Wow man some good info we all needed. Thx great synopses.
It should be noted that defender slows were buffed so that defenders and controllers should now slow for the same amount - which is the previously controller value.
Very helpful post. Thanks!
I thought Fallout worked through a Quasi-pet nd was NOT containable.
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I thought Fallout worked through a Quasi-pet nd was NOT containable.
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Unless it's changed since Pilcrow tested it, Fallout is still containable.
I tested it a few months ago with a cooperative friend and did not observe any secondary damage numbers on Fallout. After discussing this in various places, I was told it was a quasi-pet. Looking at the City of Data site, it's listed as a pet power.
All right. It's been more than a year since I originally wrote this guide, and since then, there have been a good many changes, both in terms of game effects and in terms of our understanding of the game's internal mechanics. I've finally gotten around to testing those which were believed to change (thanks for checking that, Erydanus). The following information may not be perfectly accurate as of late i8 -- I've tried to test what I can, but there are some limits to how much time I can put in -- but it is as close as we're likely to get.
As most of us have found out by now, the basic concept of Primary powers being better than Secondary, and Secondary powers being greater than Pool powers, a concept that's been echoed around pretty often, is pretty much clutch left over from when the developers thought it easier than discussing the more complex mechanics.
The point of this thread is to list and analyze the different powersets, and the difference between their performance while in the hands of a Controller as opposed to a Defender. Using this and the direct guides, you can find the exact value for Controller secondaries. You can also use this to decide whether the concept you've got going for you would work better on a controller, or a defender.
Short and Sweet
The following characteristics are known through-out the two ATs.
[*]Damage : Controller base scales from 97.8% of Defender damage at level 1, to 84.6% at level 20 to level 50. Direct damage sources can be contained to 170% of Defender damage at level 20 to 50 - this does not apply to quasi-pets or summoned entities. [*]Heal - Other/Aura : Controller healing applies at 88% of Defender healing rates. Test Case : All Defender Primary heals.[*]Endurance Drain : Controller drains operate at around 88% of Defender efficiency. Test Case : Transfusion. This attribute is often rounded against critters.[*]Movement Slows/Recharge Debuffs : Slows have been altered to operate at the same values for both Defenders and Controllers.[*]Control - Disorient/Hold/Fear/Immobilize : Controllers control at 125% of either the duration or magnitude when compared to a Defender power (seems to be mostly duration-based) - Test Case : ThunderClap, Ice Arrow[*]Defense/Resistance Buffs : Controller values are 75% of Defender ones. Test Case : Sonic Barrier, Steamy Mist[*]Damage/ToHit Buffs : Controller values are 80% of Defender ones. Test Case : Siphon Power[*]ToHit/Damage/Defense Debuffs: Controller values are 80% of Defender ones. Test Case : Enervating Field[*]Resistance Debuffs : Controller values should be 75% of Defender ones. Test Case : Sonic Siphon[*]Recharge/RunSpeed Buffs : Controller values are at 100% efficiency of Defender ones! Test Case : Speed Boost[*]Recovery Buffs : Controller values are 100% of Defender ones. Test Case : Recovery Aura[*]Regeneration Buffs: Controller values are 100% of Defender ones. Test Case : Regeneration Aura[*]Knockback/Repel : Controller values are 100% of Defender ones. Test Case : Force Bolt[*]Perception Debuffs : Controller values are 100% of Defender ones. Test Case: Stated by _Castle_.[*]Perception Buffs : Controller values are 80% of Defender ones. Test Case: Clarity, Clear Mind, Tactics.[*]Rez: All rez-other powers are equally efficient for Defenders and controllers.[*]Mez Protection Buffs : These work at 80% effectiveness for Controllers. Test Case: Iakona's Data.[*]Range Debuffs : These appear to be the same for both Defenders and Controllers.
Empathy[*]Healing Aura : 88% efficiency.[*]Heal Other : 88% efficiency.[*]Absorb Pain : This one's interesting. The heal works at 88% of the Defender values, but the self-damage also applies at 84.6% of Defender values (post-20).[*]Resurrect : 100% efficiency.[*]Clear Mind : 80% efficiency on mez protection, 100% on +perception. 90% average[*]Fortitude : 80% on the ToHit buff, 80% on the damage buff, and 75% on the defense buff. All are useful, so taking the average, we get 78.3% efficiency.[*]Recovery Aura : 100% on the recovery buff.[*]Regeneration Aura : 100% on the regeneration buff.[*]Adrenalin Boost: 100% on regeneration, 100% on the recovery, and 100% on the recharge.
Averages to : 93.81%
Force Field[*]Personal Force Field : 75% resistance, 75% defense.[*]Deflection Shield : 75% defense.[*]Force Bolt : 100% knockback, and 84.6% damage (containable to 170% damage). To be honest, at half a brawl, the damage is ignorable, so I'm putting this at 100% rather than the 110% or so that damage would likely set it to.[*]Insulation Shield : 75% on defense.[*]Detention Field : 125% on duration.[*]Dispersion Bubble : 75% on defense, 80% for mez protection. Averages to 77.5%[*]Repulsion Field : 100% on knockback.[*]Repulsion Bomb : 125% on disorient, 100% on knockback.[*]Force Bubble : 100% on repel.
Averages to : 93.3%
Kinetics[*]Transfusion : 88% of the heal, 88% of the endurance drain.[*]Siphon Power : 80% on both sides.[*]Repel : 100% for knockback.[*]Siphon Speed : The recharge and movement buffs and debuffs all operate at 100% effectiveness.[*]Increase Density : 75% for resistances. 80% for status protection, averages to 77.5%[*]Speed Boost : 100% for the recharge, run speed buff, and recovery buff.[*]Inertial Reduction : 100% effectiveness[*]Transference : Endurance drain operates at 72% effectiveness against critters and 87% against players. Endurance recovered is 80% of the Defender value.[*]Fulcrum Shift : 80% effectiveness on all buffs and debuffs.
Averages to : 89.5%
Radiation Emission
[*]Radiant Aura : 88% on the heal.[*]Radiation Infection : 80% on the tohit debuff, 80% on the defense debuff.[*]Accelerate Metabolism : 100% on Recovery buff, 80% on the damage buff, 100% on the recharge and movement speed buff, 80% value for mez resistance. Putting this at 90% average.[*]Enervating Field : 75% on the resistance debuff, 80% on the damage debuff. Putting it at 77.5%[*]Mutation : 100% on the rez, 100% on the recharge buff, 80% on damage buff, and 100% on endurance recovery buff. Putting it at 95% effectiveness.[*]Lingering Radiation : 100% on the recharge debuff, the slow, and the regeneration debuff.[*]Choking Cloud : 125% on hold duration.[*]Fallout : 84.6% damage (no longer containable).[*]EM Pulse : 125% on hold duration, 88% on damage. Although I almost never see this used for damage, I'll place it at 106.5% effectiveness for simplicity.
Averages to : 94%
Storm Summoning[*]Gale : 100% on knockback, 84.6% on damage (containable to 170%). Since the damage is a joke, I'm putting this at 100%.[*]O2 Boost : 88% on the heal, 80% on mez resistance and protection. Putting it at 84%.[*]Snow Storm : 100% effectiveness.[*]Steamy Mist : 75% on both Defense and Resistance.[*]Freezing Rain : 100% on the avoidance mechanic, 84.6% on the (ignorable and uncontainable) damage, 100% on the slow, 75% on resistance debuff, 100% on defense debuff. Putting this at 92% effectiveness.[*]Hurricane : 100% on repel, 80% on tohit debuff, 100% on range debuff. Putting it at 93%.[*]ThunderClap : 125% duration[*]Tornado : 125% on stun duration, 100% on avoidance mechanic, 100% on knockback, 84.6% on (uncontainable) damage. Averages to 102.4% effectiveness - really should be rated higher, since Controllers powers with knockback prevention easily negate the damage difference.[*]Lightning Storm : 84.6% on (uncontainable) damage, 100% on knockback, 88% on endurance drain. Averages to 91%.
Averages to : 95.8%
Sonic Resonance[*]Sonic Siphon : 75% effectiveness.[*]Sonic Barrier : 75% effectiveness.[*]Sonic Haven : 75% effectiveness.[*]Sonic Cage : 125% duration[*]Disruption Field : 75% effectiveness[*]Sonic Dispersion : 75% effectiveness on resistance buff, 80% effectiveness on mez protection, averages to 77.5%[*]Sonic Repulsion : 100% on knockback. Tempted to place this higher due to pet utility.[*]Clarity : 80% on mez protection, 100% on +perception. Averages to 90%[*]Liquify : 84.6% on damage, 100% on knockdown, 100% on hold duration, 80% on toHit debuff, 80% on defense debuff. Averages to 106.6%.
Averages to : 88.7%
Trick Arrow[*]Entangling Arrow : 125% duration.[*]Flash Arrow : 80% effectiveness on tohit debuff, 100% on perception debuff. Averages to 90%.[*]Glue Arrow : 100% effectiveness on slow and recharge debuff.[*]Ice Arrow : 125% effectiveness on hold, 100% on slow and recharge debuff.[*]Poison Gas Arrow : 125% duration on Sleep, 80% on the damage debuff. Averages to 102%.[*]Acid Arrow : 80% effectiveness on the defense debuff, 75% on the resistance debuff, 84.6% on the damage (containable to 170%). Averages to 102%[*]Disruption Arrow : 75% effectiveness on the resistance debuff.[*]Oil Slick Arrow : 100% on the movement slow, 100% of the knockdown, and 84.6% of the damage (uncontainable). 95% average.[*]EMP Arrow : 125% on hold duration, 88% on damage. Although I almost never see this used for damage, I'll place it at 105% effectiveness for simplicity.
Averages to : 100.7%
If you find any errors or miscalculations, please tell me.
Interesting on the Storm Summon since I have a defender and looking at the Controller side you are usually running 80's% efficiency and some powers is a 1 to 1 ratio and the last few actually better on the controller side than the defener..i.e. Thunderclap.
Fascinating?
Great info! Thanks!
Controllers and Defender Primaries : A Guide to Playing with Other People's Toys also known as :
Defenders and Controller Secondaries : What Should I Be?
As most of us have found out by now, the basic concept of Primary powers being better than Secondary, and Secondary powers being greater than Pool powers, a concept that's been echoed around pretty often, is pretty much clutch left over from when the developers thought it easier than discussing the more complex mechanics.
The point of this thread is to list and analyze the different powersets, and the difference between their preformance while in the hands of a Controller as oppposed to a Defender. Using this and the direct guides, you can find the exact value for Controller secondaries. You can also use this to decide whether the concept you've got going for you would work better on a controller, or a defender.
Short and Sweet
The following characteristics are known through-out the two ATs.
[*]Damage : Controller base scales from 97.8% of Defender damage at level 1, to 84.6% at level 20 to level 50. Direct damage sources can be contained to 170% of Defender damage at level 20 to 50 - this does not apply to quasi-pets or summoned entities. [*]Heal - Other/Aura : Controller healing applies at 88% of Defender healing rates. Test Case : All Defender Primary heals.[*]Endurance Drain : Controller drains operate at 88% of Defender efficiency. Test Case : Transfusion.[*]Movement Slows/Recharge Debuffs : Controller slows operate at 125% of Defender efficiency - this is a magnitude difference for every power I've been able to test.[*]Control - Disorient/Hold/Fear/Immobilize : Controllers control at 125% of either the duration or magnitude when compared to a Defender power (seems to be mostly duration-based) - Test Case : ThunderClap, Ice Arrow[*]Defense/Resistance Buffs : Controller values are 75% of Defender ones. Test Case : Sonic Barrier, Steamy Mist[*]Damage/ToHit Buffs : Controller values are 80% of Defender ones. Test Case : Siphon Power[*]ToHit/Damage/Defense Debuffs: Controller values are 80% of Defender ones. Test Case : Enervating Field[*]Resistance Debuffs : Controller values should be 75% of Defender ones. Test Case : Sonic Siphon[*]Recharge/RunSpeed Buffs : Controller values are at 100% efficiency of Defender ones?! Test Case : i5 values of Speed Boost/Siphon Speed[*]Recovery Buffs : Controller values are 75% of Defender ones? Test Case : i5 values of Speed Boost.[*]Knockback/Repel : Controller values are 100% of Defender ones. Test Case : Force Bolt[*]Perception Debuffs : Controller values are 100% of Defender ones. Test Case: Stated by _Castle_.[*]Perception Buffs (clicks) : Controller values are 100% of Defender ones. Test Case: Clarity, Clear Mind[*]Perception Buffs (toggles) : Controller values are 80% of Defender ones. Test Case: Iakona's data.[*]Rez: All rez-other powers are equally efficient for Defenders and controllers.[*]Mez Protection Buffs : These work at 80% effectiveness for Controllers. Test Case: Iakona's Data.[*]Range Debuffs : These appear to be the same for both Defenders and Controllers.
Empathy
[*]Healing Aura : A simple aura heal, 88% efficiency.[*]Heal Other : A simple heal, 88% efficiency.[*]Absorb Pain : This one's interesting. The heal works at 88% of the Defender values, but the self-damage also applies at 84.6% of Defender values (post-20).[*]Resurrect : 100% efficiency.[*]Clear Mind : 80% efficiency on mez protection, 100% on +perception. 90% average[*]Fortitude : 80% on the ToHit buff, 80% on the damage buff, and 75% on the defense buff. All are useful, so taking the average, we get 78.3% efficiency.[*]Recovery Aura : 75% on the recovery buff (estimated).[*]Regeneration Aura : 75% on the regeneration buff (estimated).[*]Adrenalin Boost: 75% on regeneration, 75% on the recovery, and 100% on the recharge. Averages to 93%.
Force Field
[*]Personal Force Field : 75% resistance, 75% defense. Putting this at 75%, although to be honest, both are overkill even on the Controller version.[*]Deflection Shield : 75% defense.[*]Force Bolt : 100% knockback, and 84.6% damage (containable to 170% damage). To be honest, at half a brawl, the damage is ignorable, so I'm putting this at 100% rather than the 110% or so that damage would likely set it to.[*]Insulation Shield : 75% on defense.[*]Detention Field : 125% on duration.[*]Dispersion Bubble : 75% on defense, 80% for mez protection. Averages to 77.5%[*]Repulsion Field : 100% on knockback.[*]Repulsion Bomb : 125% on disorient, 100% on knockback. Since the disorient only shows up around 30% of the time and is pretty short, I'm putting this at 105%.[*]Force Bubble : 100% on repel.
Total : 92.5% effectiveness
Kinetics
[*]Transfusion : 88% of the heal, 88% of the endurance drain. Controllers can use Transfusion to get containment for a short time (go figure).[*]Siphon Power : 80% on both sides.[*]Repel : 100% for knockback.[*]Siphon Speed : 0.2 self-recharge modifier for both defenders and controllers, so 100% for the self-buff part, which most people focus on. Run Speed feels like 100%, and enemy slow appears to be 125% effectiveness. Putting this at 110% effectiveness, tenatively.[*]Increase Density : 75% for resistances. 80% for status protection, averages to 77.5%[*]Speed Boost : 100% for the recharge and run speed buff, 75% for the recovery buff. Putting this at 85% effectiveness.[*]Inertial Reduction : uh... Does this even really matter? I'm going to have to put this at 100%, I honestly can't tell a difference in jump height or speed.[*]Transference : tested to 66% effiency on both drain and recovery in i5, also stated to that in Ladios_Sopp's guide. Can anyone confirm?[*]Fulcrum Shift : 80% effectiveness on all buffs and debuffs.
