"Perform better" is a bit vague to give a simple answer.
Most Kat/Dark should kill faster than Kat/Invul, simply because Dark has a damage aura, but if you build a Kat/Dark to be sturdier than Invul it'd involve spamming DA which would lower your damage. I'm not convinced on S/L def on a Kat/Dark, going for ranged/AOE and letting DA take care of melee seems a better approach to me.
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What Nihilii said.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
"Perform better" is a bit vague to give a simple answer.
Most Kat/Dark should kill faster than Kat/Invul, simply because Dark has a damage aura, but if you build a Kat/Dark to be sturdier than Invul it'd involve spamming DA which would lower your damage. I'm not convinced on S/L def on a Kat/Dark, going for ranged/AOE and letting DA take care of melee seems a better approach to me. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Thanks Nihilli and Werver, that answer was actually exactly what I was looking for. I wanted the best mix of dmg and survivability, and it looks like Kat/Invuln is more of what I'm looking for. I do have a mid 30 Claw/Dark if I choose to take a /Dark to 50 so there's always that. Thanks Again
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
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Hehe.. Time for a shameless commercial for my Kat/Inv guide! :P
Anyways, Kat/Inv is a really strong combo when built right. As said, it does not have the offense of a Kat/Dark, but it's less susceptible to Def Debuffs and IMO it is better off when looking purely at survival. Of course, there are situations where DA will triumph (Psi Damage...), but overall I think Inv is a sturdier set.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Thanks Dsorrow, I actually read your guide over when I was originally trying to decide what at all to make next. I was planning the Kat/Invuln (and had one at lvl 6) but wasn't sure where the kat/dark would compare.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
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No way.
DR is way better then DP.
If defense is capped what would u rather have to fall back on, dp with its long recharge or dr with its short recharge.
Dark armor with tough will have the same resists values.
Again defense is capped.
Maybe kat/inv for gettin caught by 1 difficult spawn/boss by surprise but against difficult, continous mobs/spawns kat/da all the way.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Unless I were putting together a fully soft-capped Dark Armor (which I am), I'd rather have Dull Pain and Aid Self to fall back on. Dull Pain is a big boost, not just a heal, and the smashing/lethal defense in Invulnerability is significantly better than in Dark Armor. Combine with Aid Self, and you're extremely solid, though you definitely have that psionic hole which Dark Armor plugs nicely. If you don't want the tricorder, though, yeah, perhaps back to Dark Armor.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Not to mention DP doesnt have a big end cost and it gives you a big regen boost
DR's end consumption is a nonfactor anymore. If anything I look at it as an end replenisher. Trickin out DR now is all about gettin its recharge to 12ish seconds.
Remember Werner that defense is capped already with either IO's or DA. So the degree of how that is accomplished cant be factored either..
I hadnt thought of /invuln with aid self though.
Prob a wash with that then.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Yeah, the Theft of Essence proc sure makes a huge difference, doesn't it? I'd READ people saying that Dark Regeneration was now an endurance replenishing tool, but had a hard time believing it. Then I slotted one, and watched my blue bar go up more often than down. Good LORD what a difference!
Anyway, only melee and lethal defense can be soft-capped with Divine Avalanche. I want to be soft-capped to all positions or types (well, SLFCEN, anyway). That's why I called what I was after "fully soft-capped". There's a huge difference, even with how common melee and lethal are. It varies by the enemy group, of course. Invulnerability isn't likely to be fully soft-capped either without some IO work, but I think you can soft-cap a Katana/Invuln to all but psionic and toxic more easily than you can soft cap a Dark Armor to all positions.
But yeah, calling it a wash after adding Aid Self is probably reasonable. Invuln won't be as vulnerable to spikes of damage, and is significantly better against smashing/lethal, but it also has some weaknesses, particularly to psionic damage. Also, if you're needing to spam Aid Self to survive, you're losing a lot more damage than the Dark Armor spamming Dark Regeneration.
I went Katana/Dark, and I'm happy with my choice, but Invuln is certainly good as well (I have a L50 Broad Sword/Invuln).
