i admit, the last one was rubbish.. but..
By
Accel,
Posted on: 2006-02-14 03:58 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
ahh yes, and im currently writing a sequal which is also the how commander beet joined the rangers story, 1514 words so far and im not done, still a load more to do.. expect a really long post in future.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
There's so many points I'd like to raise, but lets stick with the logical points.
From the story, the narrator and his two companions safeguarded the city from thousands of these things. This would make them significantly less dangerous than wasps are to humans and we don't go about talking about the war with them.
Then can I point out that you've got these android who've been evolving for thousands of years. Yet aparently still have eyelids (I can forgive that one) money, (why would robots use cash?) and require "training". Why would any robot ever need to train?!?
Last point. Contrary to popular belief, when a new disease is identified today Doctors rarely don their packback and stalk off to far flung places in search of the cure. It's usually found in laboratories after much in the way of hard work and little in the way of adventuring.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Then can I point out that you've got these android who've been evolving for thousands of years. Yet aparently still have eyelids (I can forgive that one)[ money, (why would robots use cash?) and require "training". Why would any robot ever need to train?!?
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Actually, eyelids -- or equivalent protection for fragile optical sensors -- make a lot of sense. And why wouldn't sentient robots use money?
Even a robotic society needs goods and since they need goods they need an economic system to distribute the goods through. Money works, so why not use it?
As for training, a lot of contemporary robot research is actually based on training robots to do tasks. A multi-purpose robot can't be programmed for all eventualities so it will need to be able to learn -- training is just another word for learning, after all.
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[Cures are] usually found in laboratories after much in the way of hard work and little in the way of adventuring.
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Not in four-colour comic books they're not!
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Actually, eyelids -- or equivalent protection for fragile optical sensors -- make a lot of sense. And why wouldn't sentient robots use money?
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Manmade optical sensors NOW don't use eyelids. Although I can accept it within the concept of the story - to preserve their human form.
This story is set thousands of years after the fall of an advanced human society. More advanced than we are and the story clearly states the android evolved far beyond what humans can imagine.
Money exists because shortages exists. Shortages exists because manufacturing capability is limited. If a machine society can't provide itself with a manufacutring infrastructure so good that shortages are almost unheard of then it's not very advanced.
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Even a robotic society needs goods and since they need goods they need an economic system to distribute the goods through. Money works, so why not use it?
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See above, but additionally, we're talking about senient machines with thousands of years behind them. No economic system we would recognise would be required because of the sophistication of the network.
We're talking machine intelligences here. We're talking communication capabilities that are thousands of orders of magnitude better than humans, we're talking about super-advanced mannufacturing techniques which may go as far as atomic manipulation.
If the society has these things but its citizens still have to go out an earn a crust then it's not a very advanced society. And remember, we're TOLD they'd advanced further than human imagined they would. This comes with certain implications imho.
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As for training, a lot of contemporary robot research is actually based on training robots to do tasks. A multi-purpose robot can't be programmed for all eventualities so it will need to be able to learn -- training is just another word for learning, after all.
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Humans train to build up and reinforce neural pathways. We do this because it's the only way to condition the human brain. A machine brain wouldn't suffer from that limitation.
Once one robot had learned a task it could instantly share that knowledge with any other robot it chose.
Robots would indeed still need to learn but they would do so at many thousands of times the speed of a human. What were these robots doing in a field. What was there for them to learn - especially after 1000 years of life. Remember to a sentient machine 1000 years could be the equivalent of many billions years worth of human experience.
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Not in four-colour comic books they're not!
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Hmmm, then you read different comics to me. Usually the quest involves finding the poison or whatever to bring back to the lab to create a cure from.
My point to the author is simply this; a good science fiction writer considers the implications of any technology he dreams up AND any preconceived notions hir readers might have about another technology. In this case; androids.
Do we expect super-advanced android to be motivated by money? Was Star-Trek's Data motivated by cash? Could the Terminator be bought off?
