The Most Well-Rounded Secondary (Nin, Regen, WP?)
By
Chrome_Family,
Posted on: 2009-06-13 20:53 in Stalkers
Well regen has no perception so you can get blinded and can't see stealth in pvp/pve. Most that pvp take tactics to make up for it.
Ninjitsu is all defense and defense got nerfed in pvp in i14, However my em/nin is still doing well. I have hibernation, teir 9, and demonic accolade. So he has ways to avoid spike damage. In PvE they are plenty fun and you get a self heal.
Will power is prolly the best bet for a combination set that can pvp and pve just fine. Has some resistance and defense and perception and a click heal.
Depending on how tight your build is and what primary your going with will determine what mesh's best with your play style 
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
What type of PvP?
Not that it matters too much. While /nin isn't bad for zone PvP, /WP is probably the best all around for what you're looking for
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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What type of PvP?
Not that it matters too much. While /nin isn't bad for zone PvP, /WP is probably the best all around for what you're looking for
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I would imagine mostly Arena duels. Willpower just seems like such an odd set. It doesn't seem like it excels at anything, managing moderate regeneration, with defense/resistance mixed in. How does this perform in real-life tests?
You also have to factor in patron powers too. You can take hibernation if your a Nin and SR, and shadow meld to up your defense if your a WP or Regen. These two patrons round out the options you listed.
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
WP is the arena set of choice. It offers a strong heal, resistance to effects like repel, has perception, easily capped HP, and is very sturdy. Regen could rival it in one on one situations most of the time, but is still lacking a few things /WP has.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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What type of PvP?
Not that it matters too much. While /nin isn't bad for zone PvP, /WP is probably the best all around for what you're looking for
[/ QUOTE ]
I would imagine mostly Arena duels. Willpower just seems like such an odd set. It doesn't seem like it excels at anything, managing moderate regeneration, with defense/resistance mixed in. How does this perform in real-life tests?
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Very well. It's basically the "I wanna be an invisible Scrapper that crits on command" set. The reason that Willpower doesn't excel at anything is because it doesn't need to, it's a layercaked set that does a little of everything well and the effects cascade to produce a rather durable set that ranges from good to great. The only real differences between the Stalker version and the version for other classes is no Quick Recovery, but one less toggle sucking down Endurance since you get Reconstruction instead of Rise to the Challenge.
However it should be noted that that set isn't really anything super special, it's very durable and can take alot of abuse, but it doesn't have toys like Ninjitsu, defense is somewhat limited compared to other sets meaning pulling off timed ASes is a bit trickier than with Super Reflexes, Energy Aura or Ninjitsu, and the set, like all other versions, while it may have a very high level of standard performance, it doesn't get a spike of power most other sets get in the form of a powerful T9. Basically it's just a good all around choice that makes a durable Stalker that doesn't take alot of effort to play.
As far as PvP goes, just stay out of it. PvPers and rude and intolerable, and MMO PvP is all about excessive metagaming and is a huge gank fest. Unless you are an OMG SUPAR SERIAL PVPER you'll just end up being cannon fodder to some guy with 10 billion inf worth of IOs who cares about little more than getting rep, even if he got it from someone who was clearly outgunned and outnumbered. If you want to play against enemy players, play a First Person Shooter or something, TF2 is a good choice if you enjoy rock/paper/scissors gameplay.
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As far as PvP goes, just stay out of it. PvPers and rude and intolerable, and MMO PvP is all about excessive metagaming and is a huge gank fest. Unless you are an OMG SUPAR SERIAL PVPER you'll just end up being cannon fodder to some guy with 10 billion inf worth of IOs who cares about little more than getting rep, even if he got it from someone who was clearly outgunned and outnumbered. If you want to play against enemy players, play a First Person Shooter or something, TF2 is a good choice if you enjoy rock/paper/scissors gameplay.
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The irony is hilarious. Here's some other great examples of this guy's insight to PvP.
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01-15-2008 02:02:33 [Help] Xao Garrent: Stalkers need a PvP nerf
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01-15-2008 02:37:08 [Help] Xao Garrent: Because I can pound 3 stalkers with my 1 katana reflexes if they are on my level
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and one of my favorites
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01-15-2008 02:19:49 [Help] Xao Garrent: Dude, wake the hell up, insps in PvP zones are not a solution to any problem
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Yeah, I wouldn't listen to the guy who claims to hate stalkers and PvP in this game about anything having to do with stalkers and PvP.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as PvP goes, just stay out of it. PvPers and rude and intolerable, and MMO PvP is all about excessive metagaming and is a huge gank fest. Unless you are an OMG SUPAR SERIAL PVPER you'll just end up being cannon fodder to some guy with 10 billion inf worth of IOs who cares about little more than getting rep, even if he got it from someone who was clearly outgunned and outnumbered. If you want to play against enemy players, play a First Person Shooter or something, TF2 is a good choice if you enjoy rock/paper/scissors gameplay.
