Martial Arts / Super Reflexes - The Advanced Guide
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2005-03-07 19:05 in Player Guides
Hi. Just started working on my MA / SR scrapper. Finding it a bit difficult to get the hang of. Got a few questions for ya though about it.
Is the build you are posting a respec'd build or one that a player can use to get started right off the bat?
I'm a bit concerned about the few slots that you've put into Focused Fighting, especially for a beginning */SR player. Isn't the whole point of a Super Reflexes scrapper to have awesome defense and not actually get hit? For defense prior to Practiced Brawler and Agile, all you've got is the one slot in FF. Seems like that would get a lot of people killed right off the bat. I have a lot of problems staying alive at 14 with 6 slots in FF and 5 in Agile (yes, I know its weird and my attacks are underslotted, hence the whole reason of trying to find a guide, I've still got the free respec so I can always chage).
Is this basically a Blaster way of doing things, i.e. slot up your attacks first, worry about everything later kinda thing? As you can see, I've got a lvl50 Blaster, so I'm used to going without defenses. I think I may have gotten the mindset that since I'm now playing a character that actually HAS defenses, I've got to get them built up first.
That is clearly a post-respec build.
No /SR scrapper should EVER wait that long for Practiced Brawler.
The pre-respec build should have some actual defenses... this could be a viable post-respec build, I'm in no position to judge that.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Kinda thought it was, but I asked just to be sure. I don't know the numbers about what power contributes how much percentage, if I was overslotting FF and Agile, etc.
I'd probably use that as my template once I get to Elude level or 40ish.
I would however like to see a guide for the beginning SR scrapper. For instance, is there a defense cap for melee and ranged? How many slots in FF, FS, Agile, etc does it take to get to that cap?
Again, I'm used to being blaster with no defenses, so this whole actually being able to avoid stuff is new to me and not being the one-hit wonder. 
I'm interested in what you said about Warrior's Challenge. In my experience, Warrior's Challenge seems to have a real problem with stopping runners. However, I HAVE had it stop runners before. As I've never played any other Scrappers, I can't compare it to the Scrapper version of Taunt. (Now called Confront) However, I know the Tanker version of Taunt was much better at stopping runners, even before it was changed to an auto-hit AoE.
The numbers that I have seen for Warrior's Challenge say that it has a +15% chance to hit, while the other Taunts had only a +5%. Tanker Taunt was listed as +50%, before it was auto-hit. But of course, those numbers are for the chance of a successful TAUNT, not whether or not that taunt would stop a runner.
From my observation, I was assuming that first the taunt had to "stick", and then if the foe was running, there was a chance that he would stop. If he did not, then the change in aggro (if there was one) meant that now he was running from the Scrapper, instead of whoever he was running from before.
Now, but Provoke and Confront, in the Power Pool, require a to hit roll, and unlike Taunt there is no bonus, it is just the base chance to hit. So my assumption was that Warrior's Challenge actually had the highest chance to hit of any Scrapper Taunt, but it was just simply so low a chance that the chance that it would hit AND stop a runner was pretty low. Again, if anyone can say that Confront on a Scrapper has a tendency to hit often, and brings back runners, then I would say something is wrong with Warrior's Challenge.
In the end, BTW, I respec'ed out of Warrior's Challenge and took Challenge instead, to open up Intimidate. I found Intimidate MUCH more useful, and in fact it has occasionally stopped runners, although more often it makes them run. This depends on the level, even con foes tend to be stopped by it. However, this is when they have not taken a lot of damage, if they've been forced into "run mode" by damage, it may be harder to "scare" them out of it. Also, some foes like Sorcerers will ALWAYS flee when hit with Intimidate.
Very nice guide, tpull. I like how you went over the less common powers of MA. Oh, and thanks for referencing my guide! 
If it's alright with you, I'd like to quote your comments on CS and CAK in the next version of my guide (once Issue 4 comes out, probably).
Tulzar, you certainly can. Thanks for the compliment.
Jade_Dragon, I could usually tell when Warrior's Challenge landed, but it didn't seem to 'stick' with them long enough for me to reach them, prior to getting Super Speed. They would stop for a second, look at me, and then still jump over the edge of the freeway and run away! I saw my buddy Red Haven use his Taunt so much more effectively, I threw mine in the trash with disgust at the first Respec.
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
Good comments and good questions, guys.
Dark_One, this build does happen to be post-Respec, hence the Advanced title of the thread, but my original build was actually worse. I originally did not take Super Speed until much later, taking me tons of time to get places. Since I had taken Warrior's Challenge, I did not get Stamina until later as well. Yet I was able to get along just fine with my original 'horrible' build, even before I Respeced into the normal method of getting Stamina at 20, and a travel power earlier.
So the short answer is yes, you can do well with this build starting out, and you can even do well with a 'worse' build.
Smersh, this is actually about the time I took Practiced Brawler in my original build, I totally did not understand the benefits of status protection when I first started. If I were to change anything, though, I agree, it would be to take PB sooner, but my preference in powers would be to actually push back the Fitness Pool, and end up with Stamina at 22. For those who insist on Stamina at 20, you'll have to make the choice on whether to postpone Crane Kick, Focus Chi, or skip a travel power like Recall Friend, or whatever you may have had in its place.
This is why I like that these are "Guides," not people pretending to be the ultimate arbiters or rulers of what works and what doesn't. Looking at the PB placement some more, I already want to change my guide!
I would probably keep both Recall Friend and Super Speed where they are for the time-saving aspects myself, which can actually help you to level faster than an additional attack power or something, just by reducing the time you are not in combat, earning xp.