In short it's not enough to assume homoginising a piece of technology will be immediately accepted by the reader without explanation.
Just my opinion obviously.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
A definite improvement on your first piece. Still a few spelling and grammar errors, but far better than before. Good work.
The change of style works well, actually. Telling the story from a first-person perspective means you can get away with leaving certain details vague, and you use it rather well. It's a style worth considering more often if you find it works for you.
Three people holding off thousands of androids does seem a bit off. Perhaps if you stated that they were among the society's greatest warriors, and used tactics and terrain to their advantage, or maybe had some troops as backup, it would make a bit more sense.
I'd also have liked some information on how this disease in the androids was discovered. And how if, even a scratch can make them attack someone because they're different, they don't turn on each other once a battle has started.
You're definiely improving, keep at it, and you'll get better.
well the way i wrote this one (i wrote it a while ago actually) is that i put myself in a rp mind as beet and wrote down what he would say as if he was telling the story, the next one will go into that a little bit more, although im not all that sure about the grammar of it. im thinking of doing 4/5 stories, the third will be the carry on of part 2, part 4 will be beet at the point where he is telling the story and the part after that will be a mystery for now (yes i do know what it is, i just dont want to tell you 
).
but i will say this, from the information about the problems that you have included, i think i shall include at some point.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
Every camera I've ever had was furnished with a lens cap. Otherwise the lens would get scratched, and it's a bugger to replace. So why not have a lens cap on an android? And why not call it an eyelid?
�How do I like my MMOs? I like them the way Paragon Studios used to make them.� - a fitting tribute from kiasa.org
EU, Union mostly.
I guess you don't have a camera-phone then.
Also I think you'll find that there's a lot of digital cameras nowadays that don't ship with a lens cap.
After thousands of years of technological advancement you'd think a machine society would come up with an unscratchable transparent material. Afterall, they exist today.
However, I did say I would accept this particular bit as perhaps the androids had decided to retain a human shape, but my point was simply that the author was setting his story thousands of years in the future, it was a machine-based society and yet aside from the androids themselves there was little in the way of ultra-tech and that even the androids themselves didn't seem very advanced. YET we were told they were advanced. I would argue it's not enough to TELL us they're advanced, you have to SHOW us they're advanced.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
Actually, most camera phones do have something that covers the lens, on mine, it's the back cover.
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Money exists because shortages exists. Shortages exists because manufacturing capability is limited. If a machine society can't provide itself with a manufacutring infrastructure so good that shortages are almost unheard of then it's not very advanced.
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Manufacturing capacity is only one factor limiting the availability of goods. Raw resources and energy, transportation capacity, people's time and even waste disposal capacity are other limiting factors. No matter how advanced a society becomes there will always be limitations.
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See above, but additionally, we're talking about senient machines with thousands of years behind them. No economic system we would recognise would be required because of the sophistication of the network.
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That's a bold statement to make about another person's imaginary society. Just consider all the things a stone-age man would recognise in our own society: "You still need to eat? To sleep? You're still using knives? You still use rope? I thought you were advanced!"
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If the society has these things but its citizens still have to go out an earn a crust then it's not a very advanced society.
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A Roman citizen would probably say the same about our society.
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And remember, we're TOLD they'd advanced further than human imagined they would.
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Yes, but not in what ways. Technologically advanced? Philospohically advanced? Religiously? Political? Ethically?
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Humans train to build up and reinforce neural pathways. We do this because it's the only way to condition the human brain. A machine brain wouldn't suffer from that limitation.
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A machine brain might not suffer from that limitation.
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Once one robot had learned a task it could instantly share that knowledge with any other robot it chose.
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Theoretically; in the same way that we can theoretically exchange text documents between computers without problems.
EBCDIC-ASCII conversion anyone? Ever tried opening an old Word document in a newer version? Latin-1 or Latin-8? Right-to-left or right-to-left? Carriage Return, Line Feed or both?
