No, if memory serves me correct IH was completely enhanceable.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Well, it depends on which time you're referring to.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
No, if memory serves me correct IH was completely enhanceable.
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In I1, Integration had no +regen and what regen it had was still in IH. All of the +regen was fully enhanceable. Some time later, I believe I2, some of IH's +regen was pulled out and placed in Integration. A wee bit later, I believe I3, IH and Integration both got hit with the nerf stick when IH's values were reduced a bit and both IH's and Integration's +regen was split so that some of the value wasn't enhanceable and some of it wasn't. Then, in I4 if I'm not mistaken, IH was made into a click power with the same values as the toggle, only without being able to be made perma.
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yes...and no....|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Well, it depends on which time you're referring to.
In I1, Integration had no +regen and what regen it had was still in IH. All of the +regen was fully enhanceable. Some time later, I believe I2, some of IH's +regen was pulled out and placed in Integration. A wee bit later, I believe I3, IH and Integration both got hit with the nerf stick when IH's values were reduced a bit and both IH's and Integration's +regen was split so that some of the value wasn't enhanceable and some of it wasn't. Then, in I4 if I'm not mistaken, IH was made into a click power with the same values as the toggle, only without being able to be made perma. |
Shortly after go launch, integration had a MUCH higher end cost and no regeneration, it was status protection only. Instant Healing was PURE healing, and was also a high end toggle. The thinking was that players wouldn't want to take QR and stamina and six slot them both.
A change on test was that integration and IH were mutually exclusive, and healing was added to integration. That didn't go over too well...so, IH was lowered and integration kept its healing AND had its end cost lowered (yeah, so it a buff...). IH was changed to a click during the GDR.
Toggle IH was well over 1000% healing, though I don't remember the exact figures. Click IH iis break even with 1000% fully slotted (I believe)..
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No, toggle IH was 1000%, at least in I2, which is when I created mine. I had 5 Golgis in it and that was 2666% total regen rate (before I got to HOs, I had 2 endred and 3 heals for 2000%). I didn't get to HOs until after they were nerfed down to the regular SO schedules. (Prior to that they were always 50% enhancement.)|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
Toggle IH was well over 1000% healing, though I don't remember the exact figures. Click IH iis break even with 1000% fully slotted (I believe)..
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It's still 1000%, but it's 800% unenhanceable and 200% enhanceable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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I3 is when I came around lol
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Well, it depends on which time you're referring to.
In I1, Integration had no +regen and what regen it had was still in IH. All of the +regen was fully enhanceable. Some time later, I believe I2, some of IH's +regen was pulled out and placed in Integration. A wee bit later, I believe I3, IH and Integration both got hit with the nerf stick when IH's values were reduced a bit and both IH's and Integration's +regen was split so that some of the value wasn't enhanceable and some of it wasn't. Then, in I4 if I'm not mistaken, IH was made into a click power with the same values as the toggle, only without being able to be made perma. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Likewise, and I didn't roll up my first regen until issue 5 so I missed out on the "window of uberness" of toggle IH. |
Originally Posted by Santorican
I3 is when I came around lol
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Oh, and Uber, HO's stayed at the 50% level until a fair way through issue 4... CMA didn't hit 50 until week one of issue 4 and I vividly remember 6 slotting Seismic Smash with the 50/50% Nucleolus HO's and how incredibly hard it hit. Then we got the first pebbles of Nerfageddon with the HO nerf, followed closely by the GDN of issue 5 and ED of issue 6.
The issue 5-8 era wasn't the best of times... we were told that all the nerfs were needed to allow for this new shiny IO system that was coming soon... it only took nearly 3 years to arrive. Most of us who were here for all the chaos still aren't happy about how it was handled.
I will say that the current game as it is now really is better than it was in the glory days, and the Dev's were probably correct about the need for the nerfs. The huge time delay though between the "nuke it from orbit" nerfs of issue 5-6 and the eventual restoration with the IO system was way out of line though. On the other hand, that was in the Jack Emmert days.
