Thugs Poison: Not living up to the hype?
By
Berzerker_NA,
Posted on: 2010-02-25 11:48 in Masterminds
Well, first of all, even though you think you didn't leave anything out, without actually seeing your build, what you took when and how you slotted it, we really can't give any advice, other than basic playstyle advice.
I've found Thugs (50 Thug/Dark here) to be rather good for Small mobs, but not so good at larger ones. They don't really have any inherent resistances to give them an edge against lots of incoming damage, and the bruiser can only draw so much aggro when you consider he doesn't have taunt or a taunt aura. So stick to small mobs.
Poison actually supports this play style, it's best debuffs being single target. So you would probably be best off if you set your rep to +2 or +3, spawned for 1-2 people tops. Leadership pool is very handy to delve into, Maneuvers and Assault will stack with the Enforcer's versions to give some pretty good buffs. Tactics won't really be needed, at least solo, because the Enforcers have it and Supremacy gives a tohit buff to all your pets.
Another thing you could look into is Tankerminding. Pick up Provoke from the Presence pool, and Tough/Weave, plus your epic armor, and take the aggro onto yourself. Keep your pets in BG mode and you can have better effective resistance than any scrapper, and some tanks, could ever get, so long as your pets are alive. The reason this works is bodyguard mode cuts the final damage you take down, so if you have say 50% S/L resistance, then 50% gets thrown away right off the bat, then the remaining 50% gets divided up, 25% to you, and 12.5% to each pet. All told, you've taken 12.5% of the total attack, and each pet has taken 6.75%. That's pretty good, effectively 87.5% S/L resistance. So yes, you can Tankermind. If you wanted to try to softcap def instead of building up resistance, then you could literally become nigh unkillable, so long as you have pets around. Watch out of AoEs!
But yeah, give us your build and we'll see what you got and what may be able to be changed for better performance.
Hi everyone. 
I had much the same problem as you with my Thugs/Poison MM (now 50). Mostly it was the end drain that was frustrating me. This was one of my first few 50s and my second 50 on vill side. When it comes to MMs I'm still very newish.
So I searched the forums and found Poison Pill's guide for thugs/mms. I built my toon exactly like the build shown in the guide and it's pretty good. The build is only an SO build though and I'm not sure where to go from there. As far as IO sets go.
Here's the guide:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=Thug%2FPosion
I'd also suggest this thread, it helped me out some to:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=203804
I hope that helps some.
Take Care
Thanks for the advice guys. The links are very useful.
I'm not able to put my hands on the Mids build I'm using - tho it does have Manoeuveres and Tough/Weave - I've no direct attacks myself, other than Nem staff and GSA vet rewards, tho I can see it could be tweaked a bit.
I'm reading the links in depth so what I shall probably do is get a handle on them get a few more mil Inf and a respec and see where that leads me
Thelonious Monk
I would just like to personally add that the whole Poison secondary is as close to overpowered as you can get in this game. For me it lives up to and exceeds the hype. Infact /poison is the hands down winner of all secondaries for the MM. especially with thugs you should be nuking AV's / Heroes out of the park with hardly any scratches to your henchmen. But if you still feel you don't like the poison set, why not try traps or pain, both of those are also good for thugs (traps being better IMO)
Have to agree, thugs/poison completely changed my attitude towards MMs (from "god, this is boring" thanks to my Bot/FF to "Woohoo!") It's the only one I've "accidentally" soloed an AV on. (As in, wasn't planned, turned the corner and "Oh, there they are - oh, and an AV. Er - what the hell, why not.")
But yeah. Thug/Poison (specifically /poison) is geared more towards fewer, hard targets instead of masses of weak targets.
And I did enjoy having a bunch of little thugs from Gang War beating on Recluse. >.>
Quote:
I don't get this - poison is an ok secondary that gets some nice single target debuffs early on but based on numbers and my experience in playing and then eventually giving up on a necro/poison it doesn't even begin to match things like dark or storm, at least until you get noxious gas. Now, it isn't obvious if NG is up all the time or not - neither mids nor redtomax specify if there is a duration on the power. If it stays on the pet until you dismiss it or the pet dies then I agree, by L38 this set will rock. |
Originally Posted by Meowzer
I would just like to personally add that the whole Poison secondary is as close to overpowered as you can get in this game. For me it lives up to and exceeds the hype. Infact /poison is the hands down winner of all secondaries for the MM. especially with thugs you should be nuking AV's / Heroes out of the park with hardly any scratches to your henchmen. But if you still feel you don't like the poison set, why not try traps or pain, both of those are also good for thugs (traps being better IMO)
|
Even then, that still leaves 38 levels where your only AE defense is the slow in neurotoxic breath and if noxious gas isn't up all the time then it's not even nearly overpowered. Compared to the stacking AE to hit debuffs and control in dark, or slows, debuffs and KB in storm I just haven't been able to convince myself to play a poison MM.