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Robots would indeed still need to learn but they would do so at many thousands of times the speed of a human.
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Why? If a sentient robot brain is as complex as a human brain (which we can assume as it is sentient), training the robot brain might take just as much work as training the human brain. Just because it's artifical doesn't mean it's simple.
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What were these robots doing in a field. What was there for them to learn - especially after 1000 years of life.
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I'm sure that after 1000 years of life a sentient robot would have come to the realisation that there is a difference between theory and practice. Simulations can only take you so far, after all.
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Remember to a sentient machine 1000 years could be the equivalent of many billions years worth of human experience.
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You're making a biiig unwarranted assumption there. Why must a sentient brain be greatly more efficent than a human brain? We don't know what limitations sentience and self-awareness operate under; nor is it a given that this robotic society had been formed around a form of robotic brain that was anywhere near optimal.
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Was Star-Trek's Data motivated by cash?
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Nope, but then nobody else in Starfleet was either -- as the confederation was a money-free utopia. (No, that never made much sense to me either.)
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Could the Terminator be bought off?
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No, but he was neither sentient nor free-willed, so I don't think it makes sense to talk about him being "motivated" at all. (In the first movie, which I personally consider to be the only canon one, he couldn't even be said to be self-aware.)
What about Bender's motivations?
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Actually, most camera phones do have something that covers the lens, on mine, it's the back cover.
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Whether most do is debatable, but certainly some do, just as some don't. I'm amused by people latching onto the eyelid thing. The bigger question would be why do they have eyes?
Eyes as we understand them are only good for the visible range of the EM spectrum. Want to plumb further into the spectrum you need something else. Why would androids who clearly have combat capabilities want eyes? Surely they'd want something that offered more. Perhaps 360 degree vision, perhaps night vision, perhaps IR vision, the list goes on and on.
As I said, all of this is because we're TOLD they'd spent thousands of years evolving but we SEE no evidence of it.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Nope, but then nobody else in Starfleet was either -- as the confederation was a money-free utopia. (No, that never made much sense to me either.)
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Simple leif, they have an near perfect energy/matter cnverter, after you hav ethat, everything is easy to produce, in what ever qunitys you need.
other than that, spot on leif, with science fantasy you can make any assumuptions you like, becuse there is no basis for any of it, so it all can be true.
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Simple leif, they have an near perfect energy/matter cnverter, after you hav ethat, everything is easy to produce, in what ever qunitys you need.
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Except that they keep running out of stuff! How many times have one of the Enterprises been shuttling some mysterious goods from one place or another, or that they've needed some McGuffin to fix the techno-babble problem of the hour? How come they couldn't simply massively overpower their enemies in the various wars the federation has been involved in?
becuase they still rely on people to work stuff leif, it not a machine society, so while they no longer need money, they also still need highly trained people (who take along time to train) which is where it is taking licence, for instance Data is ment to be one of a very limited (3) nunber of accually intelligent systems, the other types of systems are mearly smart, not intelligent or capable of creativity.
but i really need to stop explaining/defending Star trek, it's got lots of holes. lots of huge gaping holes.
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Manufacturing capacity is only one factor limiting the availability of goods. Raw resources and energy, transportation capacity, people's time and even waste disposal capacity are other limiting factors. No matter how advanced a society becomes there will always be limitations.
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Energy and raw materials are a subset of manufacturing capability and as for people's time... we are talking about a machine society. No people are actually involved. If we imagine sentient machines then we must imagine less advanced machines that handle production. For some reason i can't see these androids donning a hard hat and working an assembly line 40 hours a week or running a bin lorry?!?
Manufacturing doesn't have to be infinite to be effectively infinite. Think about it. If televisions were 10p each. How many would you have? One in each room in your house? Less? The point being that its not just possible but PROBABLE that production capabilities in almost everything will outstrip demand. And you may live long enough to see that in our human society.
