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I'd expect an IO'd Broadsword/Willpower Scrapper to outsurvive a /Shield.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
+ AaO
+ DDR It could be me sucking at DA, Fire and WP, but I can't get anywhere near Shield level of performance with any of these secondaries. Survivability ? It'll never even be close unless I fight the very specific foes who haven't defense debuffs. Damage ? Not close either, AaO-fueled Shield Charge is as good as a damage aura against multiple foes (without considering AaO also boosts every other attack you have), and AaO is better than a damage aura for ST damage. If anything, everytime I roll a new scrapper the question I ask myself is "from a performance point of view, why play anything that *isn't* Shield ?", and I still haven't any answer to that. |
Use Parry to supplement all the + def sets will allow you to cap melee defence and have good ranged def, all this backed up by resists and massive regen.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Sheilds is actually a very end light set. Though most of the available pairings are with end heavy primaries.|
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
No heal. Yes the tier9 grants extra heal, but no extra heal component with it. IT is also a end heavy set. With Body Mastery: Conserve Power and the new Physical Perfection, it's not so bad.
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The other reason that shields appears to be end heavy is that its base mitigation is so low many players feel compelled to add the fighting pool which adds some benefit for far too much endurance.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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In most end game builds, you are not limited by recharge, only by the time of the attacks. Quickness can improve DPS by allowing a better attack chain, but there's no easy mathematical relationship like this.|
Originally Posted by Negescape
100 damage attack every 3 seconds, 100/3 = 33dps
20% haste = 2.5 seconds = 100/2.5 = 40dps, 23% gain 20.6% damage boost (3 enemies) = 120.6 = 40dps, 23% gain |
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
It could be me sucking at DA, Fire and WP, but I can't get anywhere near Shield level of performance with any of these secondaries. Survivability ? It'll never even be close unless I fight the very specific foes who haven't defense debuffs.
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Granted, there are a lot of foes with defense debuffs. I do consider lack of defense debuff resistance to be a hole in your armor. But I've not generally seen it as a serious hole outside of something like the ITF.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
I'd expect an IO'd Broadsword/Willpower Scrapper to outsurvive a /Shield.
Use Parry to supplement all the + def sets will allow you to cap melee defence and have good ranged def, all this backed up by resists and massive regen. |
And you don't need Broad Sword or Katana to soft cap a Willpower.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Quote:
*shrugs* Then you're probably a better player than I am.|
??? Granted, there are a lot of foes with defense debuffs. I do consider lack of defense debuff resistance to be a hole in your armor. But I've not generally seen it as a serious hole outside of something like the ITF. |
On any alt without either significant DDR or active mitigation (controls, reliable KD), even at the softcap I get completely wasted solo on +3/x8 or +4/x8 against arachnos, longbow, banished pantheon, carnies, cimerorans, rularuu and vanguard. Maltas, KoA and some praetorians will also give me a hard time sometimes. Even council, crey or family (!!!) can sometimes stack a bunch of -def and take me down.
That leaves Freakshow, Rikti, Nemesis, Circle of Thorn and many praetorians, for the factions who don't give me trouble with defense debuffs.
Now of course in actual gameplay I use insps as needed and I'm fine, but when I don't, the above happens.
I'm not going to claim my Shield alts sleepwalk through all that, but it's significantly easier. Part of it is probably because of the higher kill speed, but the difference is large enough that it isn't just that.
Actually, it sounds like it's just because I haven't taken any secondary but Super Reflexes up against +4x8 yet. I expect my Katana/Regen to have some serious problems when I do. I didn't realize you were talking about that level of difficulty. At that level of difficulty, pretty much any hole in your armor can get you killed, lack of defense debuff resistance included. 
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Hmmm...while I haven't tried it with a scrapper yet...I've survived that just fine with an IOed out WP/ Tanker.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Actually, it sounds like it's just because I haven't taken any secondary but Super Reflexes up against +4x8 yet. I expect my Katana/Regen to have some serious problems when I do. I didn't realize you were talking about that level of difficulty. At that level of difficulty, pretty much any hole in your armor can get you killed, lack of defense debuff resistance included.
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Of course taking out the enemies took FOREVER!
While for the ITF I find DDR to be extremely valuable. It's been the only place on any of my scrappers I ever found it to be extremely valuable.
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Holes in Shields... really there aren't any show stoppers; my 50 BS/Shield is close to the survivability level of my Invuln tanker and outputs FAR more damage.
True it requires some IO investment to reach it's potential... I think I've about $150 million in my build to soft cap and give me Regen levels of endurance recovery. (This doesn't include the three Membrane HO's in AD that I've had in storage from 3 years of Hami raids, issues 3 to 9) I've run Council, Freaks and Carnies at +4/8 man settings and been able to handle it all with some inspiration use.
The biggest problem is simply that it's a slow starter... until you get above 30% defense you'll feel pretty squishy and it doesn't really shine until you get above 40%. Once you reach the soft cap though it's a fantastic set.
Heck, I've tanked the ITF with that BS/Shield scrapper... no team buffs and no issues. The def debuffs couldn't overcome my DDR to drop my defense by a noticeable amount... I believe the lowest I got was around 42%.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I dunno about 30%, on my new little electric project I've been running with 23% melee and 24% ranged/aoe since like level 19 and haven't really felt pressured on normal mission runs (I've been running freak arcs to farm merits for the more expensiver (see: ALL) uniques) to get more. But I am running 0/0 to keep speed rates up, but then I'm also herding 16 mobs at once for those kill all missions. So i dunno.
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LOL @ grant cover on something like a scrapper. I really wish they would move the defense debuff resistance and recharge resistance (which makes ABSOLUTELY no sense in that power) into other tier 1-6 powers in the set. And then change grant cover around somewhat to give it more of a reason to take it, but not a necessity. Wasting that much more endurance for just the debuff resistnaces is really a slap in the face for a more solo-oriented AT like a scrapper.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Grant Cover has 30% rech resistance.
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As mentioned the small amount of debuff resistance even with all of them is pretty poor. Especially considering the base values the set gets are just HORRID. The set NEEDS IOs to really be able to function somewhat decently. Yes IOs make it gobs better, as they should, but if you really look at the set at base performance, well, without IOs i would never even come anywhere near touching the set.|
Originally Posted by vinque
I am still relatively new so I hope this isn't a dumb question, but I've been playing with the various scrapper secondaries in Mid's and all seem to have their weakness except shield defense. Am I missing something? I mean, I'm guessing it's something that I'm missing "on paper", because it has very good defense combined with good resistance, all status prot covered, and a boost to offense. All this with reasonable endurance toggles. I did a quick and dirty build of /SD and got capped melee and ranged def w/40% AOE def; 30% s/l res w/20%(approx) res everything else, 10 or more status prot in all but taunt,placate, and teleport; 65% res def debuff; and 220% Regen/155% Recov. All this with a built-in (Against All Odds) boost to primaries. I really hope I'm missing something. *scratches head and wonders why first char was /SR*
*scratches head and wonders why I didn't download Mid's sooner* |
So no heal or regen, for minor defense and minor resistance/hp buff, for a +damage toggle, and a aoe power that recharges in 90 seconds. Not really a fair tradeoff when the main focus of the secondary should be on your surivval. IOs are the only recourse for the set i'd sadly agree on. Fun when you're there, uber painful when you're not.
I would have to point out though, especially if we're talking about IOing, that i do MUCH prefer the shields tier 9 versus SR's, considering when IOd it actually has a purpose. I'd like to see Elude changed to something like a lower defense value, and get an additional resistance buff and lower recharge, lower crash.
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Interestingly enough, that was actually the design intent of the set: a +def set on par with */Fire for survivability. Of course, because it's defense based rather than damage recovery or resistance based, it gets a massive increase in survivability when IOs are added, allowing it to leave absolutely everything else in the dust (don't even get me started on how borked the disparity between defense power set gains from IOs, resistance power set gains, and damage recovery power set gains are).
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
So no heal or regen, for minor defense and minor resistance/hp buff, for a +damage toggle, and a aoe power that recharges in 90 seconds. Not really a fair tradeoff when the main focus of the secondary should be on your surivval. IOs are the only recourse for the set i'd sadly agree on. Fun when you're there, uber painful when you're not.
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Yeah, things are a bit out of whack there; you'd think that there would be some significant +resist bonuses to go along with the +def bonuses. To keep pace you'd have to have the +resist at double the strength of the +def.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Interestingly enough, that was actually the design intent of the set: a +def set on par with */Fire for survivability. Of course, because it's defense based rather than damage recovery or resistance based, it gets a massive increase in survivability when IOs are added, allowing it to leave absolutely everything else in the dust (don't even get me started on how borked the disparity between defense power set gains from IOs, resistance power set gains, and damage recovery power set gains are).
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As it is it's futile trying to build resistance via set bonuses yet it's highly effective building defense. That's partially what makes Invuln so powerful; you're starting out with good resistance and ok defense that you can turn into good resistance and outstanding defense.
You see the same thing with inspirations, purples are simply far more effective than oranges in most situations.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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All of these things were brought up in the closed beta for shields. Just prior to going to Open Beta the base resists in Deflection and True Grit were tripled and the debuff resistances were added to Grant Cover.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
LOL @ grant cover on something like a scrapper. I really wish they would move the defense debuff resistance and recharge resistance (which makes ABSOLUTELY no sense in that power) into other tier 1-6 powers in the set. And then change grant cover around somewhat to give it more of a reason to take it, but not a necessity. Wasting that much more endurance for just the debuff resistnaces is really a slap in the face for a more solo-oriented AT like a scrapper.
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The reasons that the resistances were added was because Castle had made a math error at the beginning on total mitigation.
The reason that the debuff resistances were added to Grant Cover was because the set needed them and because Castle wanted people to take and run Grant Cover. Paraphrasing Castle, "No power should be easily skippable."