Seriously - how hard/easy is the trip to 38 compared to dark, storm or traps, all 3 of which strike me as just as 'powerfull' as poison and much better balanced over the entire life of the character.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I have a thugs/poison, and honestly that character is always teetering on the edge of deletion. Firstly, I fully recognize that I have a weird playstyle. I don't team very often, and I'll aggressively resist taking "must have" powers unless they actually fit the character. (I loathe Hasten, never even consider the Fighting or Presence pools, and only have Leadership powers on two characters out of over fifty. And one of those is a VEAT.) I also tend to take the Mastermind personal attacks with the intention of actually using them. I'm aware of the fact that there are tricks for making totally unstoppable characters, but I have zero interest in the theorycrafting needed to achieve it. (I know, in a general way, what the defense softcap is and why it's desirable. I just have no ambition to even try to reach it.)
Even considering all that, I can usually find a build that I enjoy playing. But not with Thugs/Poison. Part of it is simply that the animations don't fit my character - I wanted to make a rogue chemist, not a mutant, yet I'm stuck with a bunch of powers where I'm spitting venom at people. I've tried using the "must have" powers that I'm high-level enough to use, and I don't really care for them. At level 22, I have the "you're stuck with it" heal, Evenom and Weaken. I tried Venomous Breath, and dropped it. My understanding is that Poison Trap is a joke, and I can't see the point of taking Paralytic Toxin - what good is a weak single target hold? Noxious Gas is the only other power that currently looks useful.
I made a thugs/poison, played it to lv 41, and then got sick of it and rerolled it as a Thugs/Pain. While Thugs/Poison is great for killing single enemies, and later an effective group killer, I didn't think it was as much fun at lv 41 as my Thugs/Pain is at lv 24.
Too many alts to list.
I've done a lot of reading but I've also worked on a build for my toon in Mids. I actually really dislike the Fighting pool, and I've had very good results with Stealth backed up with a Stealth IO for far few powers costs so I'd be glad of feedback on this.
I've included the Hami-Os cuz... well I already have them, but if somene can make a better suggestion.
I would just like to add I'd like to be able to use this toon to duo ITF - I've come close on a number of occasions but always fail at the last hurdle.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
SPG v 3: Level 50 Technology Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Poison
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs
- (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (3) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (9) Edict of the Master - Defense Bonus
- (31) Kinetic Crash - Accuracy/Damage/Knockback
- (36) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
- (A) Healing IO
- (3) Recharge Reduction IO
- (5) Healing IO
- (A) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff
- (5) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Defense Debuff
- (13) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Recharge
- (15) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
- (43) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (46) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage
- (A) Siphon Insight - ToHit Debuff
- (7) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/ToHit Debuff
- (7) Siphon Insight - ToHit Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
- (11) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/Recharge
- (19) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (46) Siphon Insight - Chance for +ToHit
- (A) Flight Speed IO
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (9) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (17) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
- (37) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge
- (A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
- (11) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge
- (17) Red Fortune - Endurance/Recharge
- (23) Red Fortune - Defense
- (33) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (48) Red Fortune - Endurance
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (13) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (21) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
- (33) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge
- (33) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (43) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Healing IO
- (15) Healing IO
- (23) Harmonized Healing - Heal/Endurance
- (34) Harmonized Healing - Heal
- (A) Flight Speed IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (19) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (21) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
- (25) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
- (25) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
- (27) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
- (34) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (34) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
- (A) Sovereign Right - Accuracy/Damage
- (27) Sovereign Right - Accuracy
- (29) Sovereign Right - Damage/Endurance
- (31) Sovereign Right - Accuracy/Endurance
- (36) Sovereign Right - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (37) Sovereign Right - Resistance Bonus
- (A) Pacing of the Turtle - Chance of -Recharge
- (29) Pacing of the Turtle - Accuracy/Slow
- (37) Pacing of the Turtle - Range/Slow
- (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge
- (31) Performance Shifter - EndMod
- (39) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy
- (39) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold
- (36) Lockdown - Accuracy/Hold
- (40) Lockdown - Accuracy/Recharge
- (40) Lockdown - Recharge/Hold
- (40) Lockdown - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Expedient Reinforcement - Resist Bonus Aura for Pets
- (42) Expedient Reinforcement - Endurance/Damage/Recharge
- (42) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (42) Expedient Reinforcement - Damage/Endurance
- (43) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage
- (46) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Impervium Armor - Resistance
- (45) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (45) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (45) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (48) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance
- (A) Trap of the Hunter - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (48) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (50) Energy Manipulator - Chance to Stun
- (A) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold
- (50) Lockdown - Accuracy/Recharge
- (50) Energy Manipulator - Chance to Stun
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Celerity - +Stealth
- (A) Empty
Cheers
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
Wow. Well if I may be bold, I think I should say you are really selling short a lot of your powers using them as set mules, while heavily slotting other powers that are really nothing more than just set mules. Not only that but I'm not even seeing a specific set bonus you are aiming for.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I've done a lot of reading but I've also worked on a build for my toon in Mids. I actually really dislike the Fighting pool, and I've had very good results with Stealth backed up with a Stealth IO for far few powers costs so I'd be glad of feedback on this.