Crane Kick is really handy to get that attack at level 8, so I wouldn't want to move that. And being able to use Focus Chi the very next power enables you to double your damage output at times, which is great, so I wouldn't put PB ahead of it there. I would put it at 16. With being able to use CABs anytime, the beneficial effects of PB really help more than getting Stamina at 20, IMO.
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
Ok, I think taking the passives are a waste. Hear me out here. You take all three passives and slot them with six slots. That equals 15 slots that are wasted getting the passives up to a total of 22% defense for each. Now lets say you take all the toggles and give them two slots each, with end reducers in them. Total 3 slots and 20% defence. This is how I built my scrap and I can run FF, FS, Evasion, weave, focused acc, tough, combat jumping all constantly throughout a +2 mish without any endurance problems, of course i have conserve energy popping every time it comes up.
Dark_One, let me describe my state of mind with my character, and it might tell you why my build is the way it is. Smersh is wrong in the sense that this cannot be a pre-Respec build, one of my main points in posting a build guide was to show the versatility of the SR set.
By that I mean this: you can go toggles or Elude, or a combination of both, but there was this wide-spread perception that you had to go toggles first before Elude, and then Respec, which has resulted in a ton of cookie-cutter SR builds, precisely when SR should have the largest variation of builds, compared with most other power sets.
I wanted to stress that there has been no FS, no Evasion, and only one slot in FF, and the MA/SR Scrapper could still excel, so as to encourage non-cookie-cutter builds, and promote a greater variation with experimenting with the build.
For my philosophy, MA is still the Primary power set, which is stronger, which means you should focus on building your primary first; this was the sense I got from day one when I first read the power set descriptions.
Also, damage is king at the lower levels. If I have a choice between doing more damage to a minion and taking him out one punch sooner, that's one more of the mob out of commission earlier, which means fewer attacks on me, which means fewer hits trying to get past my defenses. Add that in with the normal Scrapper role of doing the most damage in melee, my build is meant to be a fun, blaster-like attack dog kind of thing.
Martial Master Build-Specific Notes:
1. A key part of this strategy includes a larger role for Cobra Strike, which many MA builds skip. I led off with the attack constantly, allowing me to pummel one baddie, while the other was stunned. A stunned opponent means he's not pummeling you, which means my attacks are more useful if they are slotted up, as opposed to my defenses, which are not getting tested nearly as much while my opponents are stunned.
2. If things do start to over-power my defenses, Super Speed allows me to get to safety most of the time, and once you break the habit of scrapperlock, a speedy withdrawal can save you from tons of debt. Many of us forget to do this sometimes, but if you can remove yourself from danger so quickly, this also gives you a small reason to focus on attacks more, and still allow you to run relatively lesser defenses, since retreat is usually a viable option (especially in real life. Here in the game, though, many players swear to jump in and stay in, no matter the consequences!). The increased movement speed also drastically cuts down the time needed to move to the next ranged opponent gunning for you and take him down. Those seconds saved in battle add up, just by reducing the time you're taking damage, as opposed to normal running speed, and the additional hits you'll be taking in a more protracted battle.
3. The utility of MA with SR means your knockback ability can often give MA/SR Scrappers more of a "rest" from attacks than other primary Scrapper sets. The knockdown from Dragon's Tail, the knockback from Crane Kick, and the Disorient from Thunder Kick, Cobra Strike and Eagles Claw all help to reduce the time your enemy is attacking you, so again it helps to have them slotted well; the more often your enemies are dizzy or on their backs, the less you have to pay attention to your defenses. Builds with other primaries may find it more necessary to focus on their defenses earlier.
I have the old saying in mind, "the best defense is a good offense." In almost every game I pay, whether it's Starcraft, Risk, Chess, Stratego, Enterprise Encounter, Monopoly, whatever, fortune almost always favors the bold who strike first, often, and hardest. I approached this game with the same thoughts.
One of the big things to remember with SR is that although the point is not to get hit, these abilities take a long time to really shine. Elude is what really makes one of the biggest differences, which does not come until level 38. The other defensive powers build in strength as you go, but your attacks are actually more effective in the early stages. I front-loaded my offense, and as I reached the higher levels I focused on filling out my secondary, at the time when I was a high enough level, and the SOs would really contribute, in my opinion.
So that's the major thinking in this specific build, and hopefully I have proven by virtue of actually doing it that you can get to a perma-Elude mode without going the all-toggle route first. It's one of the few unique places I think I have managed to contribute to the SR discussions.
That said, since the SR set is still fairly robust, you have many choices on what to do next:
You may focus on your passives into perma-Elude, as I did.
You may still decide to go all-toggles first, then Respec into Elude.
You may get Elude for situational use, fully-slot your toggles, and put your passives on the backburner, comparatively.
There are several ways to go. If I do MA again, I will probably skip Storm Kick and try the Crippling Axe Kick/Disorient-oriented build, to see how well it performs. My next SR is probably going to focus on toggles, just to do a different build myself. Let me know which way you decide to go, which way is more fun for you.
One gap in my knowledge is the efficiency of Quickness, and if there is merit to getting it sooner, that maybe it should be placed earlier on the build over another power. I'd be interested to hear opinions on that. Let me know if you have more questions.
Thanks,
-TP
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
Thank you for your response tpull. I'm going to give my free respec back from I3 a try out on Test and see what it's like. I do know I am having massive problems with the way my MA / SR is set up now (for one thing, getting rid of Warrior's Challenge for right now. Why oh why did I take that power???)
I'm still getting hit fairly often and not surviving for very long with 6 slots in FF, 5 in Agile (both slotted with DO's so far, 2 end redux and 4 defense / resist, can't remember which, in FF). My attacks are very underslotted with 2 each in Storm and Thunder Kick, 1 in Cobra Strike.