In closed beta Grant Cover was almost universally skipped by the majority of the testers because it gave no personal benefit and team benefit was dubious due to short radius. Castle's (or at least the development team's) vision for shields was 3/4 melee and 1/4 buff. No one was taking the buff powers. The needed resistances were added here, instead of a more thematic place, specfically to force players to take the power. Many of us in closed saw it as a punative move.
It's another case of the dev's vision having a collision with player vision and intention. We weren't playing it as they intended so, rather than make it fit in with what we wanted to do playing it, they bent it to force us to play it as they envisioned it.
Kind of like Dominators. In 3 years or so, after they've gathered a bunch of data they'll look at it and say, "hmmmm no one is playing this the way we designed it." Maybe at that time they'll make the appropriate changes to the set so that it can work smoothly the way we want it instead of the rigid and non-thematic way it was designed.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Well its not like you can skill skip the power, the resistance is not that huge of a deal in and of itself, however being able to give it when needed(grant cover on an ITF? is awesome!) is a great investment.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
All of these things were brought up in the closed beta for shields. Just prior to going to Open Beta the base resists in Deflection and True Grit were tripled and the debuff resistances were added to Grant Cover.
The reasons that the resistances were added was because Castle had made a math error at the beginning on total mitigation. The reason that the debuff resistances were added to Grant Cover was because the set needed them and because Castle wanted people to take and run Grant Cover. Paraphrasing Castle, "No power should be easily skippable." In closed beta Grant Cover was almost universally skipped by the majority of the testers because it gave no personal benefit and team benefit was dubious due to short radius. Castle's (or at least the development team's) vision for shields was 3/4 melee and 1/4 buff. No one was taking the buff powers. The needed resistances were added here, instead of a more thematic place, specfically to force players to take the power. Many of us in closed saw it as a punative move. It's another case of the dev's vision having a collision with player vision and intention. We weren't playing it as they intended so, rather than make it fit in with what we wanted to do playing it, they bent it to force us to play it as they envisioned it. Kind of like Dominators. In 3 years or so, after they've gathered a bunch of data they'll look at it and say, "hmmmm no one is playing this the way we designed it." Maybe at that time they'll make the appropriate changes to the set so that it can work smoothly the way we want it instead of the rigid and non-thematic way it was designed. |
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Actually you can once you hit the soft cap on positional defenses especially if you get another 4-5% over the cap. With base defense debuff resistances with out GC you can take one defense debuffing attack and still be at the softcap. A small purple gives you the ability to be hit with 2-3 more and still be at the soft cap (insps drop like rain, just as well use them).|
Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
Well its not like you can skill skip the power, the resistance is not that huge of a deal in and of itself, however being able to give it when needed(grant cover on an ITF? is awesome!) is a great investment.
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Deflecting defense debuffing attacks is almost as good as having high defense debuff resistances. Deflecting attacks that have slow components is almost as good as slow resistance.
Because of the way shields is designed I haven't been able to get all the primary and pool powers that I wanted and still hit the soft cap and have room for all the secondary powers I want. I'm always 1 power short and on all my builds it has come down to either skipping GC or skipping OWtS.
Honestly if I have one I don't really need the other and since IO set bonuses and Insps give higher values on defense than on resistances. GC is the one I find easier to skip even now. A winter's gift IO and I don't miss GC at all.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
All of these things were brought up in the closed beta for shields. Just prior to going to Open Beta the base resists in Deflection and True Grit were tripled and the debuff resistances were added to Grant Cover.
The reasons that the resistances were added was because Castle had made a math error at the beginning on total mitigation. The reason that the debuff resistances were added to Grant Cover was because the set needed them and because Castle wanted people to take and run Grant Cover. Paraphrasing Castle, "No power should be easily skippable." In closed beta Grant Cover was almost universally skipped by the majority of the testers because it gave no personal benefit and team benefit was dubious due to short radius. Castle's (or at least the development team's) vision for shields was 3/4 melee and 1/4 buff. No one was taking the buff powers. The needed resistances were added here, instead of a more thematic place, specfically to force players to take the power. Many of us in closed saw it as a punative move. It's another case of the dev's vision having a collision with player vision and intention. We weren't playing it as they intended so, rather than make it fit in with what we wanted to do playing it, they bent it to force us to play it as they envisioned it. Kind of like Dominators. In 3 years or so, after they've gathered a bunch of data they'll look at it and say, "hmmmm no one is playing this the way we designed it." Maybe at that time they'll make the appropriate changes to the set so that it can work smoothly the way we want it instead of the rigid and non-thematic way it was designed. |
Yeah sounds like something the devs would do. But i say its POPPYCOCK!!! :P I'm more of a fan of the powers when a set is good, and it has an extra power that helps, and can be fun, but ISN'T necessary.
Just look at elec melee, almost universally everyone skips lightning clap. I for one think its a fun power when used properly and try to pick it up when i can. Its certainly not necessary for the set, but sure can be fun. I think that's how most sets should be designed. To NOT need every power in a set, but having a few powers that help and are fun if you can fit them in.
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The only weakness I see on Shield is ....
No CLAWS!!!!!!
Same her nih, although one disadvantage I consider pretty important is that Shields doesn't tend to exemp as well as Willpower.