dm/wp lil advice...


Deus_Otiosus

 

Posted

So I whipped up a build. It has basic SO's in it, but what I want to know if it looks like a good set up for IO sets.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Templar-Striker: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- Acc(A), Acc(5), Dmg(15), Dmg(36), Dmg(37), EndRdx(37)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Heal(A), Heal(3), Heal(3), ResDam(7), ResDam(7), ResDam(13)
Level 2: Smite -- Acc(A), Acc(5), Dmg(15), Dmg(37), Dmg(39), EndRdx(39)
Level 4: Mind Over Body -- ResDam(A), ResDam(31), ResDam(31), EndRdx(50)
Level 6: Touch of Fear -- Acc(A), Acc(40), Fear(40), Fear(40)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- Acc(A), Acc(9), Dmg(9), Dmg(11), Heal(11), Heal(13)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- DefBuff(A)
Level 12: Fast Healing -- Heal(A), Heal(25), Heal(31)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff(A)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Heal(A), Heal(17), Heal(17), ToHitDeb(46), ToHitDeb(46), ToHitDeb(50)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Acc(A), Acc(19), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(23), Dmg(23), Dmg(25)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Super Jump -- Jump(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- Acc(A)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Acc(A), Acc(27), Dmg(27), Dmg(33), RechRdx(34), RechRdx(34)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- Empty(A), Empty(29), Empty(29)
Level 30: Tough -- ResDam(A), ResDam(42), ResDam(42), EndRdx(42)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Acc(A), Acc(33), Dmg(33), Dmg(34), Dmg(36), RechRdx(36)
Level 35: Weave -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(43), DefBuff(43), EndRdx(43)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(39)
Level 41: Soul Tentacles -- Acc(A), Acc(46), Dmg(48), Immob(48)
Level 44: Darkest Night -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(45), ToHitDeb(45), ToHitDeb(45)
Level 47: Strength of Will -- ResDam(A), ResDam(48)
Level 49: Resurgence -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury


protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll

 

Posted

What's your goal with this build? PvE, PvP, farming, tanking, fighting multiple enemies, fighting one big enemie (AV), etc?
That will make a huge difference in what kind of sets you'll aim for.

For an IO build, it kinda have to be made especialy for it. Sometimes you'll sacrifice a bit on one power to get a better bonus from another.


"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireWyvern View Post
What's your goal with this build? PvE, PvP, farming, tanking, fighting multiple enemies, fighting one big enemie (AV), etc?
That will make a huge difference in what kind of sets you'll aim for.

For an IO build, it kinda have to be made especialy for it. Sometimes you'll sacrifice a bit on one power to get a better bonus from another.
As you can tell I am leaning more toward ST attacks. I am a PvE only player. I rarely ever PvP. PvP is fun, but I suck so bad at it that it gets frustrateing.

Takeing the epic I did take... I am looking for something tough as nails with staying power. Not a tank, but something that is durable enough to sustain it's self.

he is actually lvl 8 and with ToF and siphon life, the toon can be quite safe. I actually quite enjoy this toon.


protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll

 

Posted

From my experience with DM/WP id change a couple of things. Mind you I aimed for EB/AV soloing capacity and so far EB's are never a problem, i still need some io's for AV's.

-Id drop touch of Fear right on, feared enemies dont attack therefore they dont generate fury wich is THE fuel of any brute. If you want to hold on to it be my guest, its your game.

-I'd Pick Gloom from Soul Mastery wich is a phenomenal ST attack and include it in your normal attack chain.

-On any WP id recommand going the Swift/Hurdle - Health - Stamina way. 2 main reasons, Health gives Regen wich is basically what WP's about. Stamina give more recovery pretty much insuring you wont be running out of blue stuff any time soon.

-If you do take stamina id drop Dark Consumption wich will be rendered useless. If you took it for AoE id take Dark Obliteration from Soul Mastery instead. Lets keep in mind that Dark Melee is really not AoE oriented however.

-Shadow Punch wouldnt be my choice for a good damage dealing attack chain. Brawl would replace Shadow Punch easily and it FREE ! You can even put a proc in it for added fun, i like the chance for Knockdown of Kinetic Combat personnally.