I've included the Hami-Os cuz... well I already have them, but if somene can make a better suggestion. I would just like to add I'd like to be able to use this toon to duo ITF - I've come close on a number of occasions but always fail at the last hurdle. |
To touch on a few specific powers:
Call Thugs: why an IO that increases KB? The Kinetic Crash proc does not give the +rech to the MM iirc (though I may be wrong). Think about placing an Explosive Strike proc in there instead if you can spare the slot.
Alkaloid: If you're using this power then I would recommend slotting for end red.
Assault/Tactics: These really don't need 2 slots for end red. If you are burning end too fast, you are much better off placing them in the click powers which are the main culprit (read: Alkaloid, pet summoning, upgrades, etc.) Also I don't know why you would take Tactics and not slot it for tohit, especially since the tohit recipes give out good set bonuses.
Call Enforcer: Okay... I really don't understand the reasoning behind this. If you want the set bonus you could have placed it in tactics, if you wanted more tohit for your thugs then placing 2 tohit IOs could have done the job. Why cut out the Enforcer's damage output/maneuvers?
A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
Quick build I threw together:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Poison
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg(A), EdctM'r-Dmg/EndRdx(3), EdctM'r-Acc/EndRdx(3), EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), EdctM'r-PetDef(5), HO:Nucle(46)
Level 1: Alkaloid -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(37), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Dct'dW-Heal(40)
Level 2: Envenom -- AnWeak-DefDeb(A), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(36), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(36), AnWeak-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(36), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(37)
Level 4: Weaken -- SipInsght-ToHitDeb(A), SipInsght-Acc/ToHitDeb(7), SipInsght-Acc/Rchg(11), SipInsght-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SipInsght-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(7)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Neurotoxic Breath -- TmpRdns-Acc/Slow(A), TmpRdns-Dmg/Slow(40), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx(40), TmpRdns-Rng/Slow(43), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(43)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg(A), EdctM'r-Dmg/EndRdx(13), EdctM'r-Acc/EndRdx(13), EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), HO:Nucle(17), Achilles-ResDeb%(46)
Level 14: Super Speed -- QckFt-EndRdx(A), QckFt-RunSpd(15)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Gang War -- ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(A), C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(19), SvgnRt-PetResDam(19), Acc-I(21), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 20: Health -- Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(A), Mrcl-Heal(27), Mrcl-Rcvry+(27), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(29)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(25), P'Shift-End%(25)
Level 24: Antidote -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- ExStrk-Dam%(A), EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg(29), EdctM'r-Dmg/EndRdx(31), EdctM'r-Acc/EndRdx(31), EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), HO:Nucle(50)
Level 28: Paralytic Poison -- G'Wdw-Acc/Rchg(A), G'Wdw-EndRdx/Hold(33), G'Wdw-Acc/EndRdx(33), G'Wdw-Hold/Rng(34), G'Wdw-Acc/Hold/Rchg(34), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- Krma-Def/EndRdx(A)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(33)
Level 35: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 38: Noxious Gas -- EndRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 41: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(42), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(42), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(42), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(43)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(45), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(45), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RedFtn-Def(46)