Like I said, this was my attempt at overcompensating for coming from being a blaster with no defenses, other than Stealth and Hover, to a character that has defenses. Figured I could get those up first, and be able to survive long enough to deal out the damage with underslotted attacks. That is not, however, the case.
I'm still not quite sure which route I would take with this character, either toggles or perma-Elude. I'm not really a big fan of perma-anything, so I'll probably end up going the toggle route.
I understand its the 'advanced' guide. It's just that the others that have SR in them are old enough (and not updated too much, if at all) for any changes included in I3 and possibly even I2. Just trying to make sense of this powerset.
[ QUOTE ]
Dark_One, let me describe my state of mind with my character, and it might tell you why my build is the way it is. Smersh is wrong in the sense that this cannot be a pre-Respec build, one of my main points in posting a build guide was to show the versatility of the SR set.
By that I mean this: you can go toggles or Elude, or a combination of both, but there was this wide-spread perception that you had to go toggles first before Elude, and then Respec, which has resulted in a ton of cookie-cutter SR builds, precisely when SR should have the largest variation of builds, compared with most other power sets.
I wanted to stress that there has been no FS, no Evasion, and only one slot in FF, and the MA/SR Scrapper could still excel, so as to encourage non-cookie-cutter builds, and promote a greater variation with experimenting with the build.
[/ QUOTE ]
I actually played out MA/SR with just FF and the passives to 50 (no respec, I still have all 4). From my experience, taking the passives at 24, 28, and 30, and not slotting FF at all is going to make life very difficult for an SR scrapper. My main tactic revolved around luring foes into melee range where my lack of FS was not an issue and relying on a well slotted FF. I'm all but certain that Freak tanks will kill that slotting prior to elude, even with the speedier dragon's tail. Plus, with agile so late, at the very best you have zero ranged defense from 1-23, 12% at 24, 18% from 25-26, and 22% at 27, fully committing all those slots. Doing so means DT can't be well slotted as a fast damage mitigator until 29. The 20s are going to be very rough with this slotting progression.
This makes the lack of challenge an interesting flaw. I have challenge, and I didn't use it primarily on runners, I used it as a pulling tool. If you have just FF, no FS, and no tough, you are not going to run into a scattered crowd of +2s, you're going to die. Challenge is how I managed to hunt Talos from 19-22 at least before SOs and with piddly ranged defense (and at least I had agile already).
I'm one of those people that believe there is a lot of versatility in the SR set in the sense of elective toggles, but I think the choice of selecting the passives so late and denuding FF of slots is too extreme, I know it wasn't easy the way I played out. Having 24% melee defense and no other defense at all in most of the 20s would have been bordering on suicide solo.
And end draining - that one slot in FF is defense, and FF drains enough END to want to at the very least slot one end reduce in there.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I have to agree, Arcanaville, the 20s was tough to go solo in Talos, and that's part of why I had to mention right at the start that this was definitely not an uber-build or a solo AV-killer machine or anything like that, that this was my build done for fun. I think the other SR guides already in existence have adequately covered the regular builds.
I suppose the standard reply is just to group more often, but at that point if I was not in a group, I would just pick my battles based on what I had tested out that I was capable of handling. Of course, it took a couple of trips to the hospital before I determined what those upper limits were at that level...
A smarter choice for me at that level, actually was to hunt in IP, and skip Talos for a while. I found for SR, the 5th and the Family were easier to handle than phase-shifting Ancestor Spirits and Tsoo teleporting-Sorcerors, in terms of time taken to defeat them (plus, I like beating up nazi-lookin' thugs).
My original, worse build I was telling Dark One about had Agile much earlier, but that delayed things like Super Speed and Stamina. The marginal increased defense did not outweigh the better benefits of reduced downtime by traveling faster and recovering END faster to get back to the xp earning, in my mind. I'm not sure if there's a way to quantify the tradeoff and measure the extra trips I took to the hospital by sacrificing defense for speed and offense.
For all the other Scrapper secondaries for which I have alts, I definitely take more of my defensive secondary earlier, but SR's defense addition just didn't seem to stack up enough to make it a priority to add them. Especially when I was in groups, and did not have all the aggro.
Depending on what your build was, Arcanaville, my above-average reliance on Cobra Strike may be what enabled me to survive this route. I had it slotted with two Accuracy Enhancements in the beginning, with 2 Disorient Enhancements. Perhaps I should have mentioned that earlier, since this latest version is a result of Respec in that one sense involving CS. Even when I had Agile earlier, I did not slot it.
Crane Kick also gave me ample time to switch from one opponent to another, so I could jump into a group of +3s, stun one with CS, kick another on his butt, and pound the other one with Focus Chi activated. Dragon's Tail only helped that more, and I could even handle a group of eight white-conning Tsoo Ink Men that were stealing my super speed in IP.
Another good point you have is, Endurance use is very troublesome for much of the build, so I used every CAB I had, and often alternated between having an END Reducer and a Defense Enhancement in my FF slot.
I'm not sure if I have mentioned this enough or stressed this, but part of my thinking (maybe natural, since I'm from Las Vegas) is a gambler's excitement. This build is actually designed not necessarily to have the easiest time of going solo, but to see how much damage you could do fast, and see if you could take down a particular group before they did you in. Many players do not have the temperament to try going through the game without beefing up their defenses more, so this build might not be for you if it looks too daunting to be fun. But it is doable, and definitely different from the majority of the AV-killer builds that are commonly made.