[/ QUOTE ]
The irony is hilarious. Here's some other great examples of this guy's insight to PvP.
[ QUOTE ]
01-15-2008 02:02:33 [Help] Xao Garrent: Stalkers need a PvP nerf
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
01-15-2008 02:37:08 [Help] Xao Garrent: Because I can pound 3 stalkers with my 1 katana reflexes if they are on my level
[/ QUOTE ]
and one of my favorites
[ QUOTE ]
01-15-2008 02:19:49 [Help] Xao Garrent: Dude, wake the hell up, insps in PvP zones are not a solution to any problem
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I wouldn't listen to the guy who claims to hate stalkers and PvP in this game about anything having to do with stalkers and PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh wow, great job there taking stuff out of context from logs that are well over a year old that I don't even have because I don't bother to even use the logging feature but once in a blue moon.
Heck, even if I did I wouldn't have backed them up during my regular reformats because I don't have weird sociopathic preoccupations. So yeah, way to go showing a potential PvP recruit just what kind of people participate in your little world, he's going to feel awfully great knowing people like you keep logs on everyone. Bravo, bravo.
But in all seriousness, I'm both a little amused and a little creeped out you have logs on me and you knew just where and what to find. What did I say that was so jarring you felt the need to find and stock up ammunition against me? Or do you REALLY keep logs on everyone?
Oh, and for the record, I love Stalkers since the PvE buff, I'm now on my 3rd one, at least if you don't count the ones I deleted pre-buff. They are now as survivable as Scrappers when played correctly and can put out solid burst and DPS. And Issue 15 is bringing some PvE Dom buffs, looks like I may have to revisit some abandoned concepts.
So... ...what is Issue 15 doing for you PvPers? Bet you got some cool buffs, rrrrriiiiigggght...? 
In any case, I have a level 43 EM/Willpower Stalker, so I know what the crap I'm talking about. He soloed Johnny Sonata as an AV with the help of purples and the Willpower Self Res.
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As far as PvP goes, just stay out of it. PvPers and rude and intolerable, and MMO PvP is all about excessive metagaming and is a huge gank fest. Unless you are an OMG SUPAR SERIAL PVPER you'll just end up being cannon fodder to some guy with 10 billion inf worth of IOs who cares about little more than getting rep, even if he got it from someone who was clearly outgunned and outnumbered. If you want to play against enemy players, play a First Person Shooter or something, TF2 is a good choice if you enjoy rock/paper/scissors gameplay.
[/ QUOTE ]
The irony is hilarious. Here's some other great examples of this guy's insight to PvP.
[ QUOTE ]
01-15-2008 02:02:33 [Help] Xao Garrent: Stalkers need a PvP nerf
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
01-15-2008 02:37:08 [Help] Xao Garrent: Because I can pound 3 stalkers with my 1 katana reflexes if they are on my level
[/ QUOTE ]
and one of my favorites
[ QUOTE ]
01-15-2008 02:19:49 [Help] Xao Garrent: Dude, wake the hell up, insps in PvP zones are not a solution to any problem
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I wouldn't listen to the guy who claims to hate stalkers and PvP in this game about anything having to do with stalkers and PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh wow, great job there taking stuff out of context from logs that are well over a year old that I don't even have because I don't bother to even use the logging feature but once in a blue moon.
Heck, even if I did I wouldn't have backed them up during my regular reformats because I don't have weird sociopathic preoccupations. So yeah, way to go showing a potential PvP recruit just what kind of people participate in your little world, he's going to feel awfully great knowing people like you keep logs on everyone. Bravo, bravo.
But in all seriousness, I'm both a little amused and a little creeped out you have logs on me and you knew just where and what to find. What did I say that was so jarring you felt the need to find and stock up ammunition against me? Or do you REALLY keep logs on everyone?
Oh, and for the record, I love Stalkers since the PvE buff, I'm now on my 3rd one, at least if you don't count the ones I deleted pre-buff. They are now as survivable as Scrappers when played correctly and can put out solid burst and DPS. And Issue 15 is bringing some PvE Dom buffs, looks like I may have to revisit some abandoned concepts.
So... ...what is Issue 15 doing for you PvPers? Bet you got some cool buffs, rrrrriiiiigggght...?
In any case, I have a level 43 EM/Willpower Stalker, so I know what the crap I'm talking about. He soloed Johnny Sonata as an AV with the help of purples and the Willpower Self Res.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, you're the one insulting a group of people without provocation, not me. If they want to read the full log that those excerpts were taken from, they can do so here.
And keeping logs on everyone? No, just the people who show they have no idea what they're talking about. It's less of a "hey, keep tabs on that guy" and more of a "wow, look at what that idiot was saying in /help".
And get back to us when you solo some REAL AV's. Taking the weakest example and saying "lookit me!" doesn't do much for your credibility.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
Hey, you're the one insulting a group of people without provocation, not me. If they want to read the full log that those excerpts were taken from, they can do so here.
And keeping logs on everyone? No, just the people who show they have no idea what they're talking about. It's less of a "hey, keep tabs on that guy" and more of a "wow, look at what that idiot was saying in /help".
And get back to us when you solo some REAL AV's. Taking the weakest example and saying "lookit me!" doesn't do much for your credibility.
[/ QUOTE ]
First off, pointing out that Johnny Sonota isn't that big bad of an AV doesn't really do much for your credibility when we are talking about a level 39 Stalker running on generic ("Other" category) IOs. That's pretty damn good, especially considering the AV debuffs resistance pretty hard. Well, if he can hit consistently.
Secondly, I had almost forgotten about that conversation. I still find that people took that whole thing seriously funny, the whole time I'm mixing honest to god statements with complete and total nonsense, I even dragged it out and made my accusations more and more outragious the entire time and no one caught on. Some people from my Villain group at the time thought it absolutely hillarious and started egging me on via PMs and giving me things to say. It's not the first time I've pulled that crap with a bunch of ZOMG SERIAL PvPers in Help and I haven't done it in a loooong time because people never caught on and thus it ceased being funny. That and certain things have happened since then that have really fired up my hatred for PvPers.
What you fail to realize is you have no idea whether I was ever provoked by PvPers. And the fact is, I have been, both by people like them and them specifically. I've kicked plenty of them from Super Groups for causing all manner of stupidity, especially since CELESTIAL Elite went down the tubes just as I had gotten all the basics in the base and was beginning to maintain some active players. We had regular groupings 3 days a week and I was going to do some task force stuff on weekends when I had time. Unfortunately, pretty much half the Super Group left over, none the less, PvP Drama, go figure. And the worse part was this all went down when I was away for roughly a month, and the person whom I left in charge didn't seem to understand what the kick button was, decided to take a break from the game the same time I did, and caused everyone to effectively think I had abandoned ship, By the time I came back what was left of my SG was completely idle. I didn't even know there was ZOMG SERIOUS PVPARS in my group, guess I shouldn't have made is so anyone but the lowest rank could invite, huh? To make things worse I think one of the guys that started all the trouble was a guy I had kicked from the group earlier for the same kind of behavior, on an alt.
You also need to keep in mind not everyone shares your ideology about how the game should play, be played, nor how hard, easy or involved or relaxed it should be. Otherwise, everyone would PvP like you do, and the PvP zones would be as active as normal PvE. The problem here is, you are indeed the minority, and while I do agree that the devs made a bad choice in trying to fix something for a majority that has no interest in it, it doesn't change the fact that you are still the minority and the devs are going to *try* to adjust their game to suit the largest number of people possible. I actually like alot of the changes myself, however they wont bring me to PvP with the attitudes that exist there, and pretty much the rest of my opinion can be summed up by what is currently in my sig. If you think you've seen stupid on help from me, you obviously haven't seen some of the I'M QUITTING stuff that popped up on various servers shortly after the PvP changes hit Open Beta, which was in no way satirical. They were met with a nearly unanimous "GOOD RIDDANCE."
Anyway, we've outright derailed this guys thread, and probably served to do little more than confuse him. So I'm done bickering, I'm just going to ignore any further bull hockey that heads my way. I'm considering the source here, and seeing as you valiantly come here to defend the honor of PvP, the source of some of the most belligerent people I've had the displeasure to team with, I honestly don't see eye to eye with you and I wont.
BACK TO THE POINT OF THIS THREAD
In any case, we've brought up a number of good builds here, some by humorous proxy, including EM/Nin, EM/Willpower and of coarse Ninja Blade isn't too bad paired with either. Ninja Blade is basically a Katana clone, so you get a fast DPS set with a couple of bursty attacks and a parry, one of the best things in the game as far as mitigation in primaries goes. Ninjitsu is just never a bad choice, it's one of those Dark Armor style sets where half the set is enough to make up all the defenses you need regularly and everything else is a bit overkill, either for spice or for when things get rough. Mind you, Dark Armor is just horrible on Stalkers. Don't even think about it.
Personally I would suggest something a bit more spicy, such as an Elec Melee of some sort. Elec Melee/Ninjitsu seems to be a popular choice since the gadgets provide the extra mitigation and synergy needed to fully unleash the sets AoE capacity. So if you are looking for something that rips a mob apart with random crits that do doubles of triple digit damage in addition to the natural single target damage that all stalkers have via AS, it's a good choice. Still, go EM/Willpower if you just want something solid that flies and does what Stalkers are intended to do well. It can be a bit endurance hungry at some points in it's life, though, but even with the increased animation of ET, and mag nerf of TF, it's still one of the hardest hitting sets in the game with good mitigation, and suits the Stalker playstyle almost too well. So it makes up for it it's few downsides elsewhere. Critting TF and ET will one shot most minions, as will AS, and when used in rapid succession on a boss or LT the results are spectacular, even if the animations are a bit lengthy.
Really what is it that you are going for here? If you absolutely must have PvPability Energy Melee is the clear winner here since it does exactly what you need it to do, and hit's hard. But if you don't mind sacrificing some of that or downright forgetting about it, you can come up with alot more of an interesting build. Like I said, Elec Melee is an AoE set, even on Stalkers, which is interesting on an AT geared towards ST damage, and it's still less resisted.
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/psypunk
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If someone insulted you, then it's that person who insulted you. Insulting PvP'ers because you have a problem with someone is terribly short-sighted and ignorant. Trying to give advice after showing that you A) don't know what you're talking about and B) like to screw around with people looking for help does very little to make you look better than the "rude" PvP'ers you love to demonize.
The OP has been given some ideas from myself and others experienced in PvP with stalkers. If they'd like to, they are free to ask in the PvP guides and Arena sections to verify what we've said with other PvP'ers.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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The OP has been given some ideas from myself and [u]others[u] experienced in PvP with stalkers. If they'd like to, they are free to ask in the PvP guides and Arena sections to verify what we've said with other PvP'ers.
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When you say others....
<.<
>.>
are you talking about me? 
LOL 
thought I would spread some light on this thread
To the OP what ever you choose pick a patron that compliments it
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
Yes, you!
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey, you're the one insulting a group of people without provocation, not me. If they want to read the full log that those excerpts were taken from, they can do so here.
And keeping logs on everyone? No, just the people who show they have no idea what they're talking about. It's less of a "hey, keep tabs on that guy" and more of a "wow, look at what that idiot was saying in /help".
And get back to us when you solo some REAL AV's. Taking the weakest example and saying "lookit me!" doesn't do much for your credibility.
[/ QUOTE ]
First off, pointing out that Johnny Sonota isn't that big bad of an AV doesn't really do much for your credibility when we are talking about a level 39 Stalker running on generic ("Other" category) IOs. That's pretty damn good, especially considering the AV debuffs resistance pretty hard. Well, if he can hit consistently.
Secondly, I had almost forgotten about that conversation. I still find that people took that whole thing seriously funny, the whole time I'm mixing honest to god statements with complete and total nonsense, I even dragged it out and made my accusations more and more outragious the entire time and no one caught on. Some people from my Villain group at the time thought it absolutely hillarious and started egging me on via PMs and giving me things to say. It's not the first time I've pulled that crap with a bunch of ZOMG SERIAL PvPers in Help and I haven't done it in a loooong time because people never caught on and thus it ceased being funny. That and certain things have happened since then that have really fired up my hatred for PvPers.
What you fail to realize is you have no idea whether I was ever provoked by PvPers. And the fact is, I have been, both by people like them and them specifically. I've kicked plenty of them from Super Groups for causing all manner of stupidity, especially since CELESTIAL Elite went down the tubes just as I had gotten all the basics in the base and was beginning to maintain some active players. We had regular groupings 3 days a week and I was going to do some task force stuff on weekends when I had time. Unfortunately, pretty much half the Super Group left over, none the less, PvP Drama, go figure. And the worse part was this all went down when I was away for roughly a month, and the person whom I left in charge didn't seem to understand what the kick button was, decided to take a break from the game the same time I did, and caused everyone to effectively think I had abandoned ship, By the time I came back what was left of my SG was completely idle. I didn't even know there was ZOMG SERIOUS PVPARS in my group, guess I shouldn't have made is so anyone but the lowest rank could invite, huh? To make things worse I think one of the guys that started all the trouble was a guy I had kicked from the group earlier for the same kind of behavior, on an alt.
You also need to keep in mind not everyone shares your ideology about how the game should play, be played, nor how hard, easy or involved or relaxed it should be. Otherwise, everyone would PvP like you do, and the PvP zones would be as active as normal PvE. The problem here is, you are indeed the minority, and while I do agree that the devs made a bad choice in trying to fix something for a majority that has no interest in it, it doesn't change the fact that you are still the minority and the devs are going to *try* to adjust their game to suit the largest number of people possible. I actually like alot of the changes myself, however they wont bring me to PvP with the attitudes that exist there, and pretty much the rest of my opinion can be summed up by what is currently in my sig. If you think you've seen stupid on help from me, you obviously haven't seen some of the I'M QUITTING stuff that popped up on various servers shortly after the PvP changes hit Open Beta, which was in no way satirical. They were met with a nearly unanimous "GOOD RIDDANCE."
Anyway, we've outright derailed this guys thread, and probably served to do little more than confuse him. So I'm done bickering, I'm just going to ignore any further bull hockey that heads my way. I'm considering the source here, and seeing as you valiantly come here to defend the honor of PvP, the source of some of the most belligerent people I've had the displeasure to team with, I honestly don't see eye to eye with you and I wont.
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O....M....G.....TMI....TMFI bro...wow..
I'd say Regen is more than a "decent" set for PvP. It's probably the best, although WP is a rival. Go with WP, though. In PvP and PvE, Regen just isn't as good for Stalkers as it is for Scrappers (mainly due to less hitpoints, which means less hp/sec). WP is a great set for all (Stalkers, Tankers, Brutes, and Scrappers). It's slightly different than the basic WP because it doesn't have that crazy awesome power Rise to the Challenge, but it does give you a self-heal (a very good one, at that) which WP lacks sorely.
However, keep in mind that DM isn't a good set for PvP. It's not horrendous, but it's one of the weaker PvP primaries. It's solid for PvE, but I can't take the lack of a reliable AoE power. It drives me nuts. If I were you, I'd go Elec Melee or Ninja Sword. Even Energy Melee is fun, although boring and everyone seems to own one.
And just for the record, not every PvP'er is a jerk. Far from it. I take offense to that, actually. I PvP on Freedom quite a bit, and while I may talk some trash, I'm never ever rude about it and often times I'll make fun of myself also. It's less trash talk and more poking fun. Now, the guys in Arena Chat can be jerks, but you don't have to deal with them. Don't not PvP because one person told you to over a bad personal experience. I PvP frequently on my Scrapper and enjoy it a lot. You just have to know when to tune some of the jerks out.
Hey, I'm starting a new stalker and have pretty much decided on Dark Melee as my primary. The secondary, however, is proving to be much harder to choose. As I understand it, Dark/Nin is quite powerful in PvE - and quite laughable in PvP. What I'm looking for is a good secondary that would be sufficient in both PvP and PvE. My primary focus will, of course, be PvE but if/when I get the urge to participate in a little PvP, I don't want to feel subpar.
Of course, I have researched the primaries quite a bit, and this is what I could garner so far:
Ninjutsu is considered to be near the top of primaries for PvE due to its loose build (only two toggles?) and utility. The set also makes it easier to stay in hide. It also has a good heal.
Regeneration is pretty decent in PvP due to the "twitch" of it, enabling some good regeneration, dull pain, and reconstruction. It's performance largely depends on the player's ability to respond to the enemy's strike. It also seems like it would be a more consistent experience than a defense set.
Willpower seems... Weird, to say the least. In it's stalker incarnate, it's largely a resistance based set. I'd have to say that this is the secondary I understand the least.
Any other opinions? I realize what I'm asking is a pretty loaded question - "What's the best set for PvE AND PvP" - but anyone else have any opinions? Thanks in advance!