Well, I guess I've well and truly derailed the thread, so I may as well go all out. How 'bout them <insert sports team of choice>?
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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They suck and the <other team> are better.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Well, I guess I've well and truly derailed the thread, so I may as well go all out. How 'bout them <insert sports team of choice>?
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It was a common joke for about 2 years that every issue /regen got nerfed... AND it was still the best scrapper set. True or not, I think that was still the general belief until IO's came along... and even then it took 4-5 months before people started to figure out how to use really take advantage of IO sets.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Ah yes, I well remember that. Even today Regen is a good performer... I consider it about the best performer in the early game then leveling off in the mid-20's to mid-30's as the other sets start to catch their stride. Late game Regen is still capable but sometimes outperformed by other sets.|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
It was a common joke for about 2 years that every issue /regen got nerfed... AND it was still the best scrapper set. True or not, I think that was still the general belief until IO's came along... and even then it took 4-5 months before people started to figure out how to use really take advantage of IO sets.
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Of course you can build around the problem areas with judicious IO bonuses and power selections... my first scrapper, a BS/Regen, is currently sitting at ~30% defense to all and soft capped Melee in addition to ~700% full time regen and a bit over 120% global recharge. It's highly durable and a good damage dealer.
Back in issue 3 (where I came into the game) conventional wisdom was that if something couldn't kill a mature regen in 10 seconds it couldn't EVER kill it.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Back in the days when you could go afk in the middle of an mob consisting of an AV and his entire cadre of guards and come back with them still beating on you for 10 minutes still at full health.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Back in issue 3 (where I came into the game) conventional wisdom was that if something couldn't kill a mature regen in 10 seconds it couldn't EVER kill it.
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Yeah, toggle IH needed a hardcore nerfing. Of course, you had to slot the hell out of it just to make it even remotely usable because it cost so friggin' much.
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Not to mention six slotting stamina as well because it was a huge endurance hog.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Back in the days when you could go afk in the middle of an mob consisting of an AV and his entire cadre of guards and come back with them still beating on you for 10 minutes still at full health.
Yeah, toggle IH needed a hardcore nerfing. Of course, you had to slot the hell out of it just to make it even remotely usable because it cost so friggin' much. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Yes, I still play.
This thread brings me back. For those of you not here since launch, I actually managed to find a list I made of every change to regen, sorted by Issue. So here's a look at all the early changes to the set.
By the way, since all of this was before Real Numbers, you had to spend a long time testing out your regen rate by flying to a zone ceiling, falling all the way down repeated until you could time how long it took to see 10-15 ticks of regen go by.
Oh, and you had to do this many, many times, first without any enhancements to see if the base rate changes, then again to see if the enhanceable % of the power changed.
It was super annoying which is why no one did it except for, literally, about 3 people.
LAUNCH
FH - 40% regen
QR - 3% recovery
Recon - 25% heal, 60s recharge
DP - 40% max HP, 40% heal, 360s recharge. +HP was not affected by slotting.
Int - cost .8eps, only status protection
Res - 5.625% res to Smash/Lethal
IH - toggle, cost 1.52eps, 1000% base regen, fully enhanceable
Rev - 25% HP, no end
MoG - base buff of ~71% def and res. drops you to 10% HP. Res cap is 90% at this point. 400s recharge, 90s duration
-For reference, at this time, Health gave you 33% regen and Stamina was 25% recovery.
-Also, because of a lack of Real Numbers, people had no idea how Stamina and QR worked. People thought that Stamina raised your recovery amount(it would make your recovery tick be greater than 5%) and they thought that QR made the ticks come faster. Man, we were ignorant.
-DP is perma with 4 recharges and perma Hasten. Most did not slot for heals as the +HP wasn't affected. And healing didn't matter with IH.
-Just for reference, the regen cap is 3000%. You could cap if you could stand the end drain. Some DM/Regens can, most run with 2-3 end rdx in IH.
-MoG wasn't that bad because the Defense was actually bugged! It was coded as Base Defense, which works against all attack types. Not that there was any reason to take it with IH like it was.
