouldn't be discounted because, while it isn't always particularly useful, it's still a benefit that has some effect upon the balance consideration).

I'm curious to see how exactly the BU proc is losing out compared to a rare damage proc. The BU proc deals more damage, and it actually applies its benefit to all damage dealt rather than to a single specific attack. The fact that the damage is delayed is minor when you factor in the ability for a player to capitalize on the activation by using multiple target attacks to guarantee use, not to mention that it doesn't suffer from the problem that AH does wherein the proc is virtually useless against a vast majority of targets.

The procs do not exist solely within the confines of single target design. They exist within the entire structure and assuming that the entire balance paradigm of procs is based upon the specific design of single target damage is ignoring a substantially larger portion of the design as a whole, especially since a much larger portion of the game is consumed by multi-target functionality than by the single hard target functionality that this forum so often revolves around.

So you honestly believe that ice controllers should form the basis of proc functionality? By that same logic, every ranged damage proc in existence should be weaker because of Rad Defenders with Neutrino Bolt.

Except that every attack is worthwhile. Hell, show me how many top end attack strings don't have an attack used at least once every 5 seconds? For virtually every Scrapper attack string, that 5 seconds is going to equate to a every attack getting a piece of that.

What you're continually forgetting is that you're always assuming worst case. You might as well assume that defense sets are always going to die because it has a 5% chance to get hit from every attack. The game isn't balanced against the worst case. Each portion of your attack string has the same chance of getting the benefit of the BU buff. Just because you think it's a problem that you're not always going to be able to have your big, angry attack of hateful facebeatery ready for when it is up doesn't mean that you will never have it up. Hell, if that attack constitutes such a small portion of your attack string, why the hell are you even bothering?

Actually, in most builds that intelligent people use that know how BU works, they let fly with their most powerful attack first because the primary advantage of BU is the ability to frontload that damage and take out hard targets incredibly quickly. You don't see Arch Blasters using Fistful of Arrows, Explosive Arrow and then Rain of Arrows after they use BU and Aim. It's pretty much the reverse order of that because you want to use your biggest, angriest attack first in order to get that burst damage in.

Actually, you're a petulant, ignorant, demanding, and self righteous child. Get it right, though I guess the chances of that happening are about as likely as you actually admitting that opinion and individual data points don't trump fact and statistical rigor. You've already as much as admitted that you don't have a clue what's going on when you didn't even know what the values on the proc were in the first place and yet you still believe that there is some magical reason that exists somewhere amidst fantasy and probability that what you believe should be trumps what actually is.

This isn't an issue of quantifiable weakness that generates a noticeable degree of underperformance. If you had actually put forth any numbers that said anything even remotely resembling that, I would actually give what you're saying some credence. As it stands, all you've said is that it doesn't perform as well as you want it to in all situations except for the ones that you bring up because they don't matter because those aren't the ones you care about. You don't care that the distribution of activation is even. You just care that the proc can occur in such a way that you're not going to get as much as humanly possible out of it. This is a game where random chance plays a rather significant chance in everything that occurs. Just because random chance can decrease the effect of something rather than always give you the opportunity to ream whatever you see in the *** doesn't mean that it's broken. Hell, if anything, that means it's working.

Dangnabbit. I've been trying to be careful about what's a raw damage buff and what's a final damage buff, but I still managed to confuse myself. Ah, well. Sorry. My dumb. *chuckle*

Ah, yeah. Not sure why I wasn't considering that. A bit more troublesome to quantify, but it shouldn't be ignored either.

You're right. I'm probably discounting the "damage later" by too much in my subjective evaluation.

Uh... you mean with the current % and uptime? Didn't I already do this math? I came up with 18.375 average "damage" for the proc in the example. We could argue that I should extend the 5.25 seconds a bit, I suppose. Still, it's not going to hit the average damage of 35.3 from the purple damage proc, assuming that's what you mean by "a rare damage proc". Did I misunderstand what you meant by a rare damage proc? Did I mess up the math?

Wait! Sorry, I think I know what you're talking about. You're talking about where I was saying I'd rather have the purple proc than the Gaussian with twice the duration, right? Because my own math would then put the build up proc at slightly more damage than the purple proc, but I was still saying I'd prefer the purple proc? I think I was discounting the "damage later" by too much, though that might be balanced by the possibility that we're at the tail end of a fight (assuming the proc is in an attack) so don't get the full five seconds. Still, it seems like average damage of it would be comparable to the purple proc, plus it comes with extra to hit. So yeah, on second thought, with the things you've pointed out, I'd probably go with the double duration build up proc instead of the purple proc. Chances are I'd have both, but if I had to choose, the double duration build up proc might be the better choice.