Level 47: Web Envelope -- TotHntr-Acc/Rchg(A), TotHntr-EndRdx/Immob(48), TotHntr-Acc/EndRdx(48), TotHntr-Immob/Acc(48), TotHntr-Acc/Immob/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 7.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 10% Defense
- 3.75% Defense(Smashing)
- 3.75% Defense(Lethal)
- 1.88% Defense(Melee)
- 3.15% Max End
- 29% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 1.5% Enhancement(RunSpeed)
- 1.5% Enhancement(FlySpeed)
- 1.5% Enhancement(JumpHeight)
- 1.5% Enhancement(JumpSpeed)
- 2.5% Enhancement(Held)
- 4% Enhancement(Heal)
- 5% Enhancement(Immobilize)
- 13.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 14% FlySpeed
- 111.4 HP (13.9%) HitPoints
- 26% JumpHeight
- 26% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Held) 4.95%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 3.3%
- MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
- 9% (0.15 End/sec) Recovery
- 10% (0.34 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 20% Resistance(Smashing)
- 27.5% Resistance(Lethal)
- 22.5% Resistance(Fire)
- 22.5% Resistance(Cold)
- 20% Resistance(Energy)
- 20% Resistance(Negative)
- 20% Resistance(Toxic)
- 20% Resistance(Psionic)
- 19% RunSpeed
- 2% XPDebtProtection
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1401;691;1382;HEX;| |78DAA594C96ED3501486AF33D4199C99A6699ACE73434DB36392908022952650142| |601A28A5A3771499C286E25BAE3015881D402123BA0051E00042B8410C382E91110| |83D8B002B6E10CB74D114BACE4FFE2E373EF39E7B79DDCE5C39A10570E08257CA85| |CB0EDD95CC15E32EA15D39A77E70A45734EA84288B6667436BF5CA9542DFD6469B9| |68C7B7C50F2E2F2CE83355D3AE5A9129AB64D40D6B49DFFCE19BA956CB7ABE6618F| |31AFD3C622E59866DF349D628D44CAB18DA3C9937EA76C9ACA5266BE69CBEAD44AE| |3067C8065712D0D6287C9FBB853C1A6EF119302C1C5F185F09AE6F8CEF84F1FD009| |753145D5BCB5C625A11222306B28C1C61E81861F838A104E98A4C57DE3A30D4FF8E| |F19EF18130F0916042BA53A63B5527865A3C049F97E12384FD841730038FD150DCB| |D82D2197DE0BECA571C6A9A429EBFB00895BCB292779D5BDE60DC278C3D603C24BC| |84327EE9969FDDD2D82D8DDD0AB25B6169D3F833982726FAA187806C30E0A611832| |E420B5C0991330D111AA1965E418D88AC11F94959D14F804E11FD45093B920C9E20| |CE5061A3186FE48C4D2AD844728A7194903A4D137820AF55E6B55EA3DDE3D709895| |5C61AA10CC6B47117A22DA160F9D7D058BB6CAC7D85064BB1075DEC41177BD0C51E| |64A40715D8A9432EEB2851133D266391D07B895166C8B1542CC9F53B7F0B3C7903F| |5BBA58BDD7C7F7B185148EE932EF671A80A5507E59D1FE4D0507A3B62B06684D7B8| |46EED0CCA37719F718EB84B10DC26378D2D2323DEDA34E77FA191A2340180F121E4| |1BA2E9F2B7D9542BBD61837183709995B841FF0273221479BE0FE328C54F345830F| |1C22FB4F64A6F976098522B966CE7F1D4FB4CD7DBC277CA0799453286750CEA29C4| |3398F7201E522CA2C4AE3E9D6EAD06E6C680FCA5E947D28573149C5D7C98FA2A104| |5082282194304A0C258E9244B98DD2F803412001CA| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
Thanks for the feedback.|
Originally Posted by Tangler
Wow. Well if I may be bold, I think I should say you are really selling short a lot of your powers using them as set mules, while heavily slotting other powers that are really nothing more than just set mules. Not only that but I'm not even seeing a specific set bonus you are aiming for.
To touch on a few specific powers: Call Thugs: why an IO that increases KB? The Kinetic Crash proc does not give the +rech to the MM iirc (though I may be wrong). Think about placing an Explosive Strike proc in there instead if you can spare the slot. Alkaloid: If you're using this power then I would recommend slotting for end red. Assault/Tactics: These really don't need 2 slots for end red. If you are burning end too fast, you are much better off placing them in the click powers which are the main culprit (read: Alkaloid, pet summoning, upgrades, etc.) Also I don't know why you would take Tactics and not slot it for tohit, especially since the tohit recipes give out good set bonuses. Call Enforcer: Okay... I really don't understand the reasoning behind this. If you want the set bonus you could have placed it in tactics, if you wanted more tohit for your thugs then placing 2 tohit IOs could have done the job. Why cut out the Enforcer's damage output/maneuvers? |
The logic behind my choices has been that many of the powers I six slot give a good bonuses to defence on the 6th slot. I figured that since my damage is +77.5% with the Enforcers in action (and 13.5% without) that it was a reasonably successful way to slot. Even if BU doesn't fire there the slots give it a 2.5% damage buff anyhow, but like I said, I'm open to suggestions.