-the goal was to skip Recon, not slot FH and tough it out until IH.
Issue 1 & Issue 2
NO CHANGES
Issue 3 version 1, on test
Recon - added 20% toxic resists
Int - lowered cost to .4eps, given 400% regen, made exclusive to IH
IH - still toggle, now 800% regen base, 1/2 enhanceable, made exclusive to Int
MoG - Res cap lowered to 75%. caps your regen at 1/4 the base rate (you'll take 16 minutes to heal a full bar), drops you to 25% HP, added toxic resists, lowered recharge such that is was PERMA, healing allowed.
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Making IH and status protection exclusive was, frankly, frakking stupid. In Issue 3, the Tanks were rewarded for 3 issues of fighting by having all their armors switched and allowed to stack. That's right, Tanks had nonstacking armors at first. /DA remained unfixed for a long while though.
And those "geniuses" thought it would be a good idea, at the same time they gave stacking armor to the Tanks, to take it from Regen. It was perceived as incredibly insulting.
There was no ED yet, so this version of Regen was not bad as Int could be slotted to give 1200% regen. With DP, it was quite workable.
Also, this version of MoG was BROKEN. You could literally tank multiple Giant Monsters while AFK. We asked for it to be fixed before the other ATs coughblasterscough screamed bloody murder.
Issue 3 version 2, on test
INT & IH- changed to allow stacking again
MoG - regen and healing were taken away.
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Again, this version was damn good because even though IH could only get up to 2000% regen, Integration was allowed to be 1200% enhanced. So you were still capped, it just took a lot more slots.
Issue 3, live
Integration - lowered to 200% regen.
--Call it a gross error, call it a stealth nerf, call it what you will, people were pissed. I was the one who discovered this and was not happy to be the bearer of bad news. The devs apologized after we brought it to their attention and claimed that it was a forgotten patch note.
Issue 4 version 1 on test
Int - base 200% regen was now split into 100% enhanceable, 100% not enhanceable.
IH - base 800% regen was not lowered but the enhanceable split was changed from 400/400 to 200/600, capping IH at 1200% down from 1600%.
MoG - as part of a game wide change, MoG is given a 180s duration and 1000s recharge
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Honestly, this just felt like a big slap in the face. You have no idea how much enjoyment other ATs took at seeing these nerfs.
Issue 4 version 2 on test
Fast Healing - raised to 75% base regen.
- of course, Health was raised to 40% at the same time.
Issue 5 version 1 on test
Integration - unenhanceable portion was lowered from 100% to 50%. base is now 150%.
IH - Now a click. 60s duration, 500s recharge
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again, people got super pissed.
Issue 5 version 2 live
IH - duration raised to 90s, recharge is now 650s
Issue 5
Enhancement Diversification.
-I didn't have my computer for a week so I missed the first day of forum reactions. People went, and this is putting it mildly, Batsh** crazy. that's all I'll say.
After all the other nerfs, this took a big chunk out of our remaining regen% and even our heals with the affect on Hasten.
Issue 6 on live
Dull Pain - max HP is now affect by slotting heals.
Integration - all mez protection in the game was lowered. Scrappers went from having max of 16 mez protection to 9.
MoG - The bug in the defense is finally found and it is switched from Base Defense (alldmg, all pos), to (S/L,FCEN,T)
-- I'll be honest, the DP change was awesome. Love that change. The MoG fix official made the power something people treated as skippable.
Issue 7
Arcanaville's Defense fixes were applied to the game, changing many tohit buffs to Acc buffs, fixing the hell out of SR but also indirectly nerfing MoG as the tohit floor was effectively raised by the inherent acc buffs now applied to the Mobs. MoG is officially less that useless in the eyes of many.