-Two other nitpicks, you might need to take Soul Tentacles out to fit this all in. Mind over body is taken a tad too early, I always prefer to pick it at 24 since it doesnt offer regen but does offer good mitigation. Id pick fast healing at 4 instead.

If you wan't an exemple of build i can post one later when i'm not at work. But what you want to aim for is +Recharge +Regen +Health as for set bonuses.



Beware what lurks in the Shadows

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesTheShadow View Post
From my experience with DM/WP id change a couple of things. Mind you I aimed for EB/AV soloing capacity and so far EB's are never a problem, i still need some io's for AV's.

-Id drop touch of Fear right on, feared enemies dont attack therefore they dont generate fury wich is THE fuel of any brute. If you want to hold on to it be my guest, its your game.

-I'd Pick Gloom from Soul Mastery wich is a phenomenal ST attack and include it in your normal attack chain.

-On any WP id recommand going the Swift/Hurdle - Health - Stamina way. 2 main reasons, Health gives Regen wich is basically what WP's about. Stamina give more recovery pretty much insuring you wont be running out of blue stuff any time soon.

-If you do take stamina id drop Dark Consumption wich will be rendered useless. If you took it for AoE id take Dark Obliteration from Soul Mastery instead. Lets keep in mind that Dark Melee is really not AoE oriented however.

-Shadow Punch wouldnt be my choice for a good damage dealing attack chain. Brawl would replace Shadow Punch easily and it FREE ! You can even put a proc in it for added fun, i like the chance for Knockdown of Kinetic Combat personnally.

-Two other nitpicks, you might need to take Soul Tentacles out to fit this all in. Mind over body is taken a tad too early, I always prefer to pick it at 24 since it doesnt offer regen but does offer good mitigation. Id pick fast healing at 4 instead.

If you wan't an exemple of build i can post one later when i'm not at work. But what you want to aim for is +Recharge +Regen +Health as for set bonuses.
yeah I'd appreciate that. I have alot to learn on a brute build, it would help to see a decent build, to just see how a brute is designed to run


protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll

 

Posted

By no means is this the best build ever but its fairly cheap and it bears good regen and HP. Keep in mind i had to play around with it to get flying cause it fitted my concept better. Any questions/comments are welcome. Note that i didnt include any fancy sets or Purples but if funds are no issue this could really improve any AV soloer build.

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Beware what lurks in the Shadows

 

Posted

I can't comment on the /WP side of things, but I would recommend against a few things suggested about DM.

- If you are looking at taking on EB/AV, I would keep ToF. On bosses/EBs/AVs, the -ToHit is what really shines. not the fear. The fear itself is also good for some of the mobs you want to "control" right off the bat.

- Shadow Punch is worlds better than Brawl, period. The only thing Brawl has going for it now is that it is end free, which helps the lower levels. SP has the stackable -ToHit that all the ST DM attacks have, deals most of it's damage as negative energy, has the same activation time, recasts only 1 second longer (and DM attack chains are easy to build), just....no. Only use Brawl early on to build Fury, need it to fill an attack chain, or when you are tight on end.

- Dark Consumption is never "useless". If you do have stamina and quick recovery, it won't be as needed, but it's there when recovery isn't enough or you get debuffed/end drained.

- I don't see any mention of Shadow Maul, which is one of DM's big hitters. It's actually in the top 3 against only 1 target (SL and MG being the other 2), but takes off when you hit 2+ mobs. The animation is slow and the cone can be a pain to use, so it can be a personal preference, especially if you are going mostly for ST damage.

I can't comment on Soul Mastery, though all I hear is great things about Gloom. And Darkest Night is one of the best debuffs in the game.


 

Posted

Well, I will chime in here too

Personally on my DM/WP brute I have the following attacks:

Shadow Punch
Shadow Smite
Midnight Grasp
Air Superiority
Siphon Life
Soul Drain

I had Shadow Maul instead of Shadow Punch, and personally I felt bound by it, YES it's a high damage DOT, yes it /can/ hit a group of mobs.. But! It's got that damnedable animation time (you will swear a lot when you miss), and seldom gets its full damage potential off in good teams. Even solo I don't miss it, but you mileage may vary as they say

With a relatively inexpensive IO build I have non-stop single target attacks, slight damage mitigation thanks to AS knocking down, and a nice heal every 4 seconds (or so).