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Time spent using DA is time not spent using higher damaging attacks. Doing less damage translates to having to live longer, hence needing more mitigation to survive the same encounters than a build with comparable numbers without DA would.| Remember Werner that defense is capped already with either IO's or DA. So the degree of how that is accomplished cant be factored either.. |
Using DA also means you won't have that defense for the very first alpha strike, that you might lose it if the time to travel from mob to mob is too long (and indeed it's usually the rule and not the exception for me, I still have one DA up but not two, and end up below the melee softcap for the next alpha strike). Being accuracy based, high defense foes can be more than a simple annoyance too.
You can't just consider effects that are impossible to be always on to be the same thing as effects that are always on. You can argue it's up often enough for your needs, you can argue the way you play the difference is irrelevant, but ultimately it still makes a difference when compared to the same effect from a source that is truly always on.
I dont know why I thought that both builds would be softcapped.
Maybe I was hallucinating. I thought someone said if both builds were softcapped which is more survivable? After rereading the thread I see i sound kinda like an ***.
And I agree that time spent spammin DA is less time killing.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I don't really get what you mean here. My Kat/Inv stays alive in pretty much any situation. |
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Maybe kat/inv for gettin caught by 1 difficult spawn/boss by surprise but against difficult, continous mobs/spawns kat/da all the way. |
More than one AV against him and no support available? Check.
Boss only spawns? Check.
Uh.. easier encounters? Check.
The only place where I don't expect top tier performance without popping insps or relying on support is against psi-heavy foes, or stuff with extreme debuffs (though IME extreme debuffs as an Achilles' heel apply to all ATs/powersets).
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Or when defense fails and your relying on resists+dull pain.
The long recharge time on DP would make me think about jumpin into another spawn without it being recharged. Whereass DR will be back up every 20 secs or so.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Don't know about you, but I don't need DP that often. Last ITF I did I didn't use it even once. It has saved my life often, but after being used you're at capped HP and you have good regen because of that.|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Or when defense fails and your relying on resists+dull pain.
The long recharge time on DP would make me think about jumpin into another spawn without it being recharged. Whereass DR will be back up every 20 secs or so. |
Also with the 50% DDR Invuln has nowadays it isn't all that frequent for it's Defense to fail. Besides, -Def mostly comes with Lethal attacks and with Divine Avalanche + Invincibility + Tough Hide + Weave + Set Bonuses you should be way over the soft cap for that.
EDIT: As an afterthought; I've soloed 3 AVs simultaneously on my Kat/Inv. No temps or insps were used in that process. The fight took me some 45mins I believe and the AVs never took me down. So much for relying on the heal from DP
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
thats just cuz your so awesome.
How silly of me to think anything but kat/inv is the greatest set of all time!!!
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Bleh. You seem to intentionally miss my point. Kat/Inv is one of the better rounded sets there are with good ST damage, mediocre AoE and sturdy self-defense. It IS probably the superior combination when fighting enemies that deal exclusively, or very close to exclusively, S/L damage.|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
thats just cuz your so awesome.
How silly of me to think anything but kat/inv is the greatest set of all time!!! |
Invuln was also recently buffed so that it received good amounts of DDR (50%) as well as slight buffs in Damage Resistance and some random effect Resistance. This means it is not as susceptible to cascading defense debuff failures as it used to be and unlike DA is now. Even though you can softcap a Kat/DA relatively effortlessly, it won't sustain a cascading def debuff failure as well as an Invuln who on top of DDR also has higher Resistance against S/L damage which is the most frequent damage type associated with def debuffs.
I'm not trying to belittle Kat/DA or even idolize Kat/Inv. Both of the sets have their weaknesses and also their strengths, and I believe when comparing these two sets against each other Kat/DA is the more offensive one while Kat/Inv is the defensively superior set. A good player will be able to leverage both of the set combination very effectively and should not be stopped by the "too long recharge" of Dull Pain. It could be said /DA is "way too heavy on end" which is not true in all cases. IF the player knows what he's doing he shouldn't be troubled by the "long recharge of DP" or the "end heaviness of DA".