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
Roger, your build is another way to go, and it definitely works. My increased tempo did not allow me the patience to activate three separate animations each time I wanted to battle (more if you didn't have Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave up already). Prior to Conserve Power, though, could you still run all of those toggles constantly, or did you have a lot of downtime, even with the END Enhancements? Or did you have to pick and choose which ones to run at one time prior to level 41?
I wouldn't call the passives a waste at all. They aren't taken until later, and there are other SR guides that also show Dodge and Lucky taken at levels 28 and 30. Maybe you mean more that slotting them with the huge number of slots is a waste? To be fair, did you have to put those other 12 slots into your other defensive powers, the Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping, because then we're still both devoting the same number of slots to defensive powers (although the benefits are definitely different). From my perspective, slotting toggles earlier would have meant trade-offs in my offensive slotting. With selecting passives instead, I did not have to agonize over those choices. By skipping the toggles, I reduced many possible END problems, had more slots for offense, and reduced the time it took for me to jump into battle by at least four seconds per battle, since running around with them all activated all the time is an unecessary drain and often delays you even more with computer lag, in my experience.
I'm assuming when you say two slots each, you are including the one given for default for each power, for a total of two slots per each toggle. That does save you on slots in the long run, but since I never slotted Agile anyway, my build allowed me to go from level 1 to 28 without worrying about slotting choices like that. By the time I was willing and able to slot them up, I could spare the slots. MA has five attacks, mine are fully slotted, as are Hasten, Stamina, Elude, and Conserve Power. I still found room to fully slot the passives, get a recharge rate on Focus Chi that works best for me personally, and still spare a range Enhancement for Teleport. For the marginal improvement for the sixth slot in the passives, you could easily move those around to Cobra Strike, Focus Chi, or Focused Accuracy, depending on your tastes.
If I was willing to skip Eagles Claw for the sake of better dps, I would have five more slots to toss around as well, but that one is just too fun for me to skip! Those slots might go to FF, but I don't really need something like that unless I want to be an AV killer, in which case my build would be totally different anyway.
One other thing worthy of note, contrary to what I read on the boards of most SR players, I did not have a large problem with AoE attacks prior to getting Lucky. I have no clue why my experience was so much better in that regard, but with Practiced Brawler on auto-fire, it's not like I would get knocked down or anything anyway.
(edited for spelling)
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
I want to say your comments have been great. I encourage you to post your builds here if you wish, to show the diversity of build styles. I wanted to show every newcomer to the game and people who have not played SR the advantages of it being more "free" to variant builds than other power sets. My personal build experience is targeted specifically to proving that you don't have to slot toggles and then Respec out of them later, not for max dps, not for AV efficiency, nor anything else (unless you want to count my personal enjoyment).
Your comments have shown already how the build could be more defensive, more efficient, or both, which helps to emphasize how different the build paths can be and still be successful. I definitely went the way of offense over defense.
I still want to hear from all CAK-ers (those who specialize their build to include the Disorient effects of Crippling Axe Kick), and I would still like to see a build that has somehow managed to fully slot five attacks, the toggles, passives, and Elude. I'm guessing that build would not have Hasten in it, which would reduce the attack rate, though.
And hey, I read guides were rated often, who do I have to Thunder Kick around here to get at least a couple stars? Maybe if I kick myself I'll start seeing stars...
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
[ QUOTE ]
I want to say your comments have been great. I encourage you to post your builds here if you wish, to show the diversity of build styles. I wanted to show every newcomer to the game and people who have not played SR the advantages of it being more "free" to variant builds than other power sets. My personal build experience is targeted specifically to proving that you don't have to slot toggles and then Respec out of them later, not for max dps, not for AV efficiency, nor anything else (unless you want to count my personal enjoyment).
Your comments have shown already how the build could be more defensive, more efficient, or both, which helps to emphasize how different the build paths can be and still be successful. I definitely went the way of offense over defense.
I still want to hear from all CAK-ers (those who specialize their build to include the Disorient effects of Crippling Axe Kick), and I would still like to see a build that has somehow managed to fully slot five attacks, the toggles, passives, and Elude. I'm guessing that build would not have Hasten in it, which would reduce the attack rate, though.
And hey, I read guides were rated often, who do I have to Thunder Kick around here to get at least a couple stars? Maybe if I kick myself I'll start seeing stars...
[/ QUOTE ]
Based on your posted build, I think its fair to say that it isn't so much offense over defense but travel-power utility over defense. My scrapper went superjump, which gave me vertical movement and pretty good overall travel speed, replacing superspeed and teleport in your build. In place of CAK I had jump kick, which does great knockdown against tough targets like freak tanks (it was just hilarious cycling JK as fast as it recharged on the Kronos Titan).
Separate from that, my passives came in earlier by displacing recall friend and bumping everything else down a bit. Where your build has more offense is in slotting - the 5 slots in FF I eventually added were taken from MA attacks, but that's about an average loss of one slot per attack on the way up prior to 6 slotting, not too bad (actually it was deep in the 40s when everything was 6 slotted, it was 5/6 for a good stretch in the late 30s).
Tsoo sorcerers are a pain for everyone, but you can avoid them - ink men are what SRs can fight in Talos that most people try to avoid. If you have PB and perma-hasten, its very hard to be detoggled even with 4 inkmen, and even if you are detoggled, its usually for a split second only (other scrappers can actually be held for several seconds if their mez protection breaks, ours can't be shut off so we break mez fast if we get mezzed at all).