Prior to IO sets, I used just plain Invention Origin lvl 30 enhancers (pretty much the same as SO's) and never had any trouble soloing any contacts with the exception of the later missions in the Ghost Widow missions (basically the mission where you need to fight Ghostie herself).

I've had Touch of Fear in builds and feel like, while it IS useful, it also IS skippable. But the bigger question is what to remove from a build to take it? I personally feel that my other powers contribute more to my success than Touch of Fear would replace, although if I was not a flier and didn't have Air Superiority knocking dudes down all the time I may reconsider this stance.

I second the notion that you should both take, and slot the bejesus out of Gloom, it's very good and you will smile a lot.Dark Obliteration is best used when your fury is high for an AOE "surprise" but could be skipped in favor of Darkest Night, though when I had Darkest Night I always forgot to use it (so I guess that means it's skippable).

A simple layout of what I work with is as follows, ( I will use the SO/Standard IO set up since you're only lvl 8 right now)

1) Shadow Smite acc,acc,dmg,dmg,dmg
1) High Pain Tolerance res,res,heal,heal
2) Shadow Punch acc,acc,dmg,dmg,dmg
4) Fast Healing heal,heal,heal
6) Air Superiority acc,acc,dmg,dmg,dmg
8) Siphon Life acc,acc,dmg,dmg,heal,rech
10)Indomnitable Will endred,endred
12)Swift run
14) Fly fly
16) Rise to the Challenge endred,endred,heal,heal,heal
18) Health heal,heal,heal
20) Quick Recovery endmod,endmod,endmod
22) Stamina endmod,endmod,endmod
24) Mind Over Body endred,endred,res,res,res
26) Soul Drain acc,acc,dmg,dmg,rech,rech
28) Hightened Senses endred,endred,endred
30) Hasten rech,rech,rech
32) Midnight Grasp acc,acc,dmg,dmg,dmg,rech
35) Kick acc (not used in attack chain so I got kick for giggles)
38) Tough endred,endred,res,res,res
41) Gloom acc,acc,dmg,dmg,dmg,rech
44) Dark Obliteration acc,acc,dmg,dmg,dmg,rech
47) Strength of Will res,res,res
50) Resurgence endmod

As you can see it's mainly ST damage. Does very well soloing and can handle most enemies without breaking too much of a sweat. On a team, it does equally well, and best of all the build doesn't NEED expensive IOs to perform at a level that will make you feel "super". Ofcourse, once you get fancy nice IO sets you feel like a fricken horned god, but that's a story for another time.....


Hope I helped a bit.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydian01 View Post
I can't comment on the /WP side of things, but I would recommend against a few things suggested about DM.
I'll comment on the /WP side.

You want to build for typed defenses, aim for 30-35% SM/L/ENRG/NEG.

If that proves too expensive (requires multiple sets of kinetic combats) you could aim for around 20% which will still be a significant improvement.

Also, build for +HP, I generally ignore the +regen bonuses from sets and choose them specifically - as you get both regen and more of a cushion for alphas from +HP.

The main portion of your regen will come from building for +HP, Accolades (more HP) and slotting RttC, Fast Healing and Health.

You don't really need rech for /WP, but I would try for around 30-50% global depending on your budget.



For Dark Melee I'd take:
  • Smite
  • Shadow Maul
  • Siphon Life
  • Midnight Grasp

For better single target damage go Soul Mastery and take Gloom. You can also take Dark Oblit and Darkest Night if you have space.

If you take Darkest Night and run it often, you might actually want/need Dark Consumption more than you think.


 

Posted

What about dm/sr? I have a 50 spines/sr and super reflexes might be something that can get me into brutes. It is a straight forward, all around tough set. The only thing I have ever missed about my sr was the lack of a heal, but siphon life covers for that.

I might have to re-role one more time...


protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll

 

Posted

DM goes very will with SR. As you said it picks up a heal that SR lacks and the -tohit from DM lets you be a little more free in hitting the softcap in defense.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydian01 View Post
DM goes very will with SR. As you said it picks up a heal that SR lacks and the -tohit from DM lets you be a little more free in hitting the softcap in defense.
yeah I might try that. the dm/wp although a good concept seems a lil more advance than some one tryint to understand a AT right off the bat.