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That's a bold statement to make about another person's imaginary society.
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The point being, is that we're told almost nothing about the society. We're told the androids have spent thousands of years evolving... and apparently srill use cash?!? There's a disparity and if its deliberate it nees explaining.
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Just consider all the things a stone-age man would recognise in our own society: "You still need to eat? To sleep? You're still using knives? You still use rope? I thought you were advanced!"
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False argument. Stone age man is
A) Biological
B) The same species.
C) Didn't have money 
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A Roman citizen would probably say the same about our society.
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Our society ISN'T very advanced compared to Roman civilisation. They were the top civilisation of the time. Although we don't throw Christains to the lions anymore.
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Yes, but not in what ways. Technologically advanced? Philospohically advanced? Religiously? Political? Ethically?
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Correct. Why say it if you're not going to quantify it and then base you story on aspects that AREN'T advanced.
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Theoretically; in the same way that we can theoretically exchange text documents between computers without problems.
EBCDIC-ASCII conversion anyone? Ever tried opening an old Word document in a newer version? Latin-1 or Latin-8? Right-to-left or right-to-left? Carriage Return, Line Feed or both?
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Do I need to say the word "advanced" again? Thousands od years of machine evolution?!?
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Why? If a sentient robot brain is as complex as a human brain (which we can assume as it is sentient), training the robot brain might take just as much work as training the human brain. Just because it's artifical doesn't mean it's simple.
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No but it won't be limited by organic components. Simplicity is not an issue. The world's most powerful computers are arguably more complex than one human brain.
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I'm sure that after 1000 years of life a sentient robot would have come to the realisation that there is a difference between theory and practice. Simulations can only take you so far, after all.
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They were still simulating, just is a field.
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You're making a biiig unwarranted assumption there. Why must a sentient brain be greatly more efficent than a human brain? We don't know what limitations sentience and self-awareness operate under; nor is it a given that this robotic society had been formed around a form of robotic brain that was anywhere near optimal.
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Actually the limitations are well known; it's the materials used to make up our brain. First of all we're analog and chemical. Far inferior to digital and semi-conductors for shunting data (packets of electricity) around. Step that up to super-conductors, factor in a much higher evolutionary rate and 2000 years of development would suggest processing power many millions of times greater than a human. And remember, they overthrew humans in the first place. Whether they were optimal or not did they not tinker? Did they not advance themselves?
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No, but he was neither sentient nor free-willed, so I don't think it makes sense to talk about him being "motivated" at all.
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The terminator WAS sentient; that is implied by the shots from his PoV. Free will is illusionary. Humans have programmed limits as well. They're just as obvious or as pliable as the terminator's.
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(In the first movie, which I personally consider to be the only canon one, he couldn't even be said to be self-aware.)
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Of course he could. You got to see through his eyes. What more proof do you need? 
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What about Bender's motivations?
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Touche.
Bottom line is this; we're tols these machine wer uber-advanced and yet we saw no evidence of this. So, what was the point in telling us in the first place? Why tell us they've been advancing for thousands of years? What does it get you other than a lot of preconceptions that you're not going to deal with.
If would be better if the author implied the parallel universe (or not, I wouldn't) and left it there. Who cares about the past couple thousand years? Does it have any bearing on the story? Doesn't seem to, so then a big old knife can be taken to it.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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other than that, spot on leif, with science fantasy you can make any assumuptions you like, becuse there is no basis for any of it, so it all can be true.
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You can if you're not worried about the quality of your story. Which I assume the OP is. A *good* story requires the reader to maintain suspension of disbelief. If you're going to have two notions that apparently run contrary to one another then you have to explain it rather than just rely of the reader accepting it.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Nope, but then nobody else in Starfleet was either -- as the confederation was a money-free utopia. (No, that never made much sense to me either.)
