Live Feedback: Issue 13 : Bases -- Rent & Editing

Fire_Away · 12-15-2008 11:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My feedback on bases is all subjective.

First, although it's water under the bridge and I know we're not going back now...the removal of base salvage makes no sense whatsoever, and was not well implemented. In an attempt for, as we were told, "simplicity", a new form of salvage was created (brainstorms), hundreds of convert recipes were created, storage was greatly reduced meaning that event salvage overflows in many bases, all base crafting and empowerment station recipes have been tripled, and the providing of salvage for bases has gone from something the whole group contributes to, to something the base architect has to provide from his own pocket. (Yes, theoretically everyone could contribute...but how many is that happening.) With all the issues facing bases, THIS is what they spend their time on? And apparently no one thought of the side issues of event salvage, or the way people used the conversion of invention salvage to base salvage for the crafter badges. It's a done deal, we're stuck with it, but it was a bad idea, and very poorly handled. If you'd talked to us about it before it was a fait accomplis, maybe we'd understand, and could have helped deal with the side effects and craft a better solution. This change, and even more so the way it was handled, has cost NCNC a lot of goodwill with me.

Next, there's rent. On a purely personal level, POWER being my main group, the reduction of rent is nice. However, I also run some groups of rarely-used players with a small base that owed no rent. They now will be charged rent. And because they are rarely used, they'll likely find bases shut off, and with the bugs where bases get into a 'you can't get in because you owe rent' but the SG registrar says 'you don't owe rent' requiring a petition...the time it takes to get it fixed will mean that the bases are now useless (because when those rarely played characters are played, it's for a short time).

Furthermore...what is the purpose of rent, from a game design standpoint? It used to be both a limit on excessive growth (you can't put every bit of prestige into the base without looking at the rent costs) and an incentive to keep active and have everyone contribute to keep the SG going. It was overly burdensome, particularly for large groups, but at least there was an identifiable reason for it. The reduction to being based on plot size greatly reduced the burden, and made it easier for small groups to get going. The I13 rent is so trivial that, at least if you have a few 50s in your group willing to run in SG mode, it might as well not exist. Now, it's only an annoyance for large groups, sending someone to atlas park or port oakes periodically to click on a man to keep it going. And for small SGs where the rent went up, again it's not the amount that's the issue, but that people have to periodically pay the rent--and if people don't play in that SG that often, the base may find itself shut down.

Goals and motivations are good, it's why we play games, to do stuff in the game. Annoyances aren't, they are interruptions in the game. Rent is too small to be a goal or motivation, and the process of paying rent is an annoyance. Either rent should be increased...or eliminated. If you increase the rent, it shouldn't be based on things like storage...and the very small groups shouldn't be hit by it. If you don't think you can eliminate, at least reduce the annoyance...give us an option to have the rent paid automatically when it is due (presuming there is sufficient prestige).

Pricing changes...appreciated and particularly the refund. Though I think there was one area missed...the second step towards growing a base. The one where you go from an oversight center to separate energy and control rooms, with the basic purchasable power unit and control units. Having taken a few groups over that step (and having had other groups stall out at it), lowering that step would be great.

One last thing, and in many ways, it's all of those. It's what an ex-president would call "the vision thing". Does NCNC have a vision about what bases should be, and if so, can you express it? From the cheap seats, it looks like you started with a vision of "bases are for PVP in raiding" and when that didn't work you, you've sort of been muddling along, tweaking things based on feedback and what you saw as problems. If you do have a vision, it doesn't show. Clearly, you want PVP to be part of what bases are, and while it has promise, it's not going to be the whole, or even the majority, of what the players want from bases. So...what does a big SG do with its base, what should be the experience with it. How about a small SG, say 8 people who team together once a week (or so). From the vision, flows questions of price, rent, security and permissions (much of the base design is based on big SGs...except the storage permission system really only fits the small SG). Bases are a fun and useful addition to the game, it deserves some direction and coherence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Subjective

This was a very thoughtful and well-written analysis and I agree completely.

My only other comment is the communications on the whole topic of bases needs to be more of two way street. You have heard from us (the player community) ad nauseam. When do we get to hear more from you (the developers)... especially about "the vision thing"?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.

Az'rial · 12-15-2008 12:27 PM

Please note that all comments below are subjective:

<ul type="square">[*] All Supergroup Base room prices and Prestige costs have been rebalanced.[*] Rent has been substantially changed. Rent is no longer charged on a per-plot basis and is instead charged on a per-item basis for certain specific items.[*] Rent Items include all Storage, Empowerment stations, Medical auxes and 2nd or 3rd tier Worktables. It does not include basic Worktables, basic Medical, Control, Energy or Transport items.[*] Refunds for Base Plots, Base Rooms, and Base items will be issued if the price has changed.[*] Players must enter the base before a refund is generated.[/list]
This has been a godsend for my SG as we are only about 5-6 active people in an older SG that has had a lot of members leave for other games or RL. We were to significantly upgrade the plot size, generator, and control units.

<ul type="square">[*] All base crafted items now use invention salvage. Base Salvage should only be needed in recipes that convert base salvage to invention salvage.[*] Base Salvage no longer drops.[/list]
I am on the fence about this. While it is easier to craft items, the cost is so much greater. I had needed 1 more io salvage piece to finish a defensive item and when I went to purchase it at WW it cost me 4mil in influence Also, members are much less willing to donate their io salvage to be betterment of the base. All the expenditure for having a fantastic base squarely falls on the shoulders of the builders. I know that in the week of building our new base, the other co-leader and myself has spent tens of millions of our own influence to build the necessary base items. I am enjoying the ease of crafting but I am not sure that the cost is worth it. I also do not believe the explanation as to why the base salvage was nixed due to the confusion factor...lame excuse and not at all believable.

<ul type="square">[*] Removed all raiding related restrictions on placing items in a base. Specifically, items may now intersect and or completely block door to door paths or door to item paths. This change will allow much greater freedom in placing objects in your base.[*] When raids are enabled again, players will be able to choose whether their base will abide by the new raiding-related restrictions.[/list]
This fact alone is such a win for me and my SG as we do not participate in raids at all and do not plan to in the future. All the defense items are strictly used as decorative items. I am happy to see that we will have a choice as to whether or not to reinstate the raid pathing when raiding is reinstated. I love the new freedom of the no pathing. It really lets me be creative with the base and do things that i never imagined could be done. Now if only we were given access to someof the in game details that populate the different mission maps, I would be a truly happy camper.

<ul type="square">[*] Added Teleporter Beacon for Pocket D.[*] Added SG badge to access Pocket D beacon.[*] Robo-Surgery can be attached to the Basic Reclaimator[*] Spirit Signal can be attached to Resurrection Rings[/list]
Thank you fall all of the above.

<ul type="square">[*] Base Salvage racks can now hold a limited amount of invention salvage.[*] Any crafted items stored on a character in personal inventory will charge the new prices.[/list]
While it is wonderful that io salvage is now accepted in the storage bins, the amount stored is ridiculous. Going from 999 to 30?! Especially since now everything craftable, from base details to empowerment buffs, are done with io salvage the amount is far too small. Not to mention that the 30 also includes Holiday Event salvage. My SG has a really SERIOUS case of alt-itis and the Halloween salvage alone takes up 3 bins. I do not want to think about the candy canes for the upcoming Winter Event that will need to be stored.

Thanks for starting this thread Ex, I hope to be hearing what all of you on the other side of the screen have to say to our comments here.
Az

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.

Ad Astra · 12-15-2008 12:32 PM

Objective: The pricing reduction was great. All of my bases now are on larger plots with more or larger rooms. Most of my bases had a reduction in rent (the smallest one went from zero to under 2K, however).

My main peeve with the I13 base changes so far is that stupid bug placing on the south & west walls noted by almost all your posters in this thread and documented multiple timesin the I13 bug thread - any ETA on that fix?

Subjective: I can't complete my changes to the bases because I really really need to place items flush to the south & west walls and hang things on them. I cannot stress too much how this annoys the bejeebus out of me!

Also, the only way I was able to afford the larger bases was because I was able to cash in on the Prestige grant last year, as the jump from starter base (oversight room + Combo energy/control) to the next step up (separate energy & control rooms and the associated items) did not drop significantly when measured against Prestige earned by a small group playing in SG mode (my group is basically 2 players and their alts).

I do not like the way the elimination of base salvage was handled. Back during Beta, I predicted a lot of confusion and disappointment about the change - which was often overlooked in the Patch Notes (and, bless your heart, Ex, not explained in enough detail to get the idea across to many). Predicting the hullabaloo was not a stretch prediction, because I saw how the limited audience in Beta on the Base Builders forum reacted to it, and I knew that there would be many, many players out there who never go to the forums or test in the Betas. I am hoping that the next time something like this occurs, NCNC handles communication better - especially in treating the players as grown-ups rather than trying to fob us off with simplistic "it was too confusing" types of explanations.

Adding Sunstorm as a specific redname with base building answers was great. His relative silence since the Issue released is not so great.

I want to close with another reiteration of my point that the bug placing items on the south & west walls needs a fix ASAP! It's making redoing the bases unnecessarily difficult and just plain looks goony!

Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."

EvilArtist · 12-15-2008 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My feedback on bases is all subjective.

First, although it's water under the bridge and I know we're not going back now...the removal of base salvage makes no sense whatsoever, and was not well implemented. In an attempt for, as we were told, "simplicity", a new form of salvage was created (brainstorms), hundreds of convert recipes were created, storage was greatly reduced meaning that event salvage overflows in many bases, all base crafting and empowerment station recipes have been tripled, and the providing of salvage for bases has gone from something the whole group contributes to, to something the base architect has to provide from his own pocket. (Yes, theoretically everyone could contribute...but how many is that happening.) With all the issues facing bases, THIS is what they spend their time on? And apparently no one thought of the side issues of event salvage, or the way people used the conversion of invention salvage to base salvage for the crafter badges. It's a done deal, we're stuck with it, but it was a bad idea, and very poorly handled. If you'd talked to us about it before it was a fait accomplis, maybe we'd understand, and could have helped deal with the side effects and craft a better solution. This change, and even more so the way it was handled, has cost NCNC a lot of goodwill with me.

Next, there's rent. On a purely personal level, POWER being my main group, the reduction of rent is nice. However, I also run some groups of rarely-used players with a small base that owed no rent. They now will be charged rent. And because they are rarely used, they'll likely find bases shut off, and with the bugs where bases get into a 'you can't get in because you owe rent' but the SG registrar says 'you don't owe rent' requiring a petition...the time it takes to get it fixed will mean that the bases are now useless (because when those rarely played characters are played, it's for a short time).

Furthermore...what is the purpose of rent, from a game design standpoint? It used to be both a limit on excessive growth (you can't put every bit of prestige into the base without looking at the rent costs) and an incentive to keep active and have everyone contribute to keep the SG going. It was overly burdensome, particularly for large groups, but at least there was an identifiable reason for it. The reduction to being based on plot size greatly reduced the burden, and made it easier for small groups to get going. The I13 rent is so trivial that, at least if you have a few 50s in your group willing to run in SG mode, it might as well not exist. Now, it's only an annoyance for large groups, sending someone to atlas park or port oakes periodically to click on a man to keep it going. And for small SGs where the rent went up, again it's not the amount that's the issue, but that people have to periodically pay the rent--and if people don't play in that SG that often, the base may find itself shut down.

Goals and motivations are good, it's why we play games, to do stuff in the game. Annoyances aren't, they are interruptions in the game. Rent is too small to be a goal or motivation, and the process of paying rent is an annoyance. Either rent should be increased...or eliminated. If you increase the rent, it shouldn't be based on things like storage...and the very small groups shouldn't be hit by it. If you don't think you can eliminate, at least reduce the annoyance...give us an option to have the rent paid automatically when it is due (presuming there is sufficient prestige).

Pricing changes...appreciated and particularly the refund. Though I think there was one area missed...the second step towards growing a base. The one where you go from an oversight center to separate energy and control rooms, with the basic purchasable power unit and control units. Having taken a few groups over that step (and having had other groups stall out at it), lowering that step would be great.

One last thing, and in many ways, it's all of those. It's what an ex-president would call "the vision thing". Does NCNC have a vision about what bases should be, and if so, can you express it? From the cheap seats, it looks like you started with a vision of "bases are for PVP in raiding" and when that didn't work you, you've sort of been muddling along, tweaking things based on feedback and what you saw as problems. If you do have a vision, it doesn't show. Clearly, you want PVP to be part of what bases are, and while it has promise, it's not going to be the whole, or even the majority, of what the players want from bases. So...what does a big SG do with its base, what should be the experience with it. How about a small SG, say 8 people who team together once a week (or so). From the vision, flows questions of price, rent, security and permissions (much of the base design is based on big SGs...except the storage permission system really only fits the small SG). Bases are a fun and useful addition to the game, it deserves some direction and coherence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Subjective

This was a very thoughtful and well-written analysis and I agree completely.

My only other comment is the communications on the whole topic of bases needs to be more of two way street. You have heard from us (the player community) ad nauseam. When do we get to hear more from you (the developers)... especially about "the vision thing"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Subjective:

GadgetDon has articulated most of what I wanted to say.

Also, both of these posts touch on two of my biggest concerns, I'd like to know what "the vision" is for bases and, like GadgetDon said, "This change, and even more so the way it was handled, has cost NCNC a lot of goodwill with me."

I like the conversational tone of most of the dev posts here and I always have, but (as has been requested repeatedly since beta, if I remember correctly) there really, really, REALLY needs to be some kind of regular communication of upcoming changes on THIS site for CURRENT players. Other games do this and even include the caveat that things are always fluid and ever-changing. I think players are cool with that and able to handle that.

Changes always run the risk of making some players unhappy, but good, honest communication is never a bad thing.

Cyberberus · 12-15-2008 09:07 PM

As a recent returnee post-13 I have only one issue with base changes ...

... 15k plus 100 rent for a 30 space salvage rack? 500 per slot?

I can *carry* more free than a huge rack can store?

I can fit more in a *free* safe deposit box than aforementioned huge rack?

This seems to be a bit out of whack IMHO.

At the very least a rack should hold X number of stacks of salvage items, rack "bins" as it were. I wouldn't have as much of an issue with paying that kind of danegeld if a rack held say 12-16 "bins" capable of holding stacks of 10 ... as it stands now it seems like someone is regretting having storage at all and is using ED methods to kill it off.

Kaeper · 12-15-2008 11:30 PM

I like the removal of base salvage. It wasn't adding anything different enough to be worth having for me.

Dropping the costs has also been good. I'm starting to feel now like my base is more where it should be for the amount of effort invested.

There are aspects however to the I13 changes & bases in general I don't really like.

Rent: Why bother? Its at a level where I have enough prestige banked to last for years. All it creates is a minor annoyance having to run off & pay it. Drop it, move on.

Placement Like a few have mentioned I'm having difficulty placing wall items where I want them or getting items flush. The gap in between the floor and my stairs is a serious health & safety risk, none of my heroes have sprained an ankle yet but I'm sure its just a matter of time

It's not I13 exactly but I'd really like to be able to directly control the height of any item. I've been able to do that in other games & miss it here

Storage: Invention storage in bases is simply bloody brilliant. Um, can I have more please? I'd like to move my storage from Wentworths to the base but I can't quite get there yet. Work commitments etc I can be away from the game for long periods at times. The first time Wentworths cleared me out was the closest I've ever come to quiting. So, base storage is a real comfort for us casual/intermittent players but its not quite enough. Can it be changed to a slot system like Wentworths? 30 slots, up to 10 items of the same type in each slot. Oh, and recipes too, goes without saying right?

General - Not I13 Since bases came out my biggest disappointment has been that its all square boxes on a flat plane with no fixed ties to a gameworld location. This isn't Professor Xaviers School for Gifted Youngsters, the Bat Cave, Avengers Mansion, X-Factors Ship (yeah, old school) or the top of the Baxter Building (Four Freedom Plaza? I'm a little out of date) etc etc. I don't care that my arrangement of boxes might be different to other peoples arrangement of boxes because I don't *see* other peoples bases. CoH bases for me are about the convenience of teleports & storage. It lacks a *presence*.

If you ever want to WOW me with CoH bases guys I'd like:
1. A variety of multi-level prefabs in different design concepts (cave, mansion, castle etc) that I can fit out
2. The ability to name it
3. Have it tied to a specific location including the ability to add a front door; windows with a view of the outside (even a generic, not whats really happening out there, kind of view); NPC's referring to my base, especially close to its location
4. Mission opportunities that don't relate to PvP raids. PvEers also read the 4,165 different comics in which the Avengers Mansion got attacked - we'd like to get in on that action also
5. Jarvis. Nuff said

Also; can I have a cookie?

===================================

The words you scribbled on the walls
the loss of friends you didn't have
I'll call you when the time is right

Bureaucrat · 12-16-2008 01:14 AM

The problems with how some of the pieces either wont stick on the wall, or are supposed to hang from the ceiling but are grounded for whatever reason like the AES.

Rent is not an issue for me. Every single of my bases have made out far better in this system than before. My small functional bases that I kept on a 8x8 plot to avoid the rent that was a bit steep for my partially active toon to grind out can easily be taken care of in a few missions on whatever plot size I can afford to upgrade to.

Getting rid of raid pathing was the best thing ever. It makes stacking and creating new base designs easier than ever, and some people have been able to create amazing things in their bases that were not able to be created at all before.

all in all, things are awesome.

12-16-2008 07:37 AM

As a noob bb, I am very happy to be able to expand my base and get all the tpers in for my mates. I still have to learn how to do so much but just being able to buy bigger plots now and filling them is a bonus to me.

Hookecho · 12-16-2008 11:01 AM

Allow me to lead off by saying thank you for adding a feedback thread for bases. Also thank you for a lot of the changes included in I13, many of them are much welcomed.

Objective Feedback:

As others have said, the west and south wall placement issues are a problem. items seem to be placed in the vertical plane of the low wall trim, even in using the side wall trick (using a wall that you can place a wall item on and then sliding over to the borked wall) to set vertical placement and then moving to either south or west wall. The Pocket-D beacon is displayed as broken but still works, so I am unsure if this is a bug or "displaying as intended". But really how hard is it to have it display a hot Carnie babe dancing in a cage?

Subjective Feedback:

Subjectively speaking.....2 gigantic sized thumbs up for a lot of the changes. The pricing changes allowed my small but packed to the rafters SG to expand from a 8x12 to a 16x20 plot size. The automated refund on already crafted items was a great help in allowing me to save on costs by not having to re-craft items. A big thank you for that. Removing the raid pathing from the base items so as to allow better stacking and combining of elements is a wonderful addition to base editing (as long as it wont come back to bite us in the backside once raiding is turned back on for those of us who have zero intention of allowing raids in out bases).

Base Salvage changes are not welcomed as in the long run it will cost base builders cash out of pocket (so to speak) to buy IO salvage needed for future expansions. Instead of a large, cheap, basically unlimited supply of items needed to craft not only base items but also empowerment station items, we now have to rely on either blind luck in the form of IO salvage drops or blind luck with brainstorms (which have been tested to reveal that using the RNG to convert brainstorms into salvage is about the same as waiting for a mob to drop that one specific piece of salvage you need to craft an item)....both of which are rather less than reliable to meet specific crafting needs. This pretty much forces base builders to interact with the market and the people playing City of Gordon Gecko, where prices for any base related salvage jumped as soon as the recipe requirements were posted in open beta. So the market which we were always told was totally optional, is now not so if you are a base builder. Its those choices or have to rely on the kindness of individual SG members who are also wanting to use IO salvage for actually building IOs, you know, their intended use.
As far as empowerment stations go, they were pretty weak to begin with in a usefulness sense, and now begin required to use IO salvage, they have gone from weak to completely un-useful, and thus I suspect many SG/VG leaders and base builders have done the same as me....just removed them from the base and thus also remove a useless item that also caused 100 rent.

Overall subjective Base Salvage feedback is negative. It was poorly thought out and implemented.

Rent is a sticky issue because for my SG (I only have 1, and it takes enough of my time that I dont intend to do this all over again some place else) I already paid rent pre-I13. I am thankful that my rent went from 20000 to about 1800 so that is a bonus. But I can understand some of the angst coming from others who specifically built their SG/VG bases based on the "build on the basic plot size and within its limitations and you will be rent free" issue.

Storage Changes. Much like the base salvage issue, this has been extremely poorly implemented. Salvage racks went from 999 to 30 (yes anything already in the rack does not disappear, you just cant add anything to it until it is under 30 items). So the intent seems to be to limit the players ability to actually store items for community use. But on top of that, the plot based storage limits were not raised. Pre-I13 this was not an issue for the most part because 1 or 2 salvage racks would take care of any and all needs of a SG/VG in terms of base salvage storage, holiday item storage, and component storage for empowerments and crafting. But now that those racks are limited to ridiculously small amounts combined with not having the plot storage numbers raised, we now have very limited storage available to us, generating a net LOSS of storage. Here is what I mean. In my base, I have enhancement storage for basic IOs. 10-15, 15-20, 20-25, 25-30, 30-35, 35-40, 40-45, and lvl 50. Thats 7 bins, for basic IO storage for use by SG members. I have 6 IO set storage for SG members to place crafted IO sets in. Thats 13 total enhancement storage. 2 Inspiration bins brings us to 15 storage items which leaves me with a whopping 3 salvage racks which now wont even hold all of out Halloween costume pieces, never mind any other salvage items the SG would like to place in racks for the SG as a whole to use.

So in a rush to eliminate something that was never an issue. Stop floating that dead fish of "some players are disappointed when getting base salvage instead of IO salvage" because all you had to do was ADD the words "Base Salvage Found" and let things continue working as they had before. Instead you have added needless cost and layers to a system that was fine to begin with, and have now actually taken away useable storage space within the SG, gutted an already underused and weak empowerment station to the point of having us remove them from bases and thus not having to pay rent on something thats borked and not worth the cost, or effort to use, all for the sake of mystical confused players.

So all in all 4 giant steps forward and 6 or so steps back. In talking to my group of players that I interact with on a regular basis, the Base Salvage and Storage issues are a big fat black cloud of a negitive hanging over some really great base changes. Its these kind of issues that drive us crazy when it comes to dealing with the Dev team. You do some really great things and make us say wow a lot. And at the same time you do things like Salvage and Storage that make us question if you actually play the game or even look down the road to see how things like this will effect the players.

Anyway, you asked for feedback, and again thanks for adding a Base and Editor Feedback thread, and I hope some of this will help the Dev team make better choices in the future.

Wow...sorry for the wall of text..............

ExChampionPlayer · 12-16-2008 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">[*]All Supergroup Base room prices and Prestige costs have been rebalanced.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">Repricing has been a boon to bases as it allowed for more groups/people to have greater use of bases and not take years to do it if at all before this.

Although i've noticed most of the decorative items have not been reduced in price and with the increased ability to stack/merge items and removal of pathing to merge items, decorative costs can easily add up even on the smallest of rooms.

Aside from that minor quibble, i am generally pleased with repricing overall.

Side Note: Sort of related to item prices, but many of the more interestingly animated/designed base items happen to be PVP related and although i don't PVP i do like to use those for decorative purposes but the enormous energy costs for many of them is requiring the larger energy items and the rooms to house them that it has been restrictive to some designs. There's still a large gap between going from one energy/control item tier to the next mostly because of the limited attachments allowed to those items.

Unless the devs decide to rebalance those energy costs per item, number of attachments to the generator or come up with no/low energy equivalent items only for PVE then it's neither here nor there. I can always do with less of those raid item decorations for now.

With rent being so minor i can just save up for them. But the required rooms, the items maybe even the plot needed will still be a very long wait.
[/list]
[ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">[*]Rent has been substantially changed. Rent is no longer charged on a per-plot basis and is instead charged on a per-item basis for certain specific items.[*]Rent Items include all Storage, Empowerment stations, Medical auxes and 2nd or 3rd tier Worktables. It does not include basic Worktables, basic Medical, Control, Energy or Transport items.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]<ul type="square">
Although i now have the extra inconvenience of having to pay rent on 7 bases, i can easily overlook that because now i am able to expand those bases from 8x8 to 16x16 plots, eventually planning for the 20x20 plot without feeling like i'm just working for rent.

Rent was the primary reason for me being restricted to the starter plot and although i made full use of it after stacking was discovered, it was still disheartening that i would've never been able to build larger, but now i can.

Whatever the "vision" for base rent is i hope it will not revert back to being punitive to small groups again.[/list][ QUOTE ]

<ul type="square">[*]All base crafted items now use invention salvage. Base Salvage should only be needed in recipes that convert base salvage to invention salvage.[*]Base Salvage no longer drops. [*]Base Salvage racks can now hold a limited amount of invention salvage.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]<ul type="square">
I've never been into player economy aspect of mmo games. I prefer working off my own drops which is something i enjoy. But i already have storage issues when it was just keeping salvage i needed for common io enhancements. Now with additional components i will need not just for those but for base items and empowerments, having what i need at the time i need them has been a greater strain.

I don't expect base salvage to return but maybe use something else like the prior mentioned brainstorms for base and empowerments or at the very least (and actually preferably), drastically increase salvage storage for the bins. Maybe add new salvage bins that hold more but requires larger upkeep (hopefully not too large)[/list][ QUOTE ]

<ul type="square">[*]Base raiding is currently being redesigned, and will be in that state for some time. For the duration, all base raiding, including instant raids, will be disabled.[*]When raids are enabled again, players will be able to choose whether their base will abide by the new raiding-related restrictions.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]<ul type="square">
I don't generally PVP so the base raids do not affect me and i hope i will remain unaffected after raids are reinstated.[/list][ QUOTE ]

<ul type="square">[*]Removed all raiding related restrictions on placing items in a base. Specifically, items may now intersect and or completely block door to door paths or door to item paths. This change will allow much greater freedom in placing objects in your base.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]<ul type="square">
Whether or not many of the new placement freedom (apart from merging items) of ceiling and wall items able to be floated off their respected areas and being able to place items inside raised floors/walls is an inadvertent effect of removing pathing or it was deliberately added, all these "quirks" combined has produced immensely interesting and varied base designs that were not possible before. And has made bases even more of a pleasure to build and even just to hang out in.

I know things like accidentally dragging an item into a raised wall can be startling but merely changing camera angle in order to view inside that wall and retrieve the item is a small concession to the greater freedom of design of intentionally embedding items into that wall for interesting outcome.

[ Relating the losing items in raised walls: I would actually like to keep that ability but perhaps remove the bottom graphic of those raised walls. The raised floors/lowered ceilings only have their respective opaque graphics that blocks views of items embedded in them. By changing camera angles, i can still see and drag items out of there. But the raised walls looks like it has the opaque graphics of both the ceiling and the floor as if those walls are made by lowering the ceiling to the floor AND raising the floor to the ceiling. By removing one of those opaque textures, should allow to remove items from them.

For now, i just manipulate the camera angle to zoom inside the wall in order to see the items inside so this is a minor problem. ]

Also that since desks and floor safes are able to stack on itself, has made certain situations of placing items on them a bit tricky, it has also produced the lamp/floor tile technique that is so much easier to float and place items than the old desk/safe method that overall, floating items has been more enjoyable, extremely quick and very easy now.

There's just some adjustment to floating that i had to learn but as a result of all the greater freedom, they've made me more eager to log into the game even if it's just to edit/hang out in my bases. I haven't felt like that about CoX in a long time and wish this trend not stop at just editing the base but also into having more reason to hang out or do things in the base, even possibly involving some PVE combat also, so others not just the editor can have more fun with them.[/list]

CaptA · 12-16-2008 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As a recent returnee post-13 I have only one issue with base changes ...

... 15k plus 100 rent for a 30 space salvage rack? 500 per slot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really not sure from where you are getting the "15k". You only get charged rent now (100 prestige) per bin and empowerment stations. I'm on the largest secure plot maxed out on storage and my rent is 2700 prestige.

"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21

Guide to Base Teleporters

Pentangle · 12-16-2008 02:17 PM

Objective Feedback: While adding auxiliary defense items to a 5x7 control room some threshold appears to have been crossed for how many items will be permitted to be displayed on the screen. The base is now in a constant state of redraw both in and out of the editor. Rotating the camera or moving in position while in the editor will frequently and repeatedly cause redraw flashes and reset the animation on any animating objects. Objects further away from the camera will be removed from view at some unknown time interval.

Subjective Feedback: I do not know if the number of objects, animating objects, objects with particle effects or some combination of them is the cause of this persistent redraw state but it happens frequently enough out of the editor that it detracts from the experience of being in the base and for me personally is a bit of a strain on the eyes. I feel if there is no near term workaround for this issue that it may be best to remove these additions in a hope to return redrawing stability to the base.

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Pentangle - Base Building Engineer

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Wench_NA · 12-16-2008 04:01 PM

I've seen alot of posts about going to Atlas or Port Oakes to pay the rent ...maybe there should be a special tp power (like the one for WW) that can take you there and back again

Cyberberus · 12-16-2008 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a recent returnee post-13 I have only one issue with base changes ...

... 15k plus 100 rent for a 30 space salvage rack? 500 per slot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really not sure from where you are getting the "15k". You only get charged rent now (100 prestige) per bin and empowerment stations. I'm on the largest secure plot maxed out on storage and my rent is 2700 prestige.

[/ QUOTE ]

15k is the cost of a salvage rack that only holds 30 pieces PLUS costs 100 per month rent.

Pendix · 12-17-2008 02:10 AM

I don't post much, but here goes. First a bit of BKG: I have been playing for 2.5 years now and have helped with the editing of a number of bases of supergroups (including one near-personal one). I am usually the one who crunches the numbers on the bases (working out costs, power/control, functionality stuff) thou I really enjoy the aesthetic side too.

Objective:
The south and west wall bug, as previously mentioned. Vanishing brainstorms (not me personally, but some friends lost some recently when their PC crashed)
The rubber-baning issues (an old issue I understand, thou it is much more obvious with the new rules).

Subjective:
- As the rent is now harder to ignore (keyed to functional items) and much cheaper I (and the SGs I'm in) have stopped trying to avoid it (previously all our bases were on the 8x8 expressly to avoid rent). I don't mind the current rent system, thou I wont shed a tear should it change again

- Lack of rent on plot size + prestige refund has resulted in expansion of the bases I work on, including the main blue-side one (which can now house all TP locations!!! < very happy about that).

- The absence of raid pathing & the new stacking rules has meant I have begun major redesigns of the bases I work on, however while more is now possible, the editor is still hugely cumbersome and the bugs (see above) are proving to be a significant stumbling block.

-The base/invention salvage matter is not one having a real effect upon my play ATM, though it should be noted that in most of the bases I'm in all crafting planed/need is already done. If at some point I craft some nifty item out of rarer salvage for the base, I'll be seeking a tightning of the editing permissions (from the SG leader) beforehand.

Kawless · 12-17-2008 03:17 AM

Empowerment Stations:
I have yet to hear of anyone using them post I13.
Please Simplify them.

Example:
Have 1 piece of any invention salvage be convertable to 1 Tech Power.
Make empowerment buffs consume Tech Powers for their buffs.

As it is now, might as well just buy Insps.

Kunzia · 12-17-2008 06:24 PM

I have used empowerment buffs post i13. Most of what I used (invis, perception, kb res) only needed 1 or 2 salvage. Not having to craft components is a good thing, I dont mind the use of common Inv salvage, I just hate the limited storage of salvage.

I stocked 2 salvage racks with what I need for buffs I use often, so I have what I need rather than storing random salvage from my toons. This works ok for me, but the storage doesnt last long and the cost of those 2 salvage racks for what they hold is rediculous.

For large sg's the reduced storage is insane, I find it limiting for me with only a few freinds in my sg and max storage units (18).

The devs are concerned with the effect on the market, but as it stands, market prices are often too high for many io salvage. Personally I would much sooner store my own salvage for crafting than buy from the greedy market. I would find the reduced storage more acceptable if market prices were fairly CAPPED!!!

ACheerleader · 12-18-2008 04:07 PM

I really think the salvage racks should hold more then 30, my lvl 10 can hold 32 stacks of salvage it makes the salvage rack almost pointless

My SG used it frequently (well for us its frequent) we had around 300 pieces in there at any given time so our base would need what 10 racks so we would most defently have to upgrade to a huge base and have a zillion 4 tile rooms with just racks in them? Dislike this new limit greatly the storage devices are basicaly the only things in our base we realy use next to the teleporters

I would like to see Salvage Rack limit increased to atleast 200 or more 30 is just a slap in the face

Windbourne · 12-18-2008 07:08 PM

Our base it the smallest, we're just three friends with a bunch of alts, and we have not teleports, just some storage racks and an invention table, yet this month rather than having the free "small" base we had to somehow pay 800. As stated all of our racks would have been just one previously and we'd have had the smallest possible base/no rent.

mv_infinity · 12-19-2008 03:16 PM

Subjective
I also dislike the small salvage rack size. It's easier and more efficent to just park some alts on permanent monitor duty and use them now to shuttle to the market.

I'm not big on the two walls (south and west I believe) that don't let me attach things against them without pushing them halfway into the floor. It's a known issue,but an annoying one.

Rent doesn't bother me, loss of base salvage isn't a big deal personally either. As previously mentioned the 'Oversight center' to control room jump is still very awkward.

Kawless · 12-21-2008 04:01 AM

30 slots seems unusually small compared to personal character storage and the amount of stuff we can store on Wentworths.
Please give us more slots per rack, and lower the max number of racks per base if you have to.

Steele_Magnolia · 12-21-2008 06:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
30 slots seems unusually small compared to personal character storage and the amount of stuff we can store on Wentworths.
Please give us more slots per rack, and lower the max number of racks per base if you have to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not lower the number of racks. Artificially 'upping the numbers' while decreasings the racks defeats the purposes, and punishes SGs that have already maxed storage space for alternate purposes. I *like* having 8 inspiration bins.

Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
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ArwenDarkblade · 12-21-2008 12:57 PM

I really hate the 30 piece max storage. I mostly hate it because of the Halloween salvage. In my SG, we had one rack for Halloween salvage. Amongst all of us, we managed to collected about 60 full sets of the salvage and had them in the storage bin. When I13 hit, we were woefully over clocked. We now can not add any more to that bin, and have to be careful when removing a set since we can't put it back. I see us running into a similar situation with Candy Canes.

Please remove the 30 piece limit, even if it's only a special one for holiday salvage.

@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog

Steele_Magnolia · 12-21-2008 02:14 PM

SG Member: "So-and-so took ALL the candy canes!"

Me: "It's okay! It was an accident, I've got them. He took them all instead of clicking individually, and couldn't put them back. I've got the rest."

Result:

1. SG Misunderstanding, thankfully averted hard feelings.

2. And now I've got the candy canes and anyone who wants them has to come to me for a character - to - character transfer instead of getting them out of the base.

Thanks, devs.

Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
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Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.

Optimus_Dex · 12-21-2008 04:07 PM

30 slots of salvage sems too small. And having to run a character or park a character to pay rent is not fun. I payed the rent Dec. 18 and it pops up rent due Dec.26. constant rent cycle almost begs for a better way to pay if we must. I have many alts and am in 5 Sgs and have to pay rent on most of them personally.