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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Yeah, I did the math on it (yay Stats!) and there's an 89.26% chance of getting at least 1 proc with Theft of Essence in a fully saturated DR (Target cap on it is 10, right? If I'm mistaken, and it's 16, a saturated DR has a 97.19% chance of going off once when fully saturated.) Assuming most people have it slotted down to 16 end per cast, you only need 2 procs for a net gain of end.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, the Theft of Essence proc sure makes a huge difference, doesn't it? I'd READ people saying that Dark Regeneration was now an endurance replenishing tool, but had a hard time believing it. Then I slotted one, and watched my blue bar go up more often than down. Good LORD what a difference!
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Since ToE procs independently (no cool-down timer, etc.), it's a simple binomial probability, so the probability of gaining end back (2+ successes) is simply 1-P(0 or 1 successes), with p = .2 (20% chance to regain the 10 end).
so it's 1 - ( (10 C 0) * .2^0 * .8^10 + (10 C 1) * .2^1 * .8^9 ) or 62.42% chance of a net gain of endurance, based on 10 targets. Obviously, with fewer targets the chances decrease, but 7 targets gets you a 49.67% chance of a net endurance gain, and 8 targets gets you to 56.38% chance of net gain. It really is nice.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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D, Nothing was missed intentionally.
Lets pretend.
kat/inv jumps into a spawn of purples. Invinc. will need mobs around to fuel its defense. DA will need to hit first to give any defense. For that first volley you'll prob take damage, you might even need to hit dull pain. What will you do when you jump into that next spawn and again you take damage?
And sure, I can see a player goin a whole tf without using DP. I know its possible, I play /invuln as well and rarely need it also.
I also play /dark armor.
Adding katana to either set will greatly increase survivability but thats cuz of the OPness of DA.
If layered mitigation is the way to increase survivability, addin more defense to /invuln is not the way to go. It has resist/def already. If i wanted to increase /invulns survivability id add healing to it from dm/
Likewise upping /dark armors survivability which is healing/resist, id add defense from katana.
I dont think either set combo sux.
I just think kat/da is more survivable against everyday run-of-the mill content. And only cuz DR can heal 1-100% very often.
I think getting surprised against 2 AV's at once in a mission (your example) is where kat/inv would shine, with the greater resists/defense and increase of health from DP. But that greater survivabiliity comes less often.
That is all.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I can see where you're coming from. My Kat/Inv is just very heavily IOd which might affect my view of the set. I'm at 26% Def to all before any targets enter Invincibility.
A minor quirk, Defense is actually just the thing you should add on Invuln. The way defense works, every percent gives you more protection than the previous until you hit 45% which isn't all that hard to achieve. And at 45% you're only taking 5% of the incoming damage which will further be reduced by Resistance.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
True, I would add additional defense to /invuln, I just wouldnt use my primary to do it.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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the trick here is to have that 1st hit of DA/Parry cap your melee. Then jumping from 1 mob to the next shouldn't be an issue.
But then again it all comes down to the person behind the wheel really. I can't comment on DA as I have no experience on the set outside of 25 levels maybe, but DP on my BS/Inv is rarely used and I'm even thinking of dropping it for somehting usefull like Aid Others... But he is rather built for HP (close to 2K) and regen (380%).
Think ninjutsu will ever br prolif'd to scrappers?
Not without a major rework and then it prob wont be ninjutsu.
I can soak alphas all day long on /dark armor. Without needing defense.
Have 1 AV show up let alone 2 and imma be cryin on /da.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Scrapper Forum I come to you to find out which you think would be an all around "better" scrapper Kat/Dark or Kat/Invuln? My goal with either would to get moderately to capped S/L Def and moderate to high rech, however I am unsure of which to go with. I know the Invuln would be easier to cap, but would (with the right investment) the Dark perform better? Opinions, suggestions and any other words of encouragement/discouragement are greatly appreciated.
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