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Leif, if you haven't, I suggest you read Iain M Banks' sci-fi novels. There you will find a society run by hyper-intelligent computers. There is no money, everyone does what they like within the confines of rules designed to stop people hurting each other. Humans are actually pretty much there because the robots like them as a distraction. They do, however, prove useful because humans can do some things that robots can't, and interact with other societies better than the robots do (especially societies that don't like robot brains).
It's all very well worked out, and I agree with Inny on this, there wouldn't be any need for money in any reasonably well structured, "highly advanced" society.
Of course, I'm reminded of Mars Attacks! "They are, clearly, highly intelligent and, therefore, peaceful." Yeah, right. 
Beet! I think I know what your problem is, you lack patience. This is definately better than your first piece, but I think the problem is that you want to get it written down and out there when you should be taking your time.
What I'd suggest is the following:
* Read more. Get books, read them. Don't just read the story, examine how the author has crafted their text. The secret of good creative writing is figuring out how good creative writers actually write and doing the same in your own style.
* Take more time at writing. Use adjectives, adverbs, longer sentences, pointless description. Tell us the robots "swarmed over the hills like a horde of angry bees". Describe how "the General's sword cut swathes through the massed, metallic ranks."
So, read more, take your time. You'll get better. I did.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
the story is made in a way that commander beet would tell it to someone, but many things will be answered in later stories, if, after seeing the replies from the last two stories i did (and one which i didnt get any replies to) i can gather the courage to check it through the put it up.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
I could write a story featuring faster-than-light starships powered by steam engines. Complete with coal bunkers and people shovelling the stuff into furnaces. Hey, they is science fantasy, I can do anything I want and no one could argue right?
When writing sci-fi you need to be mindful of people preconceptions. Will people readily accept computers thousands of years more advanced than the ones we have now to be slower? Of COURSE they will, PROVIDING you explain the reasons behind that.
Present us with an android, tell us its from thousands of years in the future people will expect certain things from it.
I'll give an example. There's a scene in the new series of Battlestar Galactica where you see Lee Adama using a tape recorder. This jarred quite badly considering we'll see them relegated to the museum within a few years and yet we can't build gaint spaceships that can travel faster than light.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
Fair enough, then tell us the story based on the things Beet would find important. His brother's head is blown off and he doesn't give a monkeys. He shoots his killer and sets off without a backward glance. Why doesn't he care that his brother is dead? Don't androids feel anything? Surely his brothers rates more of a mention.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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I'll give an example. There's a scene in the new series of Battlestar Galactica where you see Lee Adama using a tape recorder. This jarred quite badly considering we'll see them relegated to the museum within a few years and yet we can't build gaint spaceships that can travel faster than light.
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That would be you not paying attention to the setting, Inny.
There's a very solid reason why the systems in the new BG are... archaic, it means the Cylons can't remotely take control of them and turn them against the humans. it's actually fully explained in the (very good) pilot episode.
It might jar with your expectations, but it's supposed to, and it is logical.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Leif, if you haven't, I suggest you read Iain M Banks' sci-fi novels.
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Read 'em all, and they're very, very good. I'm not saying that an advanced society must have money, but that an advanced society must not not have money. (My comment on it not making sense was specific to Star Trek and the way it's been presented there, and shouldn't be seen as a general attack on moneyfree utopias in Sci-fi.)
Besides, I think part of why The Culture works as an utopia is the scale. It's just so big, and the Minds so advanced and numerous that any reasonable desire any human has can be filled without any real strain on the system. I'm not sure the same necessarily is true for any reasonable desire of a Minds. A reasonable desire for a GSV is not going to be the same as a reasonable desire of a 6' man.
(Now, in my opinion, the really fun thing about Culture is how all its high ideals and pure ethicts are only made possible by the buffer of concentrated hypocrisy that is Special Circumstances.)
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Of course, I'm reminded of Mars Attacks! "They are, clearly, highly intelligent and, therefore, peaceful." Yeah, right.
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"We come in peace! Do not run. We are your friends."
... Now I want to make an alien alt in CoH with that as his battle-cry.
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I could write a story featuring faster-than-light starships powered by steam engines. Complete with coal bunkers and people shovelling the stuff into furnaces.
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I'd read it. (For a story with steam-powered cybernetics, check out Perdido Street Station.)
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A reasonable desire for a GSV is not going to be the same as a reasonable desire of a 6' man.
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True, but I always feel the Minds have more sense than to want more than they can have.
(GSVs, for those who don't know the stories, are space ships the size of small moons which act as the 'mobile homes' for the robotic Minds. A GSV is quite capable of demolishing a planet.)
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(Now, in my opinion, the really fun thing about Culture is how all its high ideals and pure ethicts are only made possible by the buffer of concentrated hypocrisy that is Special Circumstances.)
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True, but then you can think of The Culture is being like pure science. Pure science is great, unfortunately it rarely ever actually works without a buffer of practical science between it and the real world. With The Culture, the 'real world' is everywhere outside of The Culture.
PS. When I said humans earlier, btw, I didn't mean it. The 'common' race in The Culture are not human and don't come from Earth. They do look humanoid and can be sergically altered to look like humans quite easily. There's a short story where The Culture discovers 20th Century (-ish) Earth.
Shall we got this back on topic now?
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
what do you think of this one;
It all started in the war. You see, I come from another dimension which is populated by living metal. Humans were wiped out by the androids they build to help them. The androids evolved... Several millenia had passed, they had become more advanced then the human species could've ever had imagined: teleportation, holographical beings, levitation ect.
It all changed one day, that day that it all went wrong. Me and my friends were training in the battle fields when a 'Blue Conqueror' android came along and blew the head off of my brother's shoulders. I shot him in the chest instantly causing him to explode. Then I looked over the hills, thousands upon thousands of those androids were charging right at the city, and we were the only thing between them.
A grand battle began, all of our kind against this new breed of androids. We were heavily outnumbered, but with my companions, General Ryno with his sword and the magnes's with their magnetism abilities, we kept our grounds and protected the city. Upon examining them, we found that they had a disease that made them attack anything that looked slightly different than themselves, even a scratch would make them see you as an enemy.
We travelled across the land, trying to take out as many of the 'Blue Conquerors' as we could, while searching for a cure to this virus to stop all of the fighting. We finally found this cure when we came to a small facility on the outskirts of the void, a large hole from which nobody has ever returned. We created the antivirus and went to the main transmitter and sent it to every 'Blue Conqueror' on the planet, it worked, we were safe... for now.
276 years passed, I'm still alive, even though living past my expiary date which was 1000 years (I'm now 1671 years old) and all of the survivors of the first war have been imbuned with powers and have been made the rulers of this planet, known as the Elders. Casualties have been made since the war though, General Ryno was assasinated by a Splicer when the Splicer was offered a 25 million credit bounty for his head. The magnes have gone into hiding, still havn't found them and a new robot has entered the scene, which looked strangely familiar.
BOOM, a large explosion errupted from the Elder's tower. I'm not sure if they died or escaped. Yet, thousands of new and improved 'Blue Conquerors' emerged from the rubble, which used to be the Elders tower. I got ready, aimed and fired. Several of them were hit with one blast. They found me, I ran and ran but couldn't outrun them, so up I went. I flew as far as I could away from them, they can only jump not fly I told myself. Then there was a blurr, I closed my eyes as several minutes passed, when I opened them there was a strange tall muscular being infront of me.
"Who are you?" I asked?
"I'm the Back Ally Brawler."
i have checked it over several times to make sure there werent any spelling mistakes or grammar problems, so its most likely still full of them. the original version of this can be found here, under ranger profiles -> commander beet -> commander beet's origin
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc