Pets seem unbalanced.


Auspice

 

Posted

Can someone help me see why the most survivable pets (bots/thugs) also do the most AoE damage while the squishy ones only do the best ST damage (necro/ninja)?

Edit: I like the melee pets, but I'm wondering if I should just wait until they are buffed, because they won't stop dying.


 

Posted

They do greater ST damage because they are weaker (it's a fact of sacrificing survivability on the pet's part ofr increased damage), and because of the damage they gain they must be more ST oriented.

While the pets themselves may be weak you, the mastermind, have the duty of picking a more survivable and fitting secondary to rid them of their weaknesses.

Also, I thought zombies, when using the correct secondary, were pretty damn survivable after the second upgrade.


 

Posted

Well, one part of this is that melee attacks are primarily single target damage, you cannot do massive AoE damage in melee, even with PBAoEs. The radius of the attacks is not great enough. And Bots particularly is notorious for doing AoE damage over a massive area, because of the ability to drop multiple Burn patches.

The other problem is that entering into melee itself makes you squishy. None of the MM henchmen (except maybe the Bruiser and Commando) are built for taking melee range damage, and yet in order to deal damage with Ninjas and Necro, the pets have to get into melee. They're just going to take more damage than Mercs, Thugs and Bots, who can just lock down a group of foes with an immobilize and bake them from a safe distance.

Fortunately, while Bots does do a lot of damage in the late game, it's resiliance is paid for by absolutely horrible damage until you get to 32. The Assault Bot is the ONLY one that does any real damage, and neither the Drones nor the Protos get AoE attacks until you get Upgrade. So pre-26 you will be doing only single target damage.

Thugs does great damage prior to 32, but it doesn't have as much resiliance. The Enforcers are the majority of your damage, and get AoE attacks right from level 12, but your Punks have no defense outside of the Enforcers' Manuevers, and you get no heal.

Necromancy, at least, gives you Smashing Resistance on the Zombies, and when you get Upgrade they all get the ability to Siphon Life to heal themselves. (The Lich gets it right out of the box) They also will do more damage simply by being in melee. I suspect both Zombies and Grave Knights could do well with both Smashing and Lethal Resistance, but at least when one of them dies, you can revive them as a Ghost that DOES have those Resistances. (Plus, a lot of Necro's ranged attacks debuff Acc, particularly the Lich's Fearsome Stare)

As for Ninjas, while they are widely regarded as the least resiliant, I think they have a slightly different playstyle than most. While most MMs are built to be meatshields and absorb damage, Ninjas are stealthy and can do Criticals. This is what makes them easily the leaders at single target damage, it means that they have to stalk and split up their opponents, instead of just rushing in and taking them all on at once like other MMs would. Instead of being the MM version of a Brute, they're more like the MM version of a Stalker.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I thought zombies, when using the correct secondary, were pretty damn survivable after the second upgrade.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never played Zombies, which is why I'm not sure why they can be described as that tough when they don't have a Defense buff like Bots and Thugs. However, I think I may have hit it on the head when I guessed at the -Acc debuff for the Dark themed attacks.

I think it's actually pretty cool that the Grave Knights Taunt when they heal themselves. I guess they figure that since they just raised their HP they have some to spend drawing some aggro.


 

Posted

Zombies are extremely survivable because they have self heals, and when you pair that with a defensive primary you get a rather powerful combo.


 

Posted

Maybe it's my build, my merc/TA is more survivable with aid other than my necro/pain...

This is my build. I'm only lvl 26 right now:

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Madame Morte: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Necromancy
Secondary Power Set: Pain Domination
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Zombie Horde -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(3), Dmg-I(3), Dmg-I(7), Heal-I(33), Heal-I(33)
Level 1: Nullify Pain -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(5), EndRdx-I(7), EndRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 2: Soothe -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(5), EndRdx-I(9), EndRdx-I(9)
Level 4: Share Pain -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(11), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 6: Enchant Undead -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(37)
Level 8: Recall Friend -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Conduit of Pain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Grave Knight -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(13), Dmg-I(15), LdyGrey-%Dam(43), Achilles-ResDeb%(43)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 18: Soul Extraction -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(19), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(23), SvgnRt-PetResDam(25)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Suppress Pain -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(23)
Level 24: Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(25), Range-I(37), Range-I(43)
Level 26: Lich -- HO:Endo(A), HO:Endo(27), HO:Endo(27), ToHitDeb-I(31), ToHitDeb-I(31), EdctM'r-PetDef(46)
Level 28: World of Pain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), ResDam-I(29), ResDam-I(31), ToHit-I(33), ToHit-I(34)
Level 30: Team Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34), Range-I(40), Range-I(42)
Level 32: Dark Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 35: Anguishing Cry -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(36), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36), DefDeb-I(37), DefDeb-I(50)
Level 38: Painbringer -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(39), EndMod-I(40), EndMod-I(40)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Dark Blast -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45), ToHitDeb-I(45), ToHitDeb-I(46)
Level 47: Gloom -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), ToHitDeb-I(48), ToHitDeb-I(50)
Level 49: Enforced Morale -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]5% Defense[*]10% Resistance(Smashing)[*]10% Resistance(Lethal)[*]10% Resistance(Fire)[*]10% Resistance(Cold)[*]10% Resistance(Energy)[*]10% Resistance(Negative)[*]10% Resistance(Toxic)[*]10% Resistance(Psionic)[/list]


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's my build, my merc/TA is more survivable with aid other than my necro/pain...

This is my build. I'm only lvl 26 right now:

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Madame Morte: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Necromancy
Secondary Power Set: Pain Domination
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Zombie Horde -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(3), Dmg-I(3), Dmg-I(7), Heal-I(33), Heal-I(33)
Level 1: Nullify Pain -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(5), EndRdx-I(7), EndRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 2: Soothe -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(5), EndRdx-I(9), EndRdx-I(9)
Level 4: Share Pain -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(11), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 6: Enchant Undead -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(37)
Level 8: Recall Friend -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Conduit of Pain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Grave Knight -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(13), Dmg-I(15), LdyGrey-%Dam(43), Achilles-ResDeb%(43)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 18: Soul Extraction -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(19), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(23), SvgnRt-PetResDam(25)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Suppress Pain -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(23)
Level 24: Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(25), Range-I(37), Range-I(43)
Level 26: Lich -- HO:Endo(A), HO:Endo(27), HO:Endo(27), ToHitDeb-I(31), ToHitDeb-I(31), EdctM'r-PetDef(46)
Level 28: World of Pain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), ResDam-I(29), ResDam-I(31), ToHit-I(33), ToHit-I(34)
Level 30: Team Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34), Range-I(40), Range-I(42)
Level 32: Dark Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 35: Anguishing Cry -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(36), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36), DefDeb-I(37), DefDeb-I(50)
Level 38: Painbringer -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(39), EndMod-I(40), EndMod-I(40)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Dark Blast -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45), ToHitDeb-I(45), ToHitDeb-I(46)
Level 47: Gloom -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), ToHitDeb-I(48), ToHitDeb-I(50)
Level 49: Enforced Morale -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]5% Defense[*]10% Resistance(Smashing)[*]10% Resistance(Lethal)[*]10% Resistance(Fire)[*]10% Resistance(Cold)[*]10% Resistance(Energy)[*]10% Resistance(Negative)[*]10% Resistance(Toxic)[*]10% Resistance(Psionic)[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]

slot the lich for acc, fear and hold. fearsome stare is really good soft control

i dont know that i would have ever paired pain with necro. functionally, it works better with traps, dark and forcefield.


 

Posted

Those hami-os are acc/mez so it maximizes acc, fear, hold, and immob.


 

Posted

welp i dont see how you can improve your survivability anymore. i have a /pain at 42. you need very very tough pets. the heals and the regen arent going to always be enough

having up to 4 holds (you 2, lich 1, ds 1) and 3 cone fears (you, lich, ds) is why necro pairs the best with dark imo. i couldnt conceive of playing pain unless it was thugs or bots atm - but i have a serious aversion to having to constantly replace pets when i'm soloing missions

with proper and tight control of the pets so they are always in the dispersion bubble ninja/ff can softcap all the pets with manuevers.


 

Posted

My necro/traps is a monster, I never had pet survivability issues all the way to 50. Slot fearsome stare up on the lich and post-32 is pretty much smooth sailing.

I think it pairs just fine with anything, honestly. Necro takes more skill to play, since it requires a little pet micro.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Necro takes more skill to play, since it requires a little pet micro.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Necro/Dark did levels 6 - 50 just leaving the the pets in bodyguard, walking up close to a group and hitting either Air Superiority, Fearsome Stare or Darkest Night. After the Lich and ESPECIALLY once I got Fluffy, everything was locked down and hacked, blasted and puked to death, all the time.


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