Thanks for the advice all.


protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll

 

Posted

One interesting thing about /SR, and this has been brought up before in other forums, is the concept of "too much survivability". Now, staying alive is the goal, but at what point is your mitigation way more than you actually need, and what you give up for it.

/SR is the poster child of softcapped defense and comes packed with extreme DDR as well. There are VERY few mobs in the game that can send you into cascading failure with /SR. Defense through IOs is much more prone to this, but is still very survivable.

The downside is that for a huge portion of the game, your defense is overkill. The DM/SR combo does exactly that. DM increases the Defense factor even more and packs the heal SR lacks. But if you can already survive with SR WITHOUT a heal and DM's -tohit, then what are you really picking up? My Claws/SR scrapper sure doesn't need "more" mitigation than she already has.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Brutes live for damage. Their cap is incredibly high (like 850%) and they have Fury. Due to this, Brutes get a lot more mileage out of defense sets that improve offense, just look at /SD brutes.

After playing with /SR and realizing how Brutes worked with damage, I rolled DM/FA and scrapped my DM/SR. I wanted to gain the benefits of a high damage secondary while still retaining good survivability. Now, I can't just hop in a group of 50 enemies and laugh like SR, but I can still stand up fairly well using LoS tactics and playing smarter. On top of all that, I get more benefit out of team mitigation buffs than SR would. My resists are far from the cap (cept Fire) and I have negligible defense. Thus getting those sonic/cold/therm/etc buffs help me quite a bit.

Anyway, the short of it is, there IS such a thing as too much mitigation, but for Brutes there isn't such a thing as too much damage.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydian01 View Post
One interesting thing about /SR, and this has been brought up before in other forums, is the concept of "too much survivability". Now, staying alive is the goal, but at what point is your mitigation way more than you actually need, and what you give up for it.

/SR is the poster child of softcapped defense and comes packed with extreme DDR as well. There are VERY few mobs in the game that can send you into cascading failure with /SR. Defense through IOs is much more prone to this, but is still very survivable.

The downside is that for a huge portion of the game, your defense is overkill. The DM/SR combo does exactly that. DM increases the Defense factor even more and packs the heal SR lacks. But if you can already survive with SR WITHOUT a heal and DM's -tohit, then what are you really picking up? My Claws/SR scrapper sure doesn't need "more" mitigation than she already has.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Brutes live for damage. Their cap is incredibly high (like 850%) and they have Fury. Due to this, Brutes get a lot more mileage out of defense sets that improve offense, just look at /SD brutes.

After playing with /SR and realizing how Brutes worked with damage, I rolled DM/FA and scrapped my DM/SR. I wanted to gain the benefits of a high damage secondary while still retaining good survivability. Now, I can't just hop in a group of 50 enemies and laugh like SR, but I can still stand up fairly well using LoS tactics and playing smarter. On top of all that, I get more benefit out of team mitigation buffs than SR would. My resists are far from the cap (cept Fire) and I have negligible defense. Thus getting those sonic/cold/therm/etc buffs help me quite a bit.

Anyway, the short of it is, there IS such a thing as too much mitigation, but for Brutes there isn't such a thing as too much damage.
There is such a thing as too much mitigation.... but as long as you can't survive 8 lvl 54 Heroes most of the time, without dying and without insps, you haven't reached it. =P (*hint* LRSF's last mission solo)

At the very least, if you still can't solo an AV without insps, you aren't tough enough yet. And /SR certainly isn't without some kind of heal, unless you're really lucky.

Even for brutes, there is such a thing as too much damage. Once you've reached the cap of 850%, anything more is worthless.

Survivability doesn't really have a cap, cause you'd have to hit the max for regen, health, resistance and defence before you can't get any more survivability. And there would always be heals for the sets that have it. =P


"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX

 

Posted

There are "caps", and then there are practically worthless increases. My softcapped Claws/SR does not have the medicine pool, so has no heal. GMs and AVs (unless they have some extra tohit beyond their inherent increases) can't kill her unless I get very unlucky. A heal would help in a few cases, but for the rest of the game, it wouldn't be used. Some groups give her trouble (Vanguard), but I don't have to fight them.

Survivability in any given fight is binary, you either live and win, or die. There are no "bonus" points for having extra-super-awesome survivability. You don't get an extra recipe or merit increase for not taking any damage. If I take down an AV with 1 HP left, I still won. So if my SR wins without taking a single hit, then any bonuses to regen/resistance/+HP aren't even factored in. That is the "overkill".

