Another problem with that is the whole "goose vs gander" thing. If mobs get this "debuff" then so would players and I can't see that going over too well.
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Flag it so that it "greys" below 75% end. for nukes I think you cannot use them below 50%
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Yes you can, you can use a nuke with 12ish endurance if you slotted it for max end reduction.
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90% effectiveness vs Not getting hit by it at all...hmn
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When every other attack they can do is dealing less damage as well.
Hmm, so they can miss with knockout blow, and still be dealing less damage with their other attacks? No, that couldn't ever happen either...
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not every aspect, seeing as without -rec, they just get strong again
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Um, so you're saying things like the damage debuff from fulcrum shift and the -to hit of fearsome stare and every control in the game is flawed because the enemies can recover back from it? Yeah, good one...
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
Thats not true dark. There are lots of situations where things work differently for NPC than they do for players. This would of course be an NPC only change.
And DRmike. It wouldnt need to be a damage buff applied to the end drain attacks. While it *could* be done, what about powers that also do just -recovery like drain psyche.
For those very very few enemies that actually concsistently drain themselves. They could either do the simple change they did for lts/bosses and give them a higher base max end, or make their attacks use less.
Considering end drain works on a % basis i'd imagine simply increasing their max end would be more appropriate.
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
end drain works just fine on its own its somthing your toon has to skot for a lil less dmg for the fact the enimes cant atk as much i did the itf last nite we had me an elec blaster and elec brute and a third elec i forget what but the mobs never had end so the spent thier time running aroud waiting got that 1 atk even the EB's had this problem. but thats with 3 ele types you need to be able to do this all the time with just 1 toon the end drain dont help u much when they die 2 sec l8er it huts pc's cuz it slows down the next battle but is to short lived an effect for battles that last 5sec....
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Yes you can, you can use a nuke with 12ish endurance if you slotted it for max end reduction.
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thats not the point, and why would you do that?
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When every other attack they can do is dealing less damage as well.
Hmm, so they can miss with knockout blow, and still be dealing less damage with their other attacks? No, that couldn't ever happen either...
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Lets look at it this way:
Ko Blow on a boss does 1000 damage, and Jab will do lets say 250
Reduce it by 90% and it becomes 900 and 225
Using your method, we would be hit for 1125 damage
If KO Blow didnt become a factor: 250 damage
Hmn....
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Um, so you're saying things like the damage debuff from fulcrum shift and the -to hit of fearsome stare and every control in the game is flawed because the enemies can recover back from it? Yeah, good one...
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what a horrid example. Unlike those debuffs, something tied to endurance IS FLAWED because NPCs RECOVER their END. So unlike fulcrum shift's debuff, where it just stays static, a dam debuff attached to endurance will allways fluctuate because as the enemy recovers END, it gets stronger
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end drain works just fine on its own its somthing your toon has to skot for a lil less dmg for the fact the enimes cant atk as much i did the itf last nite we had me an elec blaster and elec brute and a third elec i forget what but the mobs never had end so the spent thier time running aroud waiting got that 1 atk even the EB's had this problem. but thats with 3 ele types you need to be able to do this all the time with just 1 toon the end drain dont help u much when they die 2 sec l8er it huts pc's cuz it slows down the next battle but is to short lived an effect for battles that last 5sec....
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Oh yeah, a group of Elec's can do wonderful things. The Repeat Offenders network has a group "Dont Whiz on the Electric Fence" who form superteams of end drainers.
I think I heard that they drained Lusca once?
Come to think of it, me and a PUG member drained the Winter Lord once, I think, me on my Kin/Elec Defender, and he was an Electric/something Blaster.
But you're right - with one drainer the damage always outpaces the end drain.
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thats not the point, and why would you do that?
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Because that was the point. You said you can't nuke if your end is below 50%, i was disproving that.
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Lets look at it this way:
Ko Blow on a boss does 1000 damage, and Jab will do lets say 250
Reduce it by 90% and it becomes 900 and 225
Using your method, we would be hit for 1125 damage
If KO Blow didnt become a factor: 250 damage
Hmn....
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Because my change is a consistent mechanic across the entire game, without nitpicking certain powers and putting restrictions on EVERY enemy in the game.
Its a simple mechanic to help out endurance draining powers. Yours is an entire reworking of all NPC's AI's. Lets think about which is more plausible.
Not to mention the scale. Say a blaster uses short circuit. While my scenario would still be useful, slotted lets say taking their damage down to 75% damage.
Yours taking out KB is a much more significant hit to the NPC, especially considering mezzing effects being taken out by this.
There is no way in your scenario it would make enough sense to gimp the NPC that fast. Then we get into the already pre-ordained logic, where feasably taking the KB out of the picture, is already going to be close to where they barely have enough end to use it in the first place.