Mids does indicate that Force Feedback proc gives an overall recharge if I'm reading it correctly, though I'm no expert and may be wrong there.
I take your point re; Alkaloid and Tactics. I've adjusted Alkaloid to 3 Miracles to give more end redux and it also gives a nice 2.5% end recovery too. I can make minor adjusts and get four Adjusted Targetings in there which give me an additional boost.
I'm the first to admit I struggle with build guides generally, and Mids especially but the numbers I'm getting at the end of it seem to be ok.
Here's the breakdown:
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1410;715;1430;HEX;| |78DAA593C94F535114C6EFEBC0A303748202854281324381B8714A484450139AD41| |4A3512321F0686BDA3EC26B8DECDCEB4A135D18E77961625C194537C638FC27AE64| |74DAE0B9DFB950F6BEB4DFEFF5F43BC3BDF7BDE4E5A35E21AE8C09CD3F9E9FB5AC9| |9E4AC5532960AB9E2BC7BDA98CB16CDBC9959D6D3A963B14BB17DBA10A2A1E29849| |970B05B39898CE963356784FFC4879612191327396590C9C28668D25A3584AECDC7| |853A6994F4CE64A45C3B23CFC239FCB644B6EDCA7170D63DE87DB296376DE58B2B2| |B9C5C8C4626E2EB1A743B2AC265D6EA499FAE8FBD129D4B5ED1087090EBBB029567| |F27F6087F94302A5A976D428444C6B19B6013C73569B04D028E09204B068D0D4E4D| |B30B11150E1BE0B503B50EA0DF090C550139CAB26B9C65D7EDB2615535C30DB85D4| |0D0030C7901276DAD93B384B31363BA28A473C8AEFB3519AAAE03FC41201E003AC8| |E7E23135D70052DD8C00FDE351A37838D5CB85EAB8428C2BC4EA81FE10A053568DE| |A5B1347A15A46701CFB121E033CE4F3715FE1E39183140A70AA166847A89311A27F| |426A94D0031B66B80F84EF01B14740FB5D60F021F089CEB45EB5A8E7429F29D4A00| |A35BC80ABF139E3191079CA851E339E005F29AB491D65D32A0A45368196357E26D6| |79DA0D20BE055CA4A36C564F48F36B6C4ECB4BDEFA577C1EB4AAA8DAAAE80D746AB| |D0E74DF64DC02BE51FB36B58E365E47816A77A8893AFEC2D5B905F4FC64FC62FC01| |867F03266575A9B3EEE243EE667CA116BDAA5EEF26CC7D1B8C75C61AD0BF0A0CFD0| |056E8E11B500B18E8C5B10EC6193DC0701FF09E7C09B51389DB58FBF01BF41DBD8A| |97E90319469461849733CAEB508696CADB461FBAC4D4DE880BDE54E58D131A4CC98| |AE9BFAEB7DE9D3AAE936ED2B49453524E4B3923E5AC947352CE4BB9206546CAF6BB| |DD6CDF7E39D0012907A51C92724D9A740F89478A574A8D945A293E297E292129612| |9112977A46CFF038178FF7A| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
Mids is actually wrong about this. Basically it thinks that the proc is always in effect, and on you. But it isn't. Even if you had it slotted in a personal attack, like Kick, it would still only have an effect if the proc landed (20% chance I think), and then only for five seconds afterward.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Mids does indicate that Force Feedback proc gives an overall recharge if I'm reading it correctly, though I'm no expert and may be wrong there.
|
But if you have it in a pet power, the proc will affect not you, but the PETS summoned by the power. Since all pets are immune to recharge buffs and debuffs, the proc will do nothing. Absolutely nothing whatsoever.
Mids is wonky in the way it handles procs like this. Another example is the Gaussian's Chance for Buildup proc. Mids seems to think that it's always in effect, too, even though it isn't, and as a result Mids will show you incredibly high damage numbers which aren't remotely accurate.
You should get rid of that Force Feedback proc in there. It's doing nothing at all.