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▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Nah, you just needed QR and Stamina. 6 slotting them was to...I guess insure your blue bar NEVER moved from 100. I recall my earliest DM/Regen tried my best to NOT take Stamina because I hated the idea of required powers (Stamina and Hasten being the main offenders), but I eventually caved since running IH was a monster hog like running Focused Accuracy is, but I never had a problem with endo again after stamina. Maybe I had just learned how to manage my blue bar better (like turning off sprint in combat--how hard was that for people?)|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Not to mention six slotting stamina as well because it was a huge endurance hog.
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I still dislike the glowing pom pom hands of Hasten. Geko could've saved himself a lot of trouble if he had just gone after the root of much evil, Hasten. But in those days he had to worry about things like Regenners being ubergods who couldn't die without taking a massive alpha hit because of IH, Fire Armor using burn to PL off incinerating swarms of rikti monkeys and DE swarms, City of Blasters crying about how they were in permanent debt, Jack demanding they put lolpvp into their MASSIVELY IMBALANCED GAME instead of doing something useful with their time, and Castle...well, Castle probably just doesn't want to rock the boat that much once he took over I guess. Here's to hoping Babs gets Power Pool Customization in so you can turn those stupid glowies off. I still think Hasten should've traded places with SR's Quickness. Hasten is so ludicrously powerful...even moreso back when you could perma it without trouble. I mean, nowadays you can perma it again with IOs, of course, but that costs time and money and fiddling around with builds in mids.
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I tried to do the same with my DM/Regen....I also caved and eventually took Stamina..mostly so I could do stupidly difficult things like...soloing the original Respec trial.
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Originally Posted by Iannis
Nah, you just needed QR and Stamina. 6 slotting them was to...I guess insure your blue bar NEVER moved from 100. I recall my earliest DM/Regen tried my best to NOT take Stamina because I hated the idea of required powers (Stamina and Hasten being the main offenders), but I eventually caved since running IH was a monster hog like running Focused Accuracy is, but I never had a problem with endo again after stamina. Maybe I had just learned how to manage my blue bar better (like turning off sprint in combat--how hard was that for people?)
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I miss the original Respec trial. It's so watered down and boring now.
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Originally Posted by Ignatz
I tried to do the same with my DM/Regen....I also caved and eventually took Stamina..mostly so I could do stupidly difficult things like...soloing the original Respec trial.
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Off topic - it's easy now? I've never done it. I've never been short on respecs. But I just convinced... er... forced a friend to get a trial account, and he's already made a few minor errors in his build (slots in Brawl, for instance). One of the things he was complaining about in <other MMO> was being forced into pick up groups with stupid people. So when I saw build mistakes, I was worried that he'd have to run a really difficult trial with a pick up group, and end up hating CoH for the exact same reason. Sounds like it's a piece of cake now?
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Originally Posted by Silas
I miss the original Respec trial. It's so watered down and boring now.
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It is for any reasonably competent group... most of the time you're just sitting in the reactor room waiting for the next spawn... and waiting... Oh, we have baddies at door #3, kill kill kill, where's the next spawn... waiting...|
Originally Posted by Werner
Off topic - it's easy now? I've never done it. I've never been short on respecs. But I just convinced... er... forced a friend to get a trial account, and he's already made a few minor errors in his build (slots in Brawl, for instance). One of the things he was complaining about in <other MMO> was being forced into pick up groups with stupid people. So when I saw build mistakes, I was worried that he'd have to run a really difficult trial with a pick up group, and end up hating CoH for the exact same reason. Sounds like it's a piece of cake now?
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A PuG of all newbies and/or extremely low damage might find it a problem but I haven't had any difficulty in years. Oh, setting the difficulty slider to "11" would cause problems but in general any team capable of running typical missions successfully can handle the respec.
Oh, and your buddy with the borked build? He can use his second build as a "ghetto respec" to correct his mistakes; he'd just need new enhancements... not much of an issue in the low levels anyway.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Doh! Why didn't I think of that? Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Oh, and your buddy with the borked build? He can use his second build as a "ghetto respec" to correct his mistakes; he'd just need new enhancements... not much of an issue in the low levels anyway.
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Were the regeneration values the same when this power was a toggle?