Radiation Emission
[*]Radiant Aura : 88% on the heal.[*]Radiation Infection : 80% on the tohit debuff, 80% on the defense debuff.[*]Accelerate Metabolism : 75% on Recovery buff, 80% on the damage buff, 100% on the recharge and movement speed buff, 80% value for mez resistance. Putting this at 87% average.[*]Enervating Field : 75% on the resistance debuff, 80% on the damage debuff. Putting it at 77.5%[*]Mutation : 100% on the rez, 100% on the recharge buff, 80% on damage buff, and 75% on endurance recovery buff. Putting it at 90% effectiveness.[*]Lingering Radiation : 125% on the recharge debuff, 125% on the slow. Putting at 125%.[*]Choking Cloud : 125% on hold duration.[*]Fallout : 84.6% damage (containable to 170%). Averages to 127%.[*]EM Pulse : 125% on hold duration, 88% on damage. Although I almost never see this used for damage, I'll place it at 105% effectiveness for simplicity.
Storm Summoning[*]Gale : 100% on knockback, 84.6% on damage (containable to 170%). Since the damage is a joke, I'm putting this at 100%.[*]O2 Boost : 88% on the heal, 80% on resistance buffs. Putting it at 84%.[*]Snow Storm : 125% on slow, 125% on rechage debuff.[*]Steamy Mist : 75% on both Defense and Resistance.[*]Freezing Rain : 100% on the avoidance mechanic, 84.6% on the (ignorable and uncontainable) damage, 125% on recharge debuff and 125% on slow, 75% on resistance debuff, 80% on defense debuff. Putting this at 98% effectiveness.[*]Hurricane : 100% on repel, 80% on tohit debuff, looks to be 100% on range debuff. Putting it at 93%.[*]ThunderClap : 125% duration or magnitude (conflicting reports).[*]Tornado : 125% on stun duration, 100% on avoidance mechanic, 100% on knockback, 84.6% on (uncontainable) damage. Averages to 102.4% effectiveness - really should be rated higher, since Controllers powers with knockback prevention easily negate the damage difference.[*]Lightning Storm : 84.6% on (uncontainable) damage, 100% on knockback, 88% on endurance drain. Averages to 91%.
Sonic Resonance[*]Sonic Siphon : 75% effectiveness.[*]Sonic Barrier : 75% effectiveness.[*]Sonic Haven : 75% effectiveness.[*]Sonic Cage : 125% duration[*]Disruption Field : 75% effectiveness[*]Sonic Dispersion : 75% effectiveness on resistance buff, 80% effectiveness on mez protection, averages to 77.5%[*]Sonic Repulsion : 100% on knockback. Tempted to place this higher due to pet utility.[*]Clarity : 80% on mez protection, 100% on +perception. Averages to 90%[*]Liquify : 84.6% on damage (containable to 170%), 100% on knockdown, 125% on hold duration, 80% on toHit debuff, 80% on defense debuff. Averages to 106.6%.
Trick Arrow[*]Entangling Arrow : 125% duration.[*]Flash Arrow : 80% effectiveness on tohit debuff, 100% on perception debuff. Averages to 90%.[*]Glue Arrow : 125% effectiveness on slow and recharge debuff.[*]Ice Arrow : 125% effectiveness on hold, slow, and recharge debuff.[*]Poison Gas Arrow : 125% duration on Sleep (which will actually happen post-i7), 80% on the damage debuff. Averages to 102%.[*]Acid Arrow : 80% effectiveness on the defense debuff (it still has it, right?), 75% on the resistance debuff, 84.6% on the damage (containable to 170%). Averages to 102%[*]Disruption Arrow : 75% effectiveness on the resistance debuff.[*]Oil Slick Arrow : 125% on the movement slow, 100% of the knockdown, and 84.6% of the damage (uncontainable). 103.2% average.[*]EMP Arrow : 125% on hold duration, 88% on damage. Although I almost never see this used for damage, I'll place it at 105% effectiveness for simplicity.
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Largely, this suggests the design implied for Defenders and Controllers. A player wanting to focus on buffs, with some notice put to heals and debuffs, will benefit most from playing a Defender rather than a Controller. A player wanting to control first, then help team members or who finds the base buffs 'good enough', should then pick a Controller.