And if that's true, then it seems like the current build up proc with its current duration might be better than I've been giving it credit for. Maybe I need to reexamine some slotting and actually do some calculations in real builds rather than just thinking, "Oh, that's the build up proc. It's lame." Mind you, pretty much the only time I end up with damage procs is when they're parts of sets, so it may not affect any of my current builds. Something I should keep in mind in the future, though. Might affect my Fire/Shield, since I'm considering going for max damage output instead of max survivability.

Except when AV killing or pylon soloing, where Build Up is being used ONLY to improve DPS. In that case, some very careful timing might be of minor use. When I'm doing DPS calculations, I may well carefully tune which attacks go when to maximize use of the Build Up for DPS purposes. Ending up with a long activating big-hitter at the end up the Build Up is good in that case. But generally, it's the second or third activation of the big hitter in the build up period. And I don't play the game that carefully by any means. I'm a lazy gamer.

So I understand what Windenergy21 is talking about with wanting to put the big attack at the end. But using Build Up purely for DPS is a bit of an aberration in the game as a whole. The basic use of Build Up is for burst damage, where you want as much up front as possible, so most people in most situations will lead with their big attacks.

Actually, they use RoA first because it only gets the buff towards the end of the animation. Meaning if you wait to cast it, if the buff wears off before the arrows land, its not going to get the buff. And that Most INTELLIGENT people otherwise, who wish to maximize their damage output, will figure what powers can recharge in the biuld up time, which usually leaves your big heavy hitters with long animations to be towards the end of the build up duration to maximize the buff. In addition to using them first, with their long animation when they don't recharge within the build up duration means that its taking up time you can fit other powers that can recharge in that time with small enough animations increasing the damage you can do during the build up duration.

But again, what do I know, I'm just a petulant, ignorant, demanding, and self righteous child right?

It seems like we've so far identified three possible cases for using Build Up, which are largely based on how long an enemy is expected to be standing.

1) Pure burst damage to take down lesser enemies that won't be alive in ten seconds.
2) Maximum damage output on an enemy expected to be standing for more than ten seconds, but less than a Build Up recharge.
3) Pure DPS to take down hard targets that will survive for more than a full Build Up cycle, like AVs and pylons.

The first case seems by far the most common to me. I spend the vast majority of the game destroying crowds, and even on +4x8, minions aren't likely to last ten seconds. Some harder targets in the crowd will likely survive past the Build Up duration, but I still want to front load the damage, leading with my AoEs to eliminate minions, then my heavy hitters to eliminate a few more targets. In that case, the 5.25 second duration of the proc, used in Build Up itself, is buffing my AoE and a heavy hitter or two. I'm taking maximum advantage of the proc.

The second case seems rare to me. I'm trying to think of good examples. Maybe an uplevel boss farm? An Elite Boss where you want to leave the minions alive as fuel for some power? In those cases, yes, you'll be best off with an attack sequence where your biggest, longest attack happens at the end of the Build Up duration so as to get maximum overall damage out of a single Build Up. In this case, delaying big attacks is taking sub-optimal advantage of the Build Up PROC, but optimal advantage of the Build Up. This seems to be the situation you're focusing in on when suggesting that you won't get maximum benefit out of the Build Up proc, even in Build Up.

The third case is also rare. But unless you have a very carefully tuned recharge so that you can repeat your optimal damage sequence of attacks right after Build Up recharges, you'll likely be best off just hitting Build Up as soon as it recharges. In this case, you're taking merely average advantage of the Build Up proc. It is buffing a random selection of your attacks.

So from my perspective, you're focusing on rare cases to support your point, where most of the cases will actually support the opposite point, and some support neither point.

BU lasts 10 seconds. RoA takes 4 seconds to cast and the pseudo pet is summoned 1.8 seconds into the animation. You can easily get off 2 attacks before losing BU functionality for RoA. Seriously, do you just say things without ever checking the information to make sure what you're saying sync with the known values? You're proving absolutely everything I've been saying about you this entire time.

Actually I go by experience, upon which I'll 100% admit my wrongful doing in this matter. Based on experience, you don't hold off RoA, with the far too many chances that you will be held, stunned, slept, knocked back etc if you're granting the mobs notice before trying to cast your RoA in the build up duration. Not to mention having them being notified and moving around outside of RoA's radius prematurely.

I do follow numbers when called for, why i love messing around with defense/resistance/regeneration builds for scrappers and the like, but I'll fullheartedly admit to going off experience first. In the case of the proc. Much like the debate between computers and the human brain. The brain can take in much more information and comprehend and analyze it faster than the best computer we could ever imagine. Sure the computer could analzye it, but we all know before it tries whether the ball is coming near us to catch it or not, get the drift? There is always way more to factor in that just the numbers.