Requesting Advice and Logic on Eviscerate vs. Total Focus
By
AnotherDeadHero,
Posted on: 2009-08-06 05:50 in Player Questions
I forgot to add.
It also bothers me that the scrapper power, Eviscerate can only do 249.00 damage, 15% of the time, but the Blaster power, Total Focus, can do 197.97 damage all the time.
Usually, the scrapper will do 124.50 damage, the blaster, 197.97.
The main reason for this is because a scrapper has greater survivability in Melee than the blaster does. So it is a trade off for the blaster, want to do that high damage? You may die.
Plus, dont forget the scrapper attack has a chance to critical and do double damage, the blaster does not.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by AnotherDeadHero
The main reason for this is because a scrapper has greater survivability in Melee than the blaster does. So it is a trade off for the blaster, want to do that high damage? You may die.
Plus, dont forget the scrapper attack has a chance to critical and do double damage, the blaster does not. |
Well, when the blaster get his epics at 4144/47/49, he can start picking up some pretty good resistances or defenses. As a trade off, look at the scrapper epics (only 3 set choices). By comparison, my sonic/energy blaster has Personal Force Field and Force of Nature, but could have picked body armor, etc. and now has extremely good survivability in melee.
I think the critical chance is good, and I realize that I'm comparing a superior damage to an extreme damage. Just that I'm seeing the blaster do better in melee than the scrapper. Damage and resist/defense. Maybe its because I'm SR...
Quote:
This is a very good point.|
Originally Posted by AnotherDeadHero
The main reason for this is because a scrapper has greater survivability in Melee than the blaster does. So it is a trade off for the blaster, want to do that high damage? You may die.
Plus, dont forget the scrapper attack has a chance to critical and do double damage, the blaster does not. |
How often is your blaster going to be using Total Focus? Every few seconds, or once in a while? It's a similar reason why blasters don't get Energy Transfer (do you really want to give up HP as a squishy, for a melee attack?). Also, keep in mind that that power is also available to other studier ATs (Tanker, Brute, Stalker), ATs that earn their living using that kind of attack. Plus, stop isolating one power from a set and trying to compare it to another, completely different one. Most of Energy Manipulation (and Energy Melee) has disorient up the wazoo. Claws has very few secondary effects (-def in one power and knockdown/back in two others?).
You're judging those two powers as if they exist in a vacuum. They do not. What level does a Scrapper first have Eviscerate available? 26. Now, what level does a Blaster first have Total Focus available? 38. What's the base recharge time on Eviscerate? 8.9 secs, roughly. What's the base recharge time on Total Focus for blasters? 20 seconds. So, in the time a blaster can do one Total Focus, a scrapper can do more than two Eviscerates (and the scrapper can crit with ALL of them). Why is this grapefruit not as sweet as this orange? I mean, they're the same thing, right?
My point is, you're judging these powers on a 'damage per activation' basis. I won't say that's 'wrong' per se, but you'll find you're constantly finding disparities because that method is seriously flawed. In the numbers you posted in the OP, multiply the Eviscerate damage by 2.1 (being conservative) to account for the massive difference in recharge time. Eviscerate also animates faster so factor that in too (you're not doing anything else for the extra second you're jumping in the air). There have been many powers whose performance changed when their animations were redone/replaced (Storm Kick comes to mind. Swipe too, I believe?) so it does matter.
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
Quote:
Even with the shield...Blasters get 'okay' resistance. Blasters still have a glass jaw in comparison with Scrappers.
|
Originally Posted by Rroht
Well, when the blaster get his epics at 4144/47/49, he can start picking up some pretty good resistances or defenses. As a trade off, look at the scrapper epics (only 3 set choices). By comparison, my sonic/energy blaster has Personal Force Field and Force of Nature, but could have picked body armor, etc. and now has extremely good survivability in melee.
I think the critical chance is good, and I realize that I'm comparing a superior damage to an extreme damage. Just that I'm seeing the blaster do better in melee than the scrapper. Damage and resist/defense. Maybe its because I'm SR... |
Interesting note, the difference is even more than you think. The powers are balanced individually based on the sets they're in, but also the AT they're on. Scrapper melee scale is 1.125 and Blaster is 1.00. If a Scrapper had Total Focus, it would do an additional 12.5% damage, doing over 220 total. Energy Transfer would do over 280.
But Blasters are all about damage and they have a ton of attacks that do high damage. So it's normal for attacks to outdamage Scrappers. Even if individual attacks don't, they have more AoEs, more attacks in general, the ability to attack at range, and nukes and other special powers. Blasters are supposed to do more damage, since that's all they do.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RemianenI
This is a very good point.
How often is your blaster going to be using Total Focus? Every few seconds, or once in a while? It's a similar reason why blasters don't get Energy Transfer (do you really want to give up HP as a squishy, for a melee attack?). Also, keep in mind that that power is also available to other studier ATs (Tanker, Brute, Stalker), ATs that earn their living using that kind of attack. Plus, stop isolating one power from a set and trying to compare it to another, completely different one. Most of Energy Manipulation (and Energy Melee) has disorient up the wazoo. Claws has very few secondary effects (-def in one power and knockdown/back in two others?). You're judging those two powers as if they exist in a vacuum. They do not. What level does a Scrapper first have Eviscerate available? 26. Now, what level does a Blaster first have Total Focus available? 38. What's the base recharge time on Eviscerate? 8.9 secs, roughly. What's the base recharge time on Total Focus for blasters? 20 seconds. So, in the time a blaster can do one Total Focus, a scrapper can do more than two Eviscerates (and the scrapper can crit with ALL of them). Why is this grapefruit not as sweet as this orange? I mean, they're the same thing, right? My point is, you're judging these powers on a 'damage per activation' basis. I won't say that's 'wrong' per se, but you'll find you're constantly finding disparities because that method is seriously flawed. In the numbers you posted in the OP, multiply the Eviscerate damage by 2.1 (being conservative) to account for the massive difference in recharge time. Eviscerate also animates faster so factor that in too (you're not doing anything else for the extra second you're jumping in the air). There have been many powers whose performance changed when their animations were redone/replaced (Storm Kick comes to mind. Swipe too, I believe?) so it does matter. |
Well, I don't feel I'm judging the powers in a vacuum like you say. With the amount of IO sets I have in effect, the Total Focus goes off very frequently. But you made a good point.
Also, you mentioned that eviscerate is level 26 and total focus in 38. That's true, also, and a good point. I suppose I just find it odd that Total Focus is extremely powerful, but has little downtime.
Either way, thanks for educating me on the logic.
Quote:
You have to discount I/O's in your calculations as well, because the Dev's treat IO's as optional and they don't (supposedly) change powers for them.|
Originally Posted by Rroht
Well, I don't feel I'm judging the powers in a vacuum like you say. With the amount of IO sets I have in effect, the Total Focus goes off very frequently. But you made a good point.
Also, you mentioned that eviscerate is level 26 and total focus in 38. That's true, also, and a good point. I suppose I just find it odd that Total Focus is extremely powerful, but has little downtime. Either way, thanks for educating me on the logic. |
Just remember its all a trade off, survivability for damage. Blasters are on the far right of that scale, and tankers the far left, and scrappers are somewhere in the middle. Somewhere there is a tanker that is wondering why his level 35 power does so much less damage than a scrappers 26...
Also:
The Claws powerset is not known for extremely hard-hitting attacks, it is known for speed and endurance-friendliness. Eviscerate is the slowest attack in the set by a wide margin, the rest of the set, as I'm sure you're aware, is extremely fast and doesn't stop piling damage on. It is ALSO an AoE cone attack. If you have a few enemies clumped together you can hit up to 5 with it.
Total Focus: 197 to ONE target.
Eviscerate: 124 to FIVE (potential) targets.
A better comparison would be to look at Total Focus versus, say, Head Splitter from the Broadsword set. Both are Extreme damage attacks and come at the end of their respective sets.
Without Build Up, Total Focus will do the aforementioned 197 damage.
In the same situation Head Splitter will do in the neighborhood of 250.
In making your comparison here, you pitted the scrapper AT's weakest heavy hitter against the blaster AT's strongest heavy hitter. Eviscerate is weak in comparison largely because it is technically an AoE, as is Ripper from Spines. Golden Dragonfly and Head Splitter technically are too, but you have to be skilled or lucky to hit more than one with any consistency because their cone is so small.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I have been playing with two characters. One is a claw/super reflex scrapper; the other, a sonic/energy blaster. Both are level 50.
In all honesty, I'd like some opinions and knowledge. My scrapper's best attack comes from his Primary Set: Eviscerate.
Eviscerate (Melee) Superior
124.50 Lethal
(15% chance) 124.50 Lethal
My blaster's best attack comes from his Secondary Set: Total Focus.
Total Focus (Melee) Extreme
55.61 Smashing
142.36 Energy
+11.92s Stun (mag 3)
Now I'm sorta confused, not by the numbers, but by the fact that my blaster does more melee damage than my scrapper, with an added Disorient. Was this intended?
Those numbers were for PvE. Here is PvP numbers.
Eviscerate (Melee) Superior
137.02 Lethal
(15% chance) 137.02 Lethal
Total Focus (Melee) Extreme
67.2 Smashing
172.8 Energy
+2s Stun (mag 3)
One of the reason I pose the PvP numbers is because, aside from the PvE play, I've also worked with them in Recluse's Victory. Consistantly, my blaster racks up the kills. My scrapper is severely lacking. And yes, I know that super reflexes has difficulties at this time, but even with the Eluder power in effect, he can't seem to "finish the deal" on a villain with his attacks.
But, either way, I'm curious why my scrapper is unable to do the damage, in melee, that my blaster can execute; not curious from the numbers, but curious as to why the developers created their powers this way. It's strange to me that the Blaster's Secondary Powerset has a Melee attack that is more powerful than anything in the Scrapper's Primary Powerset.
I'm not hating on Blaster's; I just want to know the logic. This question is both PvE and PvP, so I posted it in this section. If the problem is how I'm using the Claws Powerset, please explain/teach me how to work it.