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what a horrid example. Unlike those debuffs, something tied to endurance IS FLAWED because NPCs RECOVER their END.
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They also recover from mez effects and debuffs EXACTLY THE SAME, just not gradually.
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So unlike fulcrum shift's debuff, where it just stays static, a dam debuff attached to endurance will allways fluctuate because as the enemy recovers END, it gets stronger
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And that is a problem why? Its a debuff, and is better than what we have now. So what if it fluctuates. That just means you'll want to work to keep their end down.
And it would more turn out to how you calculate DPS.
Its not that its "stronger this time than at that time" You'll look at the average -damage effect you'll be getting out of it overall.
That's like saying knockout blow is better at taking out bosses than haymaker.
It may be a bigger hit first, but haymaker wins out because its DPS(average) means that its more damage in the time it takes to take out the boss.
So while were not saying its going to be, or should be a better debuff than a straight damage debuff power like FS or poison gas arrow, the validity of this change would be well worth implimenting.
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what I was asking is why would you slot a nuke with 3 end redux, it drains 100% end regardless...
and no, it doesnt work the way you are describing:
The debuffs you mentioned are set in stone, X debuff for Y time
a -dam applied to end drain would be the same as it is now: binary, either you drain alot at once, or it is too little to worth mentioning
Not to mention, this would do the following:
Make Electric armor the bar-none best armor due to having a technical perfect resistance to all damage. (in a normal encounter at the least)
Make enemies weaken themselves as they fight, seeing as they DO use some end in a fight (at least in a solo encounter).
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end drain works just fine on its own its somthing your toon has to skot for a lil less dmg for the fact the enimes cant atk as much i did the itf last nite we had me an elec blaster and elec brute and a third elec i forget what but the mobs never had end so the spent thier time running aroud waiting got that 1 atk even the EB's had this problem. but thats with 3 ele types you need to be able to do this all the time with just 1 toon the end drain dont help u much when they die 2 sec l8er it huts pc's cuz it slows down the next battle but is to short lived an effect for battles that last 5sec....
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Oh yeah, a group of Elec's can do wonderful things. The Repeat Offenders network has a group "Dont Whiz on the Electric Fence" who form superteams of end drainers.
I think I heard that they drained Lusca once?
Come to think of it, me and a PUG member drained the Winter Lord once, I think, me on my Kin/Elec Defender, and he was an Electric/something Blaster.
But you're right - with one drainer the damage always outpaces the end drain.
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so when do these end drain groups meet id luv to put my toon in that group
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what I was asking is why would you slot a nuke with 3 end redux, it drains 100% end regardless...
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WOW you STILL missed what i was saying. I was just proving how little endurance you could possibly need to fire one off, because you said it could only be done above 50% endurance.
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Make Electric armor the bar-none best armor due to having a technical perfect resistance to all damage. (in a normal encounter at the least)
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As long as they are in range and stay there and you keep your powers slotted with end drain. And perfect? No Enemies still resist more as they scale up in level just like any other resistance/-resistance will apply on them.
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Make enemies weaken themselves as they fight, seeing as they DO use some end in a fight (at least in a solo encounter).
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I can count on one hand the number of enemies i've actually seen use more endurance then they recover at any given time. This is hardly an issue, and seeing how end drains are % based, is easily fixed by increasing their max end and lowering their recovery a bit.
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a -dam applied to end drain would be the same as it is now: binary, either you drain alot at once, or it is too little to worth mentioning
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How do you figure? If you are stacking end drain, or in my other scenario of more max end but less recovery for NPCs, youll be chunking with them slowly as they attack. 10% -damage would be fairly easy to obtain with a couple hits of a normal elec attack which seems worth it to me. And the big drianers would have even more value on their own.
If the end drain was "too little to mention" then it would'nt be near enough to reach the amount needed in your KB scenario either.
I fail to see how an average 10-25% -damage on the enemies is not worth mentioning.
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
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and no, it doesnt work the way you are describing:
The debuffs you mentioned are set in stone, X debuff for Y time
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wow, i don't think you even came CLOSE to understanding what i was saying when i was relating the DPS calculation to how this debuff would work...
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
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end drain works just fine on its own its somthing your toon has to skot for a lil less dmg for the fact the enimes cant atk as much i did the itf last nite we had me an elec blaster and elec brute and a third elec i forget what but the mobs never had end so the spent thier time running aroud waiting got that 1 atk even the EB's had this problem. but thats with 3 ele types you need to be able to do this all the time with just 1 toon the end drain dont help u much when they die 2 sec l8er it huts pc's cuz it slows down the next battle but is to short lived an effect for battles that last 5sec....
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Oh yeah, a group of Elec's can do wonderful things. The Repeat Offenders network has a group "Dont Whiz on the Electric Fence" who form superteams of end drainers.
I think I heard that they drained Lusca once?
Come to think of it, me and a PUG member drained the Winter Lord once, I think, me on my Kin/Elec Defender, and he was an Electric/something Blaster.
But you're right - with one drainer the damage always outpaces the end drain.
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I was on a GM PuG yesterday with my elec/elec. Myself, another elec blaster, and a kin drained both Eochai and Jack dry in just a few seconds. They stood there twitching until they were defeated. (I took some screenies but my screenshotui was off. 
)
Having seen what a PuG can do, I have no doubt a specialized team could drain Lusca.
^ Ive solo-drained lusca with my elec/3 
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end drain works just fine on its own its somthing your toon has to skot for a lil less dmg for the fact the enimes cant atk as much i did the itf last nite we had me an elec blaster and elec brute and a third elec i forget what but the mobs never had end so the spent thier time running aroud waiting got that 1 atk even the EB's had this problem. but thats with 3 ele types you need to be able to do this all the time with just 1 toon the end drain dont help u much when they die 2 sec l8er it huts pc's cuz it slows down the next battle but is to short lived an effect for battles that last 5sec....
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Oh yeah, a group of Elec's can do wonderful things. The Repeat Offenders network has a group "Dont Whiz on the Electric Fence" who form superteams of end drainers.
I think I heard that they drained Lusca once?
Come to think of it, me and a PUG member drained the Winter Lord once, I think, me on my Kin/Elec Defender, and he was an Electric/something Blaster.
But you're right - with one drainer the damage always outpaces the end drain.
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so when do these end drain groups meet id luv to put my toon in that group
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They've got a website here, Captain, with details of their global channel and so on.
http://www.repeat-offenders.net/
I've never actually run with them, what with being both an Australian resident and somewhat solitary, but I've seen the occasional member and heard of their exploits.
thanks ill check it out at the house. well good day then mate. and your more than welcome to look up lemming if ur on guardian
I thought Electric Blast also returned endurance to the caster sometimes?
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I thought Electric Blast also returned endurance to the caster sometimes?
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The single target attacks do. Charged Bolts has a 30% chance to give you back 2.6 end, Lightning Bolt has a 30% chance to give you back 4.27 end, Zapp has a 30% chance to give you back 7.2 end, and Tesla Cage has a 30% chance to give you back 3.43 end.
just right click and veiw details it gives u the numbers there thats y its called an end efficent toon u sometimes get back an amount u drain like firing for free almost
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If the devs made drains stronger, you'd be able to lockdown anything in seconds with little work. As it stands now... your elec/elec needs to animate a 4 second Short Circuit and then use Power Sink to fully drain mobs. The Elec/Nrg has to use SC with Power Boost followed by Ball Lightning to drain an even level mob.
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Lets keep something in mind, back when you could one shot drain a group of end, it was by no means an instant-win button. There was still plenty of risk inherent with that strategy because you were in pbaoe range. It may take a little effort to take all their end, but it took a lot of effort to keep them there and kill the group before they started unloading on you. One mistep, or unlucky misses, and you faceplant.
IMO the issue then is similar to what is now, the disparity between the varying levels of power an Elec blaster could achieve was and is dependent on the secondary. Stick to /nrg or /elec and all will be right with the world.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
The better solution, in my opinion, would be to alter the AI to account for percent level of endurance. Lower levels of endurance would either encourage or force the critter to use weaker attacks. It wouldn't do anything to make the critter completely incapable of dealing damage, but it would actually give a tangible defensive benefit to end drain, especially since it would work at variable levels of endurance.
That's an interesting idea, making END Drain behave like a damage debuff.
There's the problem of working out how much end has been lost from actually using attacks vs how much has been lost due to end drain. This is particularly relevant with Architect custom enemies whose attacks do use apppreicable end.
So it would probably work best just as a damage debuff attached to the end draining attack.
There's still the Short Circuit problem even with this change. The debuff would affect bosses and minions alike. If you make it powerful enough to affect one minion significantly, it's also powerful enough to affect multiple bosses just as much. If you made the damage debuff too powerful, you start treading on the toes of Dark, Sonic or Kinetics users, and also have to consider how these Defenders could stack damage debuffs or resistance from their primary with this secondary effect.
I'd alos apply this argument to any suggestion that the set as a whole can be fixed by improving Short Circuit via animation time. As an AoE it will always fall between being too powerful becuase it neutralises multiple bosses, and too weak because it can't drain a single minion.