To fully 6-slot 5 attacks, passives, toggles, and elude is 60 slots, and unfortunately, you only get 67. Thats seven slots left for hasten, stamina, health, Focus Chi, and epic powers (aka conserve power), assuming you don't slot travel. Its probably a very rare slotting configuration. I have heard of 4 attack plus passive + toggle builds, but they generally aren't perma-elude builds, and do not need to heavily slot either elude or hasten. They do generally need stamina.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Managing your toggles isnt a big deal to me. It is of course the best to switch em on for certain mobs. But yea I can run all those toggles (FF, FS, Evasion, Weave, Tough, Focused Acc, Combat Jumping) constant. That is with two end reducs in FF, FS, EVASION. One end reduc in weave, two end reducs in tough, Three end reduc in Focused ACC, and an end reduc in Combat jumping. Without conserve power though, I might have to rest maybe once in a mish, depending on the size. Plus this build gives me the option to go perma elude with all toggles for a total defense of 124% melee and ranged with 114% AOE. That is a little tougher managing the toggles though
[ QUOTE ]
Managing your toggles isnt a big deal to me. It is of course the best to switch em on for certain mobs. But yea I can run all those toggles (FF, FS, Evasion, Weave, Tough, Focused Acc, Combat Jumping) constant. That is with two end reducs in FF, FS, EVASION. One end reduc in weave, two end reducs in tough, Three end reduc in Focused ACC, and an end reduc in Combat jumping. Without conserve power though, I might have to rest maybe once in a mish, depending on the size. Plus this build gives me the option to go perma elude with all toggles for a total defense of 124% melee and ranged with 114% AOE. That is a little tougher managing the toggles though
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, if you are only getting 124%, that sounds like a build with no quickness or hasten, so elude is maybe 5-slotted rech 1-slotted defense. 72% + 5-slot passives 20% + 3-slot toggles 32% would be 124%. Drop one slot on lucky and 2 in evasion and that would be 114% defense. Or it could be some other slotting configuration that brings weave and combat jumping into it.
Regular perma-elude with hasten and quickness gives 84% + 22% +5% = 111% defense. If I need more melee, I flip on FF which is 5+1 slotted, for 151% melee, 111% ranged/AoE. I don't have any way to get better ranged defense; it does get tempting to respec in FS, no slots and endreduce, to get 131% ranged. Without elude, I'm stuck at 62% melee, 22% ranged, and I think 18 or 20% AoE. Its good enough for unyielding missions, but dicey for invincible.
Even with all those end reducers slotted, those toggles burn a ton of end. Do you slot end reduce in your attacks also, or do you pace your attacks (outside of elude or pre-elude)?
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I do have perma-elude via perma hasten. My build.
Exported from version 1.4A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary Powers - Ranged : Martial Arts
Secondary Powers - Support : Super Reflexes
01 : Focused Fighting endred(01) endred(3)
01 : Thunder Kick dam(01) dam(3) dam(5) dam(5) dam(7) endred(7)
02 : Storm Kick dam(02) dam(9) dam(9) dam(11) dam(11) endred(13)
04 : Focused Senses endred(04) endred(13)
06 : Focus Chi recred(06) recred(15) recred(15) recred(17) thtbuf(17) thtbuf(19)
08 : Crane Kick dam(08) dam(19) dam(21) dam(21) dam(23) endred(23)
10 : Practiced Brawler recred(10)
12 : Hurdle jmp(12)
14 : Health hel(14)
16 : Combat Jumping endred(16)
18 : Super Jump jmp(18)
20 : Kick (Fight) dam(20)
22 : Tough endred(22) endred(25) damres(25) damres(27) damres(27) damres(29)
24 : Weave endred(24)
26 : Dragons Tail dam(26) dam(29) dam(31) dam(31) dam(31) endred(33)
28 : Hasten recred(28) recred(33) recred(33) recred(34) recred(34) recred(34)
30 : Stamina endrec(30) endrec(36) endrec(36) endrec(36) endrec(37) endrec(37)
32 : Eagles Claw dam(32) dam(37) dam(39) dam(39) dam(39) endred(40)
35 : Evasion endred(35) endred(40)
38 : Elude recred(38) recred(40) recred(42) recred(42) defbuf(42) defbuf(43)
41 : Conserve Power recred(41) recred(43) recred(43) recred(45) recred(45) recred(45)
44 : Focused Accuracy endred(44) endred(46) endred(46) thtbuf(46) thtbuf(48) thtbuf(48)
47 : Laser Beam Eyes dam(47) dam(48) dam(50)
49 : Cobra Strike disdur(49) disdur(50) disdur(50)
The power were not picked in any particular order, just showing the build. I am problably going to get rid of weave and get quickness on next build.
Roger, I see you went END reduc instead of ACC on your attacks. I know my Eagles Claw is the only attack without an ACC, and I whiff on that one more than the others. Did you have any ACC Enhancements slotted before you were able to take Focused Accuracy? If not, it looks like the recharges in Focus Chi may have helped make up for more misses in general.
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
Yep had ACC in the slots where I have the end reduc's. You have to have at least one accuracy in each really. Or you will go crazy missing.
Hmm, by my calculations, you should have (with even SOs) 84% from elude, 20% from having the three toggles, for 104% defense to everything. Then weave, combat jumping, and hasten give you an additional 9% (about), 5%, and 5% respectively to melee and ranged, 123% total.
Its actually an interesting build, toggles instead of passives in a perma-elude build. The passive equivalent burns 12 slots (4 extra in each passive to get to 20%) to your 3. But then you need more endred in FA, and you slot your attacks with endred (I don't). You burn two additional power slots (weave/CJ). I like it actually: it gets to about the same place by a radically different route, which is neat.
The one thing about this build that must make it a bit hectic is that you have three powers cycling - hasten, PB, and elude, and without quickness, PB and elude are a bit tight, you have to be really on the ball to cycle those properly. So much so that I'm wondering if you actually have PB on auto, and you click hasten, since it has the better overlap.
Plus, retoggling the 1-5 toggles that go down every other elude crash must keep you busy.
Something to consider: weave is giving 9% to melee/ranged, and CJ is giving 5% to melee/ranged. 14% total. If you dropped both and took dodge and agile, dodge would be 12% defense to melee, and agile would be 12% defense to ranged, 2% less than weave/CJ, but with zero end cost and they can't be detoggled. It seems a good trade, unless my weave/CJ numbers are out of date.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Arcanaville hit the nail on the head for me. The passives can't be de-toggled, which is always a pain, but that dovetails quite nicely with the Elude END crash. After hearing some tankers complain about END crash and toggle-drop, I figured I didn't want to hassle with it. With MA/SR being such an END hog already, it made me more partial to passives.
The trade-offs involved make me think that SR is actually one of the more balanced power sets to choose from these days; either build is viable, but it doesn't let you have your cake and eat it too.
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
As of 5/20/2005, it looks like the Issue 4 Update changes to Elude are here to stay.
(The change getting rid of perma-Elude is perma 
)
That makes this guide a little outdated, so I will be working another character up the ranks for an updated guide, one that explores a toggle build, which is what SR has left.
Now let me see how long it takes a non-perma-Elude character to get up to level 50. (gonna need some coffee...)
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
[ QUOTE ]
As of 5/20/2005, it looks like the Issue 4 Update changes to Elude are here to stay.
(The change getting rid of perma-Elude is perma )
That makes this guide a little outdated, so I will be working another character up the ranks for an updated guide, one that explores a toggle build, which is what SR has left.
Now let me see how long it takes a non-perma-Elude character to get up to level 50. (gonna need some coffee...)
[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably, not that much longer than a perma-elude SR scrapper.
Levels 1-40 should go just like before, pretty much; perhaps faster, if, like me, you originally ran with a toggle-lite build to 38 and then perma-elude past 40, and perhaps faster yet if, like me, the EPPs didn't originally become available until you were deep into the 40s.
The irony of ironies is that the lack of perma-elude *might* steer you away from activities that, while fun, were not xp-efficient. Fighting AVs, for example, or doing a lot of shard missions (I say *might* - these activities are not impossible, and scrappers being scrappers, that which does not kill us is hardly worth fighting, for many).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
This is an advanced guide in the sense that I will skip the basic descriptions of each power, since those are easily found elsewhere.
Martial Arts is relatively straight-forward, and I direct you to the excellent Martial Arts - A Comprehensive Guide (v3.1)
by Tulzar.
Super Reflexes has a bit more versatility to it. This guide will describe my build, discuss the other options a player could go, slotting, and address some of the controversies involving these power sets. Please note that my build is not "optimized" for taking out +5 AVs, I have made several choices strictly because I find them fun.
1. My Build
2. Pool Powers
3. Slotting
4. The Toggle Versus Elude Debate
5. Conclusion
Some powers I won't dwell on. Not much needs to be said about Thunder Kick, for example. Cobra Strike, however, merits some discussion!
1. My Build:
Exported from version 1.4D of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary Powers - Ranged : Martial Arts
Secondary Powers - Support : Super Reflexes
01 : Focused Fighting defbuf(01)
01 : Thunder Kick acc(01) disdur(3) dam(5) dam(7) dam(11) dam(11)
02 : Storm Kick acc(02) dam(3) dam(5) dam(7) dam(15) dam(27)
04 : Cobra Strike acc(04)
06 : Recall Friend inttim(06)
08 : Crane Kick acc(08) dam(9) dam(9) dam(13) dam(13) dam(15)
10 : Focus Chi recred(10) recred(27) thtbuf(36) thtbuf(36)
12 : Hasten recred(12) recred(17) recred(17) recred(19) recred(19) recred(25)
14 : Super Speed endred(14)
16 : Swift runspd(16)
18 : Hurdle jmp(18)
20 : Stamina endrec(20) endrec(21) endrec(21) endrec(23) endrec(23) endrec(25)
22 : Practiced Brawler recred(22)
24 : Agile defbuf(24) defbuf(29) defbuf(31) defbuf(43) defbuf(46) defbuf(50)
26 : Dragons Tail acc(26) recred(36) recred(37) dam(37) dam(37) dam(45)
28 : Dodge defbuf(28) defbuf(29) defbuf(31) defbuf(45) defbuf(45) defbuf(48)
30 : Lucky defbuf(30) defbuf(31) defbuf(34) defbuf(46) defbuf(46) defbuf(50)
32 : Eagles Claw dam(32) dam(33) dam(33) dam(33) dam(34) dam(34)
35 : Teleport rng(35) rng(40)
38 : Elude recred(38) recred(39) recred(39) recred(39) defbuf(40) defbuf(40)
41 : Conserve Power recred(41) recred(42) recred(42) recred(42) recred(43) recred(43)
44 : Teleport Foe rng(44)
47 : Focused Accuracy endred(47) endred(48) endred(48) thtbuf(50)
49 : Quickness runspd(49)
-------------------------------------------
01 : Brawl acc(01)
01 : Sprint jmp(01)
02 : Rest recred(02)
Level 4 - Cobra Strike (CS) is skipped often, but it is actually very useful. Playing solo, and up against a boss and three minions? You can Disorient the boss and take out one or two pesky minions. That Tsoo sorcerer keeps healing your enemy? Lay him out with a CS and proceed to take out the enemy, or knock out the sorcerer; he can't teleport away while he's stunned. Same effect on Avalanche Shamans and the like. There will be a few levels where it doesn't help much, but when you reach 40+, it comes in handy again. If you can spare the slots, two Accuracy SOs and two Disorient SOs will really make this a good power.
Level 6 - Why Recall Friend? Because time is money. The last member of your team who doesn't have a travel power yet? You can reach him from across the map. Your next Hollows mission is deep in purple enemy territory? Save your teammates from a risky journey (unless they like that sort of thing). This one power saves teams a ton of time. You can Respec out of it later, but I've even had it prove useful helping all four of my teammates get out of Eden after a Task Force, with much appreciation.
Level 8 - I take Crane Kick before Focus Chi because I needed three attack powers to start a good attack chain.
Level 10 - Two To-Hit Buffs and two Recharges make Focus Chi cycle fairly well in a battle. You can always add more Recharges if you can spare the slots, but at the higher levels, you're juggling Hasten, Practiced Brawler, and Elude and/or your toggles, so only two Recharges works well for my toggle management.
Level 14 - Super Speed works well with MA Scrappers because once you get into a team, you'll spend some time chasing down runners, or picking up a final hit on stragglers. It also helps to position yourself well to draw aggro so your fellow Blaster can go Nova without fear. But of course, travel powers are the most subjective things on each build, nothing set in stone here.
Level 22 - Practiced Brawler. I just love this power. I made it auto-fire instead of Hasten, and it's saved my life countless times.
Level 26 - Your only AoE attack, Dragon's Tail (DT) is not picked by some MA Scrappers, who want to be a single-target damage per second (dps) killing machine. However, this is a really fun power. I never get tired of getting ten-to-twenty bad guys around you, then knocking almost all of them on their respective keisters!
Level 32 - Eagles Claw (EC) is also skipped sometimes due to its long animation time. I slotted this one with all six damage, partly as an experiment to see how much damage I could really do. It works well right after firing Focus Chi, and has a neat animation. Again, if you are concentrating on dps, this might not be for you. Since SR is slot-heavy, skipping EC or DT may make it a lot easier for you in slotting choices.
Level 35 - My one luxury slot, I put a second Range Enhancement in here, and have tons of fun teleporting directly into the tunnel to head for another zone. (Too bad they don't let you TP directly into the tram entrance...)
Level 38 - Even most toggle players take Elude and slot it fully to use as an emergency button. More discussion below.
Level 41 - Conserve Power has turned out to be so useful in END management, I fully-slotted it against my original plans. It dovetails perfectly with Elude, so just before your END drops, you can hit Conserve Power, and actually gain back END while you fight.
Level 44 - With no flight, this was taken primarily to help get some badges against flying opponents, and in anticipation of PvP, where it might be useful. Plus, it's just plain fun!
----
The Martial Arts powers not taken:
Warrior's Challenge (WC) - This power deserves explanation, if only for the reason that nobody ever takes it. WC does not act like any other Scrapper Taunt. It duplicates the Challenge power from the Presence Power Pool. I have spammed WC endlessly at Trolls running away from me in Skyway city, and it still does not stop them from leaping over the edge and running away from me. The other Taunts in each Scrapper primary all duplicate Provoke from the Presence Power Pool. Note that they are not PBAoE (point-blank area of effect) Taunts like Provoke. The Scrapper Taunts are all single-target Taunts. However, Warrior's Challenge is a Challenge type Taunt, not a Provoke type like all the others, so is not very useful.
Crippling Axe Kick (CAK) - This is skipped by most players, but there is a way to use it. It deals about the same amount of damage as Thunder Kick, but also has the potential to Immobilize your opponent (and it will automatically Slow your opponent, according to the game manual). This secondary effect of the power can be used in tandem with the secondary disorient aspects of Thunder Kick, Cobra Strike, and Eagle's Claw. Add in Air Superiority from the Flight Power Pool, and you have a Scrapper designed to stun opponents, with as many Disorient Enhancements as you feel each power needs. Storm Kick can be skipped in this case, or a solo Scrapper might take CAK in place of Dragon's Tail. That said, this is a relatively rare build, and comments from people who have successfully used it would be good testimonials in this guide for this build variation.
----
2. The Power Pools
Concealment
Tons of players use Stealth, but I hate not being able to see my character. Much of this use is subject to whether it fits in with your character design and your role-playing preferences. I have seen Stealth skipped a lot simply because it did not fit in with the designer's plans for her character.
Fighting
Boxing is usually regarded as a waste, but necessary pre-requisite to getting Tough or Weave. However, if you have taken Crippling Axe Kick, here is another Disorient effect that may be of use.
Tough is a good variant to take if you don't want to take two travel powers like I did. You can see several videos of an SR Scrapper taking out AVs, and Tough is in the build. It is worthwhile to note, though, that this power is by no means necessary to play an SR Scrapper. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to have this power if you don't want it. I could not justify taking Boxing or Kicking just to get this, myself, unless I changed the parameters of my build.
Fitness
Swift - Perma-Eluders will often run Elude, Quickness, and Swift, and forego the Hasten/Super Speed route. If I drop anything in Respec, though, I might trade this in for Health.
Hurdle - Not nearly as useless as many players believe, this is especially useful for Super Speeders for vertical movement.
Health - Many times an SR Scrapper can be one-hit by an AV, but there are times when you will be hit by a minion, and then the AV will kill you. A little bit of Health can sometimes make the difference, getting you up to just the right point when your luck runs out, where the AV will finally hit you, but you have already recovered your Health form the minion attack, and you are still in the game. Also decreases your downtime (and time is still one of the most precious commodities there is, which automatically makes this a consideration).
Stamina - Most players swear by it, and some contrarians spit on it. I find it useful, but it is also possible to make almost any build without it. MA/SR is particularly heavy on END use, though, so I find it worthwhile, in part because I also like the minor benefits of your first two pool powers for Scrappers, and do not view them as a wasteful pre-requisite.
Flight
Flying Scrappers are just neat!
Hover - Get out of those nasty Caltrops now!
Air Superiority - Very handy if you want to design an AV-killer.
Fly - One of the better ways to navigate the Shadow Shard for later.
Leadership - Not for MA/SR! Trust me, you have enough toggles to worry about, this would be a mistake.
Leaping - Nothing bad here, but with Practiced Brawler, you won't need Acrobatics. Most Scrappers won't bother with Jump Kick.
Medicine - A common Pool choice for SR Scrappers, Stimulant is more worthwhile in groups than Aid Other, but the real gem is Aid Self, which can save you when you don't have any heal Inspirations. If I didn't have three powers from the Teleportation Pool, I might have taken this.
Speed - Hasten is not necessary, but the extra defense is handy, and I enjoy the rapid action. If I didn't take and Super Speed, my build might go the way of taking CAK to make a Disorienting specialist Scrapper. If your opponents are stunned a lot, the extra speed isn't vital, and you won't need to cycle your attacks with Hasten as much. Quickness can make up for a little bit of the lack of Hasten.
----
3. Slotting
As in most games, the key to most things is offense. I usually try to maximize my attack slots first, and fill in the passives whenever I can spare it. I was torn between the final slot on each passive, and putting them in Cobra Strike instead. Oh, for three more slots...
An Enhancement to reduce the Endurance Cost in Super Speed made a small but noticeable improvement in my ability to mange END, considering how fast you can use it up in non-stop fighting.
Many people put a second Recharge Reduction in Practiced Brawler. With six-slotted Hasten, I -haven't had many problems.
----
4. The Toggle versus Elude Debate
Using four Recharges will make Elude perma at level 39 with a six-slotted Hasten, and there is an intense debate about whether this should be changed. I will address the two options first, and attempt to put to rest a couple of mis-perceptions later.
Toggle build: Focused Fighting (FF), Focused Senses, Evasion. This build can be done, and can be successful. There are players out there (I have met them!) Who do not take Elude at all. Most seem to take Elude as a situational or emergency power for when everything hits the fan. The drawback to this is toggle and END management. Add in Practiced Brawler, and sometimes Hasten, Conserve Power, Tough, and/or Weave, and you're a busy little bee, pressing tons of buttons. Don't forget, you've also got to pop a Focus Chi into your attack chain every now and then as well. These players tend to learn what types of enemies have AoE attacks, which will insist on ranged attacks, and which ones will close to melee, all so they can shut down a toggle or two to conserve END. I confess, I'm too lazy to do this.
Other primary powers will have fewer attacks than MA, and will allow for better slotting of toggles and passives together, and still allow you to slot Elude for emergencies. I confess I do not know of another MA/SR that has done this, so if you have, please post here so we know at least one person has accomplished it somehow!
Perma-Elude: Definite benefit to your defense, with an END-crushing toggle-drop at the end. I enjoy this style very much, and I don't even need to run it all the time. A good healer on the team, and you won't run this for an entire mission. Conserve power and END Inspirations will help mitigate the drawback, as will Speed Boost and other END buffs form your friend (so play nice with others!)
The Controversy:
There are a lot of calls for Elude to be nerfed, but too much of this call is based on the idea that it renders the rest of the SR secondary useless. I can declare this is not so through personal experience. There are eight other powers in the SR set.
Many players skip Quickness altogether, so for the purposes of this discussion, it is irrelevant.
Practiced Brawler and the three passives, Agile, Dodge, and Lucky, are always taken. Always. I have seen one build by an ignoramus who didn't take these in my entire time of playing. That leaves the three toggles.
Focused Fighting you get automatically, you can't ditch it, whether you choose to use it or not. I never added another slot in my FF, from day one.
This means that you might take Focused Senses and Evasion, and Respec out of them later when you take Elude. So the calls that Elude makes everything else useless really mean it makes two powers superfluous.
But wait, even this is not so.
I took Focused Senses once, and did a Respec within a week. I just did not like the extra motion-freezing time it added with Focused Fighting already. I skipped Evasion entirely, and went straight to Elude. This was a build choice, based on what I wanted. Even if I didn't have Elude, I might not have taken these two toggles. I would have gone for another Pool Power set like Fighting or Medicine. Add in the fact that I never slotted my FF, and you have a build that would have automatically drifted towards elude from the start, even before they changed it with the Issue Update. So when someone tries to post that Elude makes people not like Focused Senses or Evasion, I can easily say Elude had nothing to do with me not taking powers I already did not want.
The point is, Elude does not make the rest of the set useless, and the two little powers that you don't take, you might not have taken in the first place, making that argument irrelevant.
The rest of the Elude debate will center around comparisons with other powers from other sets and Archetypes, and calls for making it non-perma, which is beyond the purview of this guide.
----
5. Conclusion
Although END-heavy, this is a fun combination build, with quite a few Pool Power alternatives for good playing. MA has more good attacks with nice animations than most other sets, which can be good for players who hate a monotonous two- or three-attack rhythm, and like to mix it up a bit.
SR can be played a couple different ways, whereas most other builds generally seem to be falling into one cookie-cutter type of way to go. Personally, I like the options that allow for either perma-Elude or toggles, and feel that it gives SR a unique extra bit of freedom involved in game choices.
Thank you for your time, and have fun!
-TP
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp