Selenir, do you have access to a hero planner? Are you able to post your build? That usually the fastest way to spot problems. The concerns you've raised are typically addressed by proper enhancement slotting.
For starters, are you on an IO set build or a generic SO/IO build? Can you afford an IO build?
Did you place 1 SOs worth of endurance reduction enhancement in all your attacks?
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On an IO build, this won't be a problem. On a generic IO/SO build it will present additional challenges but can be overcome.
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Originally Posted by Selenir
My only requirement for the character is that he has to be able to fly.
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Did you ding 50 and think the high end issues was normal out of a certain level of ignorance since it was your first character?
There is also one IO that goes a really long way to solving /Dark Armour's perceived endurance issues: The Theft of Essence: Chance for +End proc to slot in Dark Regeneration.
Even slotted for ED-capped End Reduction, Dark Regen still uses 1/5 of your blue bar every-time you heal. The proc allows you to take an alpha and be back up at full without any endurance loss in most cases.
that proc actually causes me to take risks when my blue bar is low...sure I have full health but if I hit dark regen I might get some endurance back, yeah why not.
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Ditto on this. Just not sure if the OP is in a position to purchase expensive IOs such as the ToE PROC. The build can be managed with out it, though it's REALLY nice to have.
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Originally Posted by Zetargos
that proc actually causes me to take risks when my blue bar is low...sure I have full health but if I hit dark regen I might get some endurance back, yeah why not.
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Why is it specifically that fly would present more challenges?| On an IO build, this won't be a problem. On a generic IO/SO build it will present additional challenges but can be overcome. |
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Originally Posted by Desmodos
Ditto on this. Just not sure if the OP is in a position to purchase expensive IOs such as the ToE PROC. The build can be managed with out it, though it's REALLY nice to have.
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| Did you ding 50 and think the high end issues was normal out of a certain level of ignorance since it was your first character? |
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I wasn't having issues with my namesake when they were in their early 20s, but by then I started to seek out how to build it at that point, since I wanted to get some good information how to do it. I mostly just asked out of curiosity.
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Originally Posted by Selenir
Although I'm not sure how relevant this question is to my issue, I was pretty well informed of how well different powersets fared as far as endurance issues, but I persisted with the character anyway because I love his concept. I just didn't realize how bad it would be.
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Hover is more costly than Combat Jumping. CJ give you the option to skip Cloak of Darkness or only use it when you actually need it. With out CJ you pretty need to run CoD to avoid getting immobilized. |
Originally Posted by Selenir
Why is it specifically that fly would present more challenges?
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Hover is a tad slow, this can be improved somewhat by basic flight enhancement but it will never be as fast as CJ. Slow Hover speed can be overcome by hover/fly binds but this means burning more endurance while using fly.
None of these concerns are unsurmountable, but if you are stuggling with endurance to start with, it doesn't help. Once IO Sets are added, these concerns are trivialized.
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| It depends on how expensive they all are. I'd like to IO him out completely eventually, but he'll probably have mostly SOs for a while. That particular enhancement is probably worth the investment early on though. |
My DA builds employ multiple Zephyrs which immediately add 45-75 million to a build, I prefer to acquire these first. A cheaper alternative would be acquiring Steadfast or Karma KB protection. Theft of Essense: PROC, Miracle's Unique, and Numina's Unique are all very powerful tools for endurance management, but very expensive. You can achieve significant endurance management ease simply by add Max End bonuses via sets like Impervium Armor, Gift of the Ancient sets and/or Eradication. My final builds typically employ all of these techniques.
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| Although I'm not sure how relevant this question is to my issue, I was pretty well informed of how well different powersets fared as far as endurance issues, but I persisted with the character anyway because I love his concept. I just didn't realize how bad it would be. |
Seriously, it's a lot easier if you post your current build.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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Okay, gotta go put it into Mid's. I'll post it in a bit.
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Originally Posted by Desmodos
Seriously, it's a lot easier if you post your current build.
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Nimble Slash
(A) Damage Increase
(3) Damage Increase
(3) Damage Increase
(5) Accuracy
(5) Endurance Reduction
(7) Endurance Reduction
Level 1: Dark Embrace
(A) Resist Damage
(7) Resist Damage
(9) Resist Damage
(9) Endurance Reduction
Level 2: Ablating Strike
(A) Damage Increase
(13) Damage Increase
(15) Damage Increase
(15) Accuracy
(17) Endurance Reduction
(17) Endurance Reduction
Level 4: Murky Cloud
(A) Resist Damage
(11) Resist Damage
(11) Resist Damage
(13) Endurance Reduction
Level 6: Typhoon's Edge
(A) Damage Increase
(21) Damage Increase
(21) Damage Increase
(23) Accuracy
(23) Endurance Reduction
(25) Endurance Reduction
Level 8: Hover
(A) Endurance Reduction
Level 10: Obsidian Shield
(A) Resist Damage
(25) Resist Damage
(27) Resist Damage
(27) Endurance Reduction
Level 12: Blinding Feint
(A) Accuracy
(19) To Hit Buff
(19) Endurance Reduction
Level 14: Fly
(A) Flight Speed
Level 16: Swift
(A) Run Speed
Level 18: Health
(A) Healing
(29) Healing
Level 20: Stamina
(A) Endurance Modification
(29) Endurance Modification
(31) Endurance Modification
(31) Endurance Modification
Level 22: Death Shroud
(A) Damage Increase
(31) Damage Increase
(33) Damage Increase
(33) Endurance Reduction
(33) Endurance Reduction
(34) Endurance Reduction
Level 24: Dark Regeneration
(A) Healing
(34) Healing
(34) Recharge Reduction
(36) Recharge Reduction
(36) Endurance Reduction
(36) Endurance Reduction
Level 26: Vengeful Slice
(A) Damage Increase
(37) Damage Increase
(37) Damage Increase
(37) Accuracy
(39) Endurance Reduction
(39) Endurance Reduction
Level 28: Sweeping Strike
(A) Damage Increase
(39) Damage Increase
(40) Damage Increase
(40) Accuracy
(40) Endurance Reduction
(42) Endurance Reduction
Level 30: Boxing
(A) Empty
Level 32: One Thousand Cuts
(A) Damage Increase
(43) Damage Increase
(43) Damage Increase
(43) Accuracy
(46) Endurance Reduction
(46) Endurance Reduction
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom
(A) Accuracy
Level 38: Soul Transfer
(A) Endurance Modification
Level 41: Conserve Power
(A) Recharge Reduction
(42) Recharge Reduction
(42) Recharge Reduction
Level 44: Tough
(A) Resist Damage
(45) Resist Damage
(45) Resist Damage
(45) Endurance Reduction
(46) Endurance Reduction
Level 47: Weave
(A) Defense Buff
(48) Defense Buff
(48) Defense Buff
(48) Endurance Reduction
(50) Endurance Reduction
Level 49: Hasten
(A) Recharge Reduction
(50) Recharge Reduction
(50) Recharge Reduction
------------
Level 1: Brawl
(A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
(A) Run Speed
Level 2: Rest
(A) Recharge Reduction
Level 1: Critical Hit
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
I think I did that right. >_> It might not be the exact levels I took each power, but all the slots are in the right places at least.
Thanks for posting the build. Understand that everything I'm posting here is simply my opinion. I have a particular way I like to play and slot Dark Armor. They are not the only way to achieve a really good/fun build.
The Good News:
You are actually in better shape than I thought. You could easily transition into an IO set build without respecing immediately. You do have some powers over slotted (Tough, Weave, Stamina,) and a couple underslotted (Hover, Blinding Feint), but I would not move the slots until you were closer to completing the build.
I suspect your survivability problems are tied to Dark Regeneration endurance costs and the lack of knockback protection. Hover can serve as a psuedo-KB protection power, but the resulting back flip will still slow you down. If you get hit with -fly your KB protection disappears entirely and you've now become the worlds deadliest ping pong ball. KBs mean less targets in DR range and more targets outside of OG room range.
Also keep in mind that while Hasten helps bring Conserve Power and Dark Regeneration up more quickly, the mild end crash also contributes to your endurance management challenges.
The quasi-Bad News
You are not going to see a significant improvement in your characters performance without IOs. While you're SO build could be improved, the difference would not be noticeable. I call this quasi-bad news because even with very few IOs you will notice a dramatic difference in your characters performance. The steps I am listing below are the order which I think you will find most immediately noticeable.
- Read my DM/DA guide. Sorry to do a self-plug here but the Dark Armor sections will explain the how and why of many of my suggestions below.
- Purchase a KB protection IO. For now, just purchase 1 and place it in Hover. Blessing of the Zephyr are my preference for defense bonuses later, but they run 15-30 million. A cheaper alternative will be Steadfast (put it in Tough)or Karma's, typically 2-5 million. Get the lowest level KB protection IO you can find.
- Place the following IOs in Dark Regeneration. ToE: PROC, Acc/end/healing, Acc/end/rech. ToN: Acc/end/rech. 2 from any heal set: heal/end/rech
- If you have not already done so, earn Atlas Medallion and Portal Jockey accolades.
- Place two Eradication IOs in Typhoon's Edge, Sweeping Strike, and 1K Cuts. Any two will do, but if using the damage PROCs is ideal.
- Place a Miracle and Numina's Unique in Health
- Place 4 Impervium Armors in DE,OS, MC, and Tough. (FYI, my final build use Tough as a mule and is barely slotted)
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Thanks for the advice! This is extremely helpful to me, and I think I'm getting a better understanding of DA's mechanics by working through all this as well.
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How does your way of slotting/playing Dark Armor differ from other methods, and what are its pros and cons?| Thanks for posting the build. Understand that everything I'm posting here is simply my opinion. I have a particular way I like to play and slot Dark Armor. They are not the only way to achieve a really good/fun build. |
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| Hover can serve as a psuedo-KB protection power, but the resulting back flip will still slow you down. |
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| Also keep in mind that while Hasten helps bring Conserve Power and Dark Regeneration up more quickly, the mild end crash also contributes to your endurance management challenges. |
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| [*] If you have not already done so, earn Atlas Medallion and Portal Jockey accolades. |
Quote:
Because endurance recovery is based off of maximum endurance. If you have 10% more endurance, you also recover 10% faster.
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Originally Posted by Selenir
I'm somewhat surprised that you say increasing max endurance is such a huge help. It seems to me like it wouldn't have that big of an effect on your endurance over a long period of time. Why is it that max endurance increases are so helpful?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Oh... dude. Nice.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Because endurance recovery is based off of maximum endurance. If you have 10% more endurance, you also recover 10% faster.
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Looks like I'm going Accolade Hunting tonight!
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The majority of my Dark Armor builds (including DB/DA) use CoF, but this adds additional challenges to managing endurance. I personally feel CoF allows Death Shroud to do more of the work for you than OG allows. This does require pursuing +acc bonuses. |
Originally Posted by Selenir
How does your way of slotting/playing Dark Armor differ from other methods, and what are its pros and cons?
|
I also build all of my Dark Armor scrappers for 25-30%, which IMHO has a dramatic affect on my survivablity. My method for achieving this requires three sets of Blessing of the Zephyr in three travel pool powers. You could achieve the same amount of defense by other bonuses. How you chose to get them won't really change their effectivness. My choices allow me to pursue the +acc bonuses I need for CoF.
Quote:
| Is it worth keeping the power? |
Personally, I feel the endurance management techniques I have outlined negate any need for conserve power. Your experience may vary. You don't need to respec out of it just yet. Once you've gotten endurance management IOs in place, just take note of how often you still rely on Conserver Power. If feel you still need it, keep it. If you are not using it, well replace it with something you can use.
Quote:
| I'm somewhat surprised that you say increasing max endurance is such a huge help. It seems to me like it wouldn't have that big of an effect on your endurance over a long period of time. Why is it that max endurance increases are so helpful? |
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
This may just be me being exceptionally nitpicky, but you don't recover 10% faster, you just recover 10% more. For example, if it took you 40s to go from 0 to full end, it would still take 40 seconds with the Accolades. Just, instead of getting 100 end during those 40s, you'd be regaining 110 end.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Because endurance recovery is based off of maximum endurance. If you have 10% more endurance, you also recover 10% faster.
|
This is the same general principle that regen operates under, too. Higher regen = higher hp/sec due to ticks happening more frequently. Higher maxhp = higher hp/sec due to each tick being bigger. Having both is the best, of course.
Desmodos,
I read your DM/DA and I love what I see. You are saying that you have done a DB/DA before. Would you be so kind as to show us here or perhaps a link to it so we could see what you have done??
a few general pointers that will probably help you out:
dark armor eats endurance. you'll have to watch and switch on/off toggles throughout most fights. this is true for any primary paired with /DA. 
slot one SO for endurance reduction in each attack. this will help your endurance problems more than putting one in each toggle.
if you haven't yet invested or looked at what IO's can do for you, then first save up for a Miracle +recovery IO and numina +regen/+recovery, slot those into health.
after doing the above if you still have endurance problems, take a look at your attack chain and usual playstyle. if you're burning 1k cuts on a single target, stop doing that. 
"Scrappers don't want the bit of dignity that Brutes left them taken away by (lol)Stalkers." -Delta_Strider, on Stalker buffs.
Current Project: Hard Goodbye, StJ/Nin
Retired: Blitzwulf, Claws/Nin (50); Perdition's Blade, Night Widow (50)
Hmmm ... I thank you for the thoughts. Still only lvl 18 and just trying to stick with it. I wreally enjoy the feel of it and would like to stick with it.
I will take the thoughts and write them down.
~~~~~~
Gabriel Night
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I have been inactive from CoH for the past few months. Mild case of burn out. I intend to return after Going Rogue. While I will be happy to post my last build once I get home, I cannot speak to how current the build remains.| I read your DM/DA and I love what I see. You are saying that you have done a DB/DA before. Would you be so kind as to show us here or perhaps a link to it so we could see what you have done?? |
Quote:
|
dark armor eats endurance. you'll have to watch and switch on/off toggles throughout most fights. this is true for any primary paired with /DA.
|
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
oops. should have clarified i meant the fear and stun toggles. des is correct, though, after stamina and some good slotting the regular resistance toggles in /da aren't that bad. it really will come down to playstyle and what attacks you're using and on how many/what kind of mobs.
i think in the end it's going to come down to your playstyle and if the sets fit it or not. sets like regen and wp both have quick recovery, so even after all the ideas here there is that one. although i'd be the first to say i roll alts like a madman before i settle on one to level up.
"Scrappers don't want the bit of dignity that Brutes left them taken away by (lol)Stalkers." -Delta_Strider, on Stalker buffs.
Current Project: Hard Goodbye, StJ/Nin
Retired: Blitzwulf, Claws/Nin (50); Perdition's Blade, Night Widow (50)
Not really a fan of a DB or Dark anything but here's something I cooked up for the combo.
This aint cheap, but I think it might help some of the DB/DA lovers out there
Code:
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OOOPS!! Sorry, I forgot to post this 
This is not what I would consider the most endurance friendly build, but it's quite manageable. In this build, greater emphasis was placed in positional defense bonuses. The empty slot in Tough is supposed to house the PvP + defense IO.
Again, I'm not actively playing CoH so I might not be completely up to date on IO choices. It's entirely possible there is a better way to achieve these aims in today's game. It is unlikely I will review this or any of my DA builds until after Going Rogue.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Cynsaya: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Teleportation
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(3), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), T'Death-Dam%(50)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam(7), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(7), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(11), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13)
Level 4: Death Shroud -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(15), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(15), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(17), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-ResKB(9), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(45)
Level 8: Blinding Feint -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(19), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(19), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), T'Death-Dam%(29)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(23), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(23), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 12: Typhoon's Edge -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Erad-%Dam(27), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 14: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(A), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Theft-+End%(31), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(33)
Level 20: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-ResKB(43), Zephyr-Travel(45)
Level 22: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(34)
Level 24: Vengeful Slice -- T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(A), T'Death-Acc/Dmg(34), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(34), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), T'Death-Dam%(36)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Erad-%Dam(37), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- DampS-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DampS-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(39), DampS-Rchg/EndRdx(39), Cloud-Acc/Rchg(43), Cloud-Acc/ToHitDeb(46), Cloud-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 30: Murky Cloud -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(40), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(40), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 32: One Thousand Cuts -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Erad-%Dam(42), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- Acc-I(A)
Level 38: Cloak of Darkness -- HO:Enzym(A)
Level 41: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Empty(48)
Level 47: Weave -- HO:Enzym(A)
Level 49: Recall Friend -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(50), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Code:
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Alright. My first character I ever got to level 50 is a DB/DA scrapper, and so far, I've been thoroughly disappointed by his power level. My 50 Dark/Shield scrapper destroys him in both survivability and in damage, and my 50 Energy/Energy blaster is also much more powerful. However, I still love the DB/DA character, though I'm reluctant to play him much because of how much weaker he is than my other two 50s.
Most of my issues come from his massive endurance problems. I often find myself completely without endurance moments after a battle begins, with no real way of recovering it other than carrying a tray full of blues (which is a very short-term solution).
I'm still very much new to the game, and I'd greatly appreciate some advice on how to improve the character. If someone could help me with a build, or even just give me some pointers on how to make an effective build of my own, that would be fantastic. My only requirement for the character is that he has to be able to fly.