To speak further to your original post, it should be noted that Poison Pill's Thugs/Poison guide was written back before we had the ability to scale spawn sizes up to x4 or x8 or whatever. At that time, the highest difficulty setting was essentially +2x1. Poison is very good at heavily debuffing one or two targets at a time; and soloing effectively at +2x1 seemed pretty good back in the day.
Nowadays we have a lot more options to tune the difficulty to our specific desires, and something like Thugs/Dark, which has better AoE debuffing, healing and control, holds up better against spawn sizes which would overrun a Thugs/Poison. (Personally, I hold that Thugs/Dark was *always* better than Thugs/Poison for PvE, but that's just an opinion of mine I don't expect anyone else to share.)
My advice, though, to any /Poison mastermind is, slot those debuffs for lots of accuracy and try fighting fewer, higher-level enemies, rather than trying to fight lots and lots of lower-level enemies.
Cool ok in my revision it's out then. Thanks for the clarification.
As an aside I've taken a note of Poison Pill's post and it's helped a lot on my current SO build. I'm not after "lots" of enemies, I'm after taking down those I meet quickly and efficiently
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
Are you sure about this? You can't debuff another MM's Pet's recharge? I'm tempted to go in and take a look now. That totally re-alters all of my strategies. |
Originally Posted by Chaos_String
But if you have it in a pet power, the proc will affect not you, but the PETS summoned by the power. Since all pets are immune to recharge buffs and debuffs, the proc will do nothing. Absolutely nothing whatsoever. ...You should get rid of that Force Feedback proc in there. It's doing nothing at all. |
Quote:
| Mids is wonky in the way it handles procs like this. Another example is the Gaussian's Chance for Buildup proc. Mids seems to think that it's always in effect, too, even though it isn't, and as a result Mids will show you incredibly high damage numbers which aren't remotely accurate. |
Each Enforcer initially adds about 6.50 % defense, for a total of 13%, but that number goes up as you increase in level, and adding enhancements increases it further. Your pets can very quickly get to have a defense that many brutes would be jealous of. (And the auras stack if there are two Thugs MM's on your team, so you can surpass the 45% defense mark if you team right)
In some ways it would be accurate to argue that Thugs pets have the best defense of any pet set in the game, better than Ninjas even, as long as you keep them clustered close to each other.
I have a Merc/Poison and again like other shave stated the safest way to dill with baddies if you are /poison is Tanking.
this toon has been sitting collecting dust for 2 years. I've used SOOO many respecs oh him it's just silly. I just received another vetspec so I said why not let me make him a mm tank...Well by golly it worked. I took two of the tanking powers and I keep them on auto...well kinda. While they are taking hits at me I am using my /poison secondary debuffing the poo out of them...and I don't even have Noxious Gas!
People say that a Merc MM shouldn't take NS but I beg to differ. I cannot even count how many times the baddies run up to the commando and get in his Face.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Cool ok in my revision it's out then. Thanks for the clarification.
As an aside I've taken a note of Poison Pill's post and it's helped a lot on my current SO build. I'm not after "lots" of enemies, I'm after taking down those I meet quickly and efficiently |
Indeed Shocker my diff is set at +3/+0.
Thugs Poison is semi fail as your Thugs can't stack holds with you.
Constructive feedback: Reroll Nin or Necro to maximize use of /Poison.
I've got a thugs/poison MM that's at 50 now and I'm frankly struggling with him. I struggled most of the way to 50 if I'm honest and I only stuck wtih it through sheer bloody-mindedness. My experience seems to be at odds with the general nature of threads in here, where many rave about the greatness of that combo.
I've not omitted anything from my build that I'm aware of, and granted I've not got millions of of inf to spend on purpling him up but frankly I'm just not getting it. He seems to be incredibly squishy, heavy on endurance and not very hard hitting. In short, the best way to describe him is "disappointing."
I am not a great player of MMs. This is my first of any significance and I'm struggling with him. I must admit he's not my main so maybe doesn't get the play and input they need, but that's kind of a vicious circle, because he's not that good he doesn't get played that much.
I've tried a number of builds, some recommended, some not - mostly SO'd out with a view to IO sets but I'm still not finding anything that even feels pretty good, which is frustrating.
I don't think it's "me" given that whilst I appreciate MMs require a knack to play I've not had problems to this extent with other ATs, and I've read a fair bit on the subject. Just not getting very far.
any help, advice, input etc welcome. I'd be very glad to know what some of the more experienced MM players think.
Cheers
Thelonious Monk