Now, I could set myself to some ridiculously difficult metric to achieve, such as soloing the LRSF like you mentioned. I'm sure people build for it. I bet someone has done it (I don't know of any). But Task/Strike forces are meant and designed for teams, so I would just get one of those. Quite a bit cheaper than the IO layout it would need as well.

All that said, some people LOVE building to pull off the impossible. If that is your gameplay preference, then by all means go for it. The point is there are mitigation levels that can be achieved that is way overkill for certain/most parts of the game. And hitting them at the expense of other facets of your character may not be worth it.

It still means DM goes very well with SR....from a defensive standpoint.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydian01 View Post
There are "caps", and then there are practically worthless increases. My softcapped Claws/SR does not have the medicine pool, so has no heal. GMs and AVs (unless they have some extra tohit beyond their inherent increases) can't kill her unless I get very unlucky. A heal would help in a few cases, but for the rest of the game, it wouldn't be used. Some groups give her trouble (Vanguard), but I don't have to fight them.

Survivability in any given fight is binary, you either live and win, or die. There are no "bonus" points for having extra-super-awesome survivability. You don't get an extra recipe or merit increase for not taking any damage. If I take down an AV with 1 HP left, I still won. So if my SR wins without taking a single hit, then any bonuses to regen/resistance/+HP aren't even factored in. That is the "overkill".

Now, I could set myself to some ridiculously difficult metric to achieve, such as soloing the LRSF like you mentioned. I'm sure people build for it. I bet someone has done it (I don't know of any). But Task/Strike forces are meant and designed for teams, so I would just get one of those. Quite a bit cheaper than the IO layout it would need as well.

All that said, some people LOVE building to pull off the impossible. If that is your gameplay preference, then by all means go for it. The point is there are mitigation levels that can be achieved that is way overkill for certain/most parts of the game. And hitting them at the expense of other facets of your character may not be worth it.

It still means DM goes very well with SR....from a defensive standpoint.
I am simply trying to find a easy brute set to play so I can adapt the the play style you need to play them. I ain't trying to go dm/sr so I can say I am super uber and smacked recluse in his face with my e-*****!

Trying to find somthing that I know will work together well, that will make a smooth transition. That is all. I do like the advice though.


protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll

 

Posted

Heh sorry, didn't try to come across as overly critical of anyone. The whole point I was trying to make is this. Brutes do damage and live off of Fury. There are secondaries out there that can leverage this to the brute's advantage. SR isn't really one of em. But its defense is fantastic when properly slotted. But check out something like Shield Defense or Fiery Aura for a more damaging route if that's what you are looking for.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydian01 View Post
Heh sorry, didn't try to come across as overly critical of anyone. The whole point I was trying to make is this. Brutes do damage and live off of Fury. There are secondaries out there that can leverage this to the brute's advantage. SR isn't really one of em. But its defense is fantastic when properly slotted. But check out something like Shield Defense or Fiery Aura for a more damaging route if that's what you are looking for.
See I ran a fm/da up to 28, and even though dark regen is uber I didn't like the hugh endurance drain.

Maybe some of this is my fault. I am looking for a no brainer secondary that I won't have to worry about, while I can focus on my primary purpose.

at lvl 7 my dm/sr generates much more fury than the /wp because I can actually survive long enough to gain some. I know 8 lvls in't enough to determine a set, especially since it is a secondary.

Look I really like SR, liked it since the launch of the game. I can understand how you say it could be TOO MUCH! yes it is a power intensive power set. That is why I went dark, becasue of the ST dmg, and to maybe the -tohit will make it where I don't have to take weave. So far that has been happening.

I have tryed stone armor, invun, da, and sr, on the brute side. So far SR seems to be working best. I am sure that it is due to DM. Didn't realize the multi-stacking -tohit debuffs, added up to that much. I can take my 13% melee def, and kill a vamp lord with out a touch.

I think this is what I need to adapt to the style of play. I toggle SR on, and then go to town.

Trust and believe I want to run a electric melee/shield brute (thats another one I tryed). Shield is very nice too.

This toon may just be fun enough for me to go over and learn the maps and what not.


protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll