Working on building an AV killer, have questions

Hi guys/gals.

I have been in IM with someone about making an AV killer. Thats pretty much all he will be doing, Oh, and I may throw him into zone pvp as well. So, this means ST damage. In my last post I figured out that I wanted Dm as a primary for it.

Now, between the Im's with Powerforge and some in game questions ot other players (Of course they have vet badges, I wouldnt ask anyone who didnt anymore as the answer to everything since AE Came out is MM's...ugh) I have definately narrowed the secondaries down to /Sd and /Sr.

So, knowing that in order to become an AV killer, its definately going to cost me some bucks in game, and a few lucky drops by my farming Brute and my TFing Kin with alot of tickets and merits to twink my AV killer out. (<<<Yes I am an original EQLive player from back in the day and some of the terms just will never leave my thoughts. Andwas extatic to being one of the first people on my server to solo Vox with my iksar monk MUHAHAHAHAH KUNARK FOEVER) Anyway, I stray...

Ok, so knowing that its going to be costly to do what I am planning, which would be the most survivable during both AV combat solo and PvP?

Both Sr and Sd have some extremely strong points which makes me not be able to decide. So far, on my 2 different test toons, I have brought them both up to 25th lvl. At that point with Stam and SO's its pretty much a tie, aside form Sd being much heavier on End usage.

As far as I can tell, neither Sd nor Sr have a downside...As far as I can tell...

Buildwise, I definately am NO good at making them, so I inquire in game and on the boards to find the best answers and compair everything I see and learn to make the best judgement for what it is I am looking to do, fixing and tweaking here and there and of course making mistakes all along the way.

So, enough of my prattle...Which do you guys think would have the easier time of AV killing as a Brute?

/SD

or

/Sr


Thank you in advance for your help, and especialy Thank you to Powerforge for his suggestions and council.

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I hate all this terrorist business. I used to love the days when you could look at an unattended bag on a train or bus and think to yourself.... I'm going to take that.

heh powerforge must have a busy inbox as i've been chatting with him a ton too

one thing you didnt touch on was how much money you were willing to throw at this. it is rather expensive to soft cap an /sd brute redside vs. /sr while still having enough global recharge to have a decent attack chain.

plan a few builds in mid's. a lot will depend on your primary of choice as well. you may or may not need to pickup the medicine pool. you may or may not have room for many attacks in the primary. just remember that mid's incorrectly counts phalanx as always having one team mate in range so subtrace 3...whatever i think it's 3.75% from your totals page to see your actual defense.

it's also apparantly easier to get rather high resistances to defense debuffs as SR and elude is a great power to take but not bother to slot at 49 for when you have to deal with av's with tohit buffs or if you find yourself having end issues on those long fights until yo uare fully slotted out. /sd cheats using hammi-o's in active defense and double stacking it so there's a real possibility of the dev's pulling that rug out from under the feet of /sd players at some point in the future.

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My personal recommendation is SR, for one reason. Recharge. Endurance will be the big issue for both, so I wouldn't put one set ahead of the other due to it.

With Shields, if you want to softcap it you're going to have to invest in +defense sets and generally will make tradeoffs that you may not like. With Super Reflexes, you have a tight build in that you're picking at pretty much your entire secondary (Elude is skippable IMO if you're softcapping anyway) but it allows for a wider range of options on offense since it's much easier to cap.

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i just spent about 5 minutes in mids and made a dm/sr that was soft capped with everything but elude from sr, leaping as travel and weave.

after putting 3 io's in the sr powers, i added one touch of death set, two zephyr sets (one in cj, one in sj) and all 6 bits of gaussians fire control in soul drain.

ended up with 45% to melee, 47% to aoe and ranged.

that's - a cheap investment. the end drain is high but that's pretty much compensated by dark consumption and i hadnt even put anything into any other powers.

yep. i think /sr is highly underrated for brutes.

edit: and even though we take but dont slot tough for /sr, putting the steadfast +3% in there meant i dont even need the gaussians set. i got my steadfast io for far cheaper than a full gaussians set is

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Personally, I went with /EA. Partly because I'd already soloed AVs with /SR and /SD, but also becuase brutes don't get Conserve Power in their epic pools like scrappers do, and /EA gets not only Conserve Power, but Energy Drain, too. Endurance management is one of the critical issues in fighting AVs, and it's possibly the most easily overlooked.

People who forget that brute /SR and /SD don't get Conserve Power the way scrappers do, will likely find themselves disappointed. Softcapped defense and a high DPS chain mean squat if you have to let up because you're running out of endurance, allowing the AV to regenerate lots of the damage you've done.

Dark Melee brutes may find some solace in Dark Consumption, but it's not nearly as useful or reliable as the tools provided by /EA.

Now EA is more vulnerable to defense debuffs than /SR or /SD, which can be a problem while fighting some AVs, and it's weak to psi and negative attacks, which several notable Freedom Phalanx and Vindicator AVs use. So it's by no means perfect for redside AV soloing.

But it does come equipped with the tools you will need to sustain a high DPS attack chain indefinitely, which is one of the keys to beating AVs. Brute /SR and /SD don't have these tools available, unless they're DM/, in which case the tool they have is inferior.

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When we are talking about +3% DEF, does the game calculate it as current defense times 1.03 or base plus 3%?

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Try my AE Arc: Out of Place, Out of Time ID#304340.
Leave your Arc title in the feedback and I will check yours out as well.

It's a flat 3% added to your defense total.

If you are at 42% to something that IO will put you at 45%

The two sets in question are so close performance-wise that it's really a matter of "Which one sounds cooler?"

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[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I went with /EA. Partly because I'd already soloed AVs with /SR and /SD, but also becuase brutes don't get Conserve Power in their epic pools like scrappers do, and /EA gets not only Conserve Power, but Energy Drain, too. Endurance management is one of the critical issues in fighting AVs, and it's possibly the most easily overlooked.

People who forget that brute /SR and /SD don't get Conserve Power the way scrappers do, will likely find themselves disappointed. Softcapped defense and a high DPS chain mean squat if you have to let up because you're running out of endurance, allowing the AV to regenerate lots of the damage you've done.

Dark Melee brutes may find some solace in Dark Consumption, but it's not nearly as useful or reliable as the tools provided by /EA.

Now EA is more vulnerable to defense debuffs than /SR or /SD, which can be a problem while fighting some AVs, and it's weak to psi and negative attacks, which several notable Freedom Phalanx and Vindicator AVs use. So it's by no means perfect for redside AV soloing.

But it does come equipped with the tools you will need to sustain a high DPS attack chain indefinitely, which is one of the keys to beating AVs. Brute /SR and /SD don't have these tools available, unless they're DM/, in which case the tool they have is inferior.

[/ QUOTE ]

the end drain isnt an issue at all.

my current fm/sr build has 3.23 recovery and burns 0.9 in toggles. it can maintain it's attack c hain for quite a long time.

powerforge's proposed fm/sr build would take over 40 minutes of continous attacking using his three attack chain of incinerate - cremate - firesword to run dry on endurance.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I went with /EA. Partly because I'd already soloed AVs with /SR and /SD, but also becuase brutes don't get Conserve Power in their epic pools like scrappers do, and /EA gets not only Conserve Power, but Energy Drain, too. Endurance management is one of the critical issues in fighting AVs, and it's possibly the most easily overlooked.

People who forget that brute /SR and /SD don't get Conserve Power the way scrappers do, will likely find themselves disappointed. Softcapped defense and a high DPS chain mean squat if you have to let up because you're running out of endurance, allowing the AV to regenerate lots of the damage you've done.

Dark Melee brutes may find some solace in Dark Consumption, but it's not nearly as useful or reliable as the tools provided by /EA.

Now EA is more vulnerable to defense debuffs than /SR or /SD, which can be a problem while fighting some AVs, and it's weak to psi and negative attacks, which several notable Freedom Phalanx and Vindicator AVs use. So it's by no means perfect for redside AV soloing.

But it does come equipped with the tools you will need to sustain a high DPS attack chain indefinitely, which is one of the keys to beating AVs. Brute /SR and /SD don't have these tools available, unless they're DM/, in which case the tool they have is inferior.

[/ QUOTE ]

the end drain isnt an issue at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
More specifically, it can be built around with IOs.

It's definately an issue to be considered when building, though - and I said as much in my first post.

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Wow....Now your all getting the dumb blonde (Me) confused even more..All this talk about numbers and stuff...Confuses the hell out of me. Numbers are my weakest weakness, you shold see how empty my bak is all the time.
In all my conversation with everyone I have spoken to aboiut this, noone has even mentioned /EA until now....hrmm....Dark AND Pretty huh? I am going to have to give /EA a whirl. for a couple of days and see what becomes of it...



As to how much money....Well, as much as I can possibly earn...I have roughly 100m in sets on my bane/crab for def/res and the mellee. My Kin is fast approaching numina unique merit level, my SS/Invuln....Well, he is another story, but has currently 79m on him plus what is being sold...All in all, I can probably arrange about 100m inf every 3 days roughly to put away for this proposed monstrousity...


Now, back to /EA
Hrmm....Now, I am realy wondering about that. I think that is like....the ONLY secondary in the game for melee I havent used at all....not sure why either. Ok going to make one and take him to 25ish and compair to /sd and /sr and see what I like best, then bring my results back to the boards for more quesitons.

Thanks for all your input guys.

O, BTW, I can put together a build in Mids, but when I start attampting to use IO's (Cant find them) I start getting lost. When its time to figure out numbers, even from someoe elses build....Well, I have to take aspirine and go do something else hehe.

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I hate all this terrorist business. I used to love the days when you could look at an unattended bag on a train or bus and think to yourself.... I'm going to take that.

Well, I didn't mention any of the other secondaries because your OP said, "I have definately narrowed the secondaries down to /Sd and /Sr."

I actually made a DM/EA over a DM/SR simply because I had multiple Kinetic Combat sets already, and could softcap Sm/Le/En - the most common damage types in the game - all by level 32. I wasn't going for AV soloing so much, though, and EA has the same compromise issues that SD does plus includes a Psi hole which can make some AVs problematic.

Here[/b][u][/color] is the planned build, although I already deviated slightly and swapped Hasten and Touch of Fear. She's only level 39 so far, so I haven't finished it yet. The global recharge is a bit low in my opinion, but you can still chain together Smite, Gloom, Siphon Life, and Midnight's Grasp without pauses so it should work. But defense debuffs and DE quartz emanators really suck.

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Here's my DM/EA build. More vulnerable to negative energy, but with higher hp, damage resistance and regen. And probably a fair bit higher damage output as well, even though the global +dam is lower (since mine has faster Soul Drain and procs in every attack, including purple procs in Gloom and MG and a chance for buildup in Gloom).

Mine doesn't have ToF or Darkest Night though, and those are awesome powers--but I leveled to 50 without a debt badge and didn't use them.

I'm willing to accept negative energy as kryptonite for all the goodies I was able to build in, but I have to be aware of it on ITFs and use purples against the Cysts and their spawns. And I will need to use the same strategy against AVs with negative energy attacks, assuming I ever actually encounter one on redside.

All in all, it's a fun departure from SD and SR, while still being a defense-based set.

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Heya Chaos, was nice meeting you in game and seeing you in action. After talking to you in game, I think I will just stick with my Dm/Sr for see how that turns out...Worse comes to worse, I can alwasy respec all my IO's out (once I start slotting them) and roll /Ea or/SD.

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I hate all this terrorist business. I used to love the days when you could look at an unattended bag on a train or bus and think to yourself.... I'm going to take that.

Yep, good to meet you. /SR is probably the right choice since A) you already have it and B) it doesn't suffer from some of the weaknesses that /EA has. And /SR gets a leg up in the recharge department, too. Just watch the endurance use of your attacks and toggles and offset it with +recovery and +endurance bonuses.

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below is what my dm/sr is going to look like at 50 after talking to several of the math guru's on the scrapper board. it is a respec build to be sure, but has the global recharge with hasten up to achieve a nearly gapless rotation, and with only a couple gaps for the short bits hasten is down. for me it will be surprisingly cheap since i already have the miracle, numina's, perf shifter, steadfast, a full set of touch of death and the three LOTG's i plan to cannibalize from my other brute for. the zephyr sets really arent that expensive, and i'm at around 47% defense for those times w hen the cimeroan's hax the RNG.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(3), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), T'Death-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(7), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(9), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9), RedFtn-Def(11)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(11), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(13), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), RedFtn-Def(15)
Level 4: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(17), Zephyr-ResKB(17), Winter-ResSlow(19), DefBuff-I(46)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- Nictus-Heal(A), Nictus-Acc/Heal(19), Nictus-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(25), Zephyr-ResKB(27)
Level 16: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(27), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(29)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- RechRdx-I(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(29), P'Shift-EndMod(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(31), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(33)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(A), P'Shift-EndMod(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(33), P'Shift-End%(46)
Level 22: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(34)
Level 24: Evasion -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(34), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), RedFtn-Def(36)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Build%(39)
Level 28: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(39)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(39), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(40), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 35: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 38: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 41: Gloom -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(45), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(45), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RedFtn-Def(46)
Level 47: Dark Obliteration -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Dmg/Rng(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Fire)[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Cold)[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Energy)[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Negative)[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)[*]15.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)[*]6.13% Defense(Smashing)[*]6.13% Defense(Lethal)[*]7.38% Defense(Fire)[*]7.38% Defense(Cold)[*]7.38% Defense(Energy)[*]7.38% Defense(Negative)[*]3% Defense(Psionic)[*]9.25% Defense(Melee)[*]11.8% Defense(Ranged)[*]11.8% Defense(AoE)[*]2.25% Max End[*]25% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]60% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]15% FlySpeed[*]191.2 HP (12.8%) HitPoints[*]15% JumpHeight[*]15% JumpSpeed[*]Knockback (Mag -8)[*]Knockup (Mag -8)[*]MezResist(Held) 2.75%[*]MezResist(Immobilize) 19.8%[*]12.5% (0.21 End/sec) Recovery[*]20% ResEffect(FlySpeed)[*]20% ResEffect(RechargeTime)[*]20% ResEffect(RunSpeed)[*]6.62% Resistance(Fire)[*]6.62% Resistance(Cold)[*]15% RunSpeed[/list]


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with this setup, siphon life returns 321 health per use. get the villain accolades and that shoots up to 378 health. you can get well over 400 if you change some things around and slot for more max hp.

i wanted something that wasnt stone that could tank the majority of the content villainside. i dont consider resist only or resist sets as optimal because of longbow nullifiers, nor do i consider regen only or mostly regen sets viable because of longbow spec ops. they can work, but they can also frustrate.

so priority for me was a secnodary with a strong taunt aura, good single target dps, end management an afterthought and respectable self healing when the hits get through the defenses. dark obliteration fills the aoe hole for the set (+2 lt's have 890 health. soul drain + dark consumption + dark obliteration will kill every minion and neearly every LT in range at 80 fury)

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[ QUOTE ]
with this setup, siphon life returns 321 health per use. get the villain accolades and that shoots up to 378 health. you can get well over 400 if you change some things around and slot for more max hp.

[/ QUOTE ]
Except that the heal works off of your melee heal attribute, which is based off of the AT's base maxhp so that each AT sees approximately the same percentage from the same self-heal, instead of your current maxhp... you're not increasing the heal by adding +hp. It will affect regeneration, which is based on the time it takes to go from 0 to your current maxhp.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to add hit points to your Brute, but don't expect larger green numbers over your head because of it.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with this setup, siphon life returns 321 health per use. get the villain accolades and that shoots up to 378 health. you can get well over 400 if you change some things around and slot for more max hp.

[/ QUOTE ]
Except that the heal works off of your melee heal attribute, which is based off of the AT's base maxhp so that each AT sees approximately the same percentage from the same self-heal, instead of your current maxhp... you're not increasing the heal by adding +hp. It will affect regeneration, which is based on the time it takes to go from 0 to your current maxhp.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to add hit points to your Brute, but don't expect larger green numbers over your head because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

you sure about that? because my level 30 dm/sd brute returns 235 from siphon life with one level 30 heal io in it, and i have a feeling it's as much as a level 50 scrapper returns because of true grit

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