Min-maxing Combat Jumping on a resistance-based Spines/Dark
By
Dark Ether,
Posted on: 2009-11-13 09:20 in Scrappers
FWIW, my Spines/Dark build at 50 has a LotG +rech in CJ. This is an S/L def cap (46% actually) build w/45% global rech (pre-Hasten) and only 4 pts of KB protection in the form of a BotZ in SJ.
My current (lvl 28-ish) build has a Karma -KB in there, but I'll be respeccing out of that, obviously. Oh, and I don't believe there's any difference bet. 8pts & 12 pts of KB protection, which is to say no mobs do more than 8, but less than 12 pts of KB. Not 100% on that last though.
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12 points of knock back protection is over kill for 99% of the game. The only time you'll need that is when you're fighting Fake Nemesis.
If you're going to be going for a resistance based build I'd suggest maximizing your slows from spines and increasing your recharge by a significant margin in order to increase the up time of Dark Regeneration.
Energy Torrent is also a good opener for a resistance based build as it knocks down your enemies and not back so they won't be able to attack you when they're down.
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Yeah, I'm planning the ancillary to be Conserve Power/Physical Perfection/Energy Torrent, and six-slotting E-torrent.
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How many point of knockback do pylons do? I can't remember a number, but I thought I'd heard something that was more than 8 and less than 12. I can't seem to find anything on the topic now, though. I suppose I could just copy over to test and figure it out for myself, but I'm lazy.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Oh, and I don't believe there's any difference bet. 8pts & 12 pts of KB protection, which is to say no mobs do more than 8, but less than 12 pts of KB. Not 100% on that last though.
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(Edit: OK, I went and tested. 4 points of knockback protection wasn't enough, but 8 points was.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
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Completely untrue...
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Originally Posted by Santorican
12 points of knock back protection is over kill for 99% of the game. The only time you'll need that is when you're fighting Fake Nemesis.
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How long did you test ? I just ask because I remember pylons have a chance for extra KB on top of their 100% KB, but I don't remember which total mag it ends up with. I remember on my Kat/Fire with either 1 or 2 KB IOs I was getting knocked back occasionally, while with one more KB IOs (ending up with either 2 or 3, again I can't remember) it was fine 100% of the time.
| OK, I went and tested. 4 points of knockback protection wasn't enough, but 8 points was. |
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Ah, well, not very long. I think about five hits each at 12 and 8, then two at 4? So if there's an extra chance for knockback that would occasionally knock back at 8, I could easily have missed it.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
How long did you test ? I just ask because I remember pylons have a chance for extra KB on top of their 100% KB, but I don't remember which total mag it ends up with. I remember on my Kat/Fire with either 1 or 2 KB IOs I was getting knocked back occasionally, while with one more KB IOs (ending up with either 2 or 3, again I can't remember) it was fine 100% of the time.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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My spines/dark has 8 points of knock back protection and in my 2 years of playing him I have yet to encounter anything outside of Fake Nemesis/AVs/Pylons that knock me back. So yes 12 points of knock back is over kill for 99% of the game.
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
Completely untrue...
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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So with 8 points of knockback protection, you've been knocked back by pylons?
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Originally Posted by Santorican
My spines/dark has 8 points of knock back protection and in my 2 years of playing him I have yet to encounter anything outside of Fake Nemesis/AVs/Pylons that knock me back. So yes 12 points of knock back is over kill for 99% of the game.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I believe so, it's been a while since I passed a pylon in my spines/dark so I'll have to go test it.
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Originally Posted by Werner
So with 8 points of knockback protection, you've been knocked back by pylons?
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
Completely untrue...
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Then what's the answer?
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Cabal witches, Tuantha trees, siege/nightstar's minions, werewolf boulders... There is a number of things I could list that will easily breach a mag 8 knockback protection when you fight multiple of them at once as I've seen it happen. |
Originally Posted by Santorican
My spines/dark has 8 points of knock back protection and in my 2 years of playing him I have yet to encounter anything outside of Fake Nemesis/AVs/Pylons that knock me back. So yes 12 points of knock back is over kill for 99% of the game.
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But if you're just playing on low difficulty settings you wont run into this. You also wont run into this if you skip alot of content.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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This is also my take on the issue of KB slotting. 2 KB protection IOs give 8pts. Acerobatics give 9pts. Every 2ndary with KB protection gives 10pts. Those sets never get knocked back. Acerobatics still get knocked back. If I'm gonna fill a hole. I'm gonna fill it. Not give it some patch job. I agree that 12pts is over kill for PVE but 8pts still leaves enough stuff out there to still be annoying. Since is either 8, 9, or 12. I say always go for the 12.
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
Cabal witches, Tuantha trees, siege/nightstar's minions, werewolf boulders... There is a number of things I could list that will easily breach a mag 8 knockback protection when you fight multiple of them at once as I've seen it happen.
But if you're just playing on low difficulty settings you wont run into this. You also wont run into this if you skip alot of content. |
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if you take CJ, Cloak of Darkness and the steadfast unique you would wind up with about 16% defense to all, which when not faced with defense debuffs, will be noticeable. You'll maybe get missed just long enough to survive dark regen's animation time for example
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The reason sets with 10 pts KB protection in their mez protection don't get knocked back is not due to the extra 1 point of -KB, but because their mez protection powers also grant 10,000% resistance to KB, which reduces incoming KB to basically nothing. I've seen Recluse knock around an /Elec tank with 24 pts -KB while all the towers were up, but he couldn't touch my Invuln who only has 10 pts -KB.
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Originally Posted by Rieze
2 KB protection IOs give 8pts. Acerobatics give 9pts. Every 2ndary with KB protection gives 10pts. Those sets never get knocked back. Acerobatics still get knocked back.
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Admittedly this is a minor point to ponder, but I am wondering if my conclusion for what to put in the single default slot of Combat Jumping is sound.
CJ can take quite a few useful IOs. I don't have Mids and the rest of the build is too much detail for this discussion, I think, but here are the relevant points:
Spines/Dark Scrapper
Eventually he will have +60% global accuracy (assuming my lone purple set gets filled in), and generally he will have from 38% to 58% base accuracy in his attacks. I could add the Kismet +to-hit unique to CJ, but it seems likely to be overkill. As a Spines/Dark, I do not anticipate taking on +4 boss challenges very often.
I am not going for +defense set bonuses (lots of my other characters did, so I am trying to avoid just doing that with every character). So I don't need to slot up CJ for defense. A possibility is to shift one -knb from a Steadfast in the resistance toggles to a Karma in CJ, and drop the +3% global defense Steadfast into the resistance toggle its place. That gets me 3% global defense (plus CJ) only, not very much.
I already have 2 knockback resistance IOs slotted. I could put a third one into CJ, but the prospect of occasionally getting thrown back doesn't terrify me.
My global recharge on this build will be 22.5 (not counting Hasten, which will itself only be 2-slotted with level 50 IOs for 84.4% rchg). If I slot a LOTG +rchg into CJ, it will be 30%. Since I am relying on Dark Regeneration heavily in this more traditional no-defense build, I think this is the way I should go. Yes, I know we are talking a small increment in recharge at this point. Also, 30% recharge is a nice round number. :P
Is my thinking generally sound on this? Thoughts and opinions? Suggestions I haven't thought of?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog