Post 24
Choices are even tougher now. By the time you get to level 49, you will gain an additional 10 powers. (In my case, 11, since I got rid of X-ray in respec). Which 11 to choose, then?
First, my rationale for the choices I made:
I spend maybe ¼ to 1/3 of my time solo, so I want my build to do that well. You can handle any small group fairly easily (again, within reasonable limits). So in this part of the guide, Im talking about groups of 7 or more bad guys, such as the Freaks in Creys Folly or mobs in Portal Missions. Personally, I recommend taking on mobs which con up to Red Bosses, for a fairly risk-free encounter. You can handle purples, but the time spent may not be as efficient, as well as there being a higher attendant risk involved. Whites and yellows may be too easy for you, and obviously wont give as much xp as Oranges and Reds.
I generally alternate the two level 9 powers (EM pulse, available at 32, and Atomic Blast, available at 38). For AB, I go up invisibly (SS and Stealth), hit Aim, sometimes EF if I think its needed, then AB. Most, if not all, fall at this point. Any that remain are choking from the fallout and are quite hurt. Easy to pick off at that point (after you pop an endurance inspiration, if needed). Also, feel free to use Insights and Enrages -- they get replenished as the mobs fall.
When AB is recharging (or before you get it), I use EMP. Again, run up invisibly, cast RI and EF, hit Aim, then EMP. You can alternatively cast RI and EF after the EMP, I suppose. At this point, I spam my 2 AoEs, Irradiate, and Neutron Bomb. There is a downtime in between the casting of these two powers, however, so I use that time to hit with either NB or CB any Bosses or LTs the objective is for all to fall at the same time, if possible. Of course, EMP stops your endurance regeneration for a few seconds. The hold, however lasts a fairly long time long enough for you to spam enough of your AoEs to arrest the mobs (especially if you use Enrages) even while you slow down to recover endurance if needed (assuming you dont have endurance inspirations on you). Whatever inspirations the mobs drop should fuel you for the next go.
If Im in a team, I dont always use EMP and/or AB. If things are going well, meaning they are not needed, Id rather keep them in reserve for a time when a genuine Oh sh*t! moment does arrive
OK, 11 powers to choose, so here we go:
I firmly believe that 3 should be taken as soon as they are available, and I have yet to meet anyone who thinks otherwise: CB at 28, EMP at 32, and AB at 38.
CB Great single target damage, albeit from a relatively short range. The range should not bother you since you are probably standing next to your debuffed target(s) anyway. If it hits, its a guaranteed Disorient on minions and LTs. I 6 slot this, all damage. With EF going, and having used no inspirations, one-shots a white minion, and with just 1 NB, takes out an Orange. (Assumes +3 enhancements, by the way). With Perma Hasten and AM, recycles fast enough to perpetually Disorient an LT.
EMP One of the best holds in the game. Large (40 foot) radius. You lose endurance recovery for a few seconds after, though. Most people I know 6 slot this, and with good reason. Im still not certain how best to slot it, however. 3 recharges means it comes up every 100 seconds. 6 recharges brings it back every 75. Acc can never hurt, but then again, I always pop Aim before I use it. End reduc helps because it does eat up quite a lot, and hold enhancements are obviously nice, but then again, the hold lasts pretty long as is (less long the higher con the mobs are though). I currently have it 5 slotted 3 recharge, 1 acc, 1 hold. I would like to hear a discussion on this particular point from any high level rad/* person reading this post.
AB Huge damage blast, but drains all your endurance (meaning your toggles will drop). Already discussed above. I 6 slot, all damage.
3 down, 8 to go. As the above discussion indicates, I recommend taking Aim before lvl 32 (for use with EMP).
Aim For a short period, increases both your accuracy and your damage. As such, I always use before I hit EMP and/or AB. Necessary? No. But useful.
7 powers left. Again, from the earlier discussion, you know I took 2 AoE powers Irradiate and Neutron Bomb.
Irradiate I have heard people claim that the damage of Irradiate does not scale up with level. This is false. In fact, Irradiate does more net damage than Neutron Bomb. It hits everyone within a radius around you for ten ticks of damage over a relatively short period of time. Comes with a 30% defense debuff on those it hits. Lots of different ways of slotting
Some people slot it to increase the debuff. I dont, because as I said earlier, I use it as a damage attack. I find the debuff fine as is, and I always have RI going anyway. I currently have it 6 slotted, all damage. At various times, I put in recharge or end reduc
Recharge because it helps my AoE cycle (with Neutron Bomb) have less downtime, end reduc because it does eat up a fair amount of end. I suggest you tinker with it, and find what suits your needs best, regarding the situations you face most frequently. But I would highly recommend 6 slotting it.
Neutron Bomb Think of it as a long-range Irradiate that does slightly less damage. Also has a longer animation (cute, though). Relatively low level priority as regards slotting, in my view, but a 6 slotter later on in your career. (In other words, I did not slot here until after I had fully slotted CB, EMP, AB, Irr, and the other important ones in the pre-24 build).
These are the 5 attacks I use then. Two single target attacks, both six slotted for damage (NB and CB). Two AoE attacks, also 6 slotted for damage (Irr and Neutron Bomb). And our Nuke, AB, also 6 slotted for damage. Plus, I picked Aim.
Now a brief discussion on the three secondary powers I did NOT pick:
X-ray I used it earlier, but dropped in favor of Irradiate. Discussed above.
Electron Haze Good damage, and hits more than one target. A lot of good rad/rad players swear by it, and with good reason. There are some drawbacks, though, if you can call them that. First, EH can knock some of the targets out of your debuff zone. Second, some players dont like cones. I do not dislike cones, per se, and in an ideal world, I would use EH. But again, given the tightness of the build, some powers had to go, and I chose to forego EH. I am more than satisfied with my single target attack chain of NB and CB, and my AoE chain of Irr and Neutron Bomb (with the occasional single target attack in between).
Proton Volley Typical Snipe: good range, accuracy, and damage, but interruptible and with a fairly long activation. Good power if you like sniping. And some good players I know use it, and use it well. You can start off by going to maximum range and sniping your target. Then as it comes in, apply your debuffs. And again, with unlimited power choices, I would like to have it, but it was another I chose to forego. See above for my attack chains, and why I dont feel I need another attack power.
And there is one power from the primary set which I have not yet discussed:
Fallout Never had it, whether on test or live. Never thought of getting it. Dont know anyone who has ever had it on live. All I know about it is what Ive read. Therefore, I do not really feel qualified to comment on it, in fairness to it. HOWEVER
given the description you can basically use your body as a mini-bomb after you fall in combat. Ok, better to have the power than not to have the power if it were free. But again, the opportunity cost would be huge (Id rather have any other power in either of the powersets) because the marginal utility it would provide me would be less than any other power.
So we started with 11 powers available, took 3 no-brainers (CB, EMP and AB), one useful support (Aim), and 2 AoEs (Irr and Neutron Bomb), which leaves us with 5 available powers.
Even more than the above recommended powers, these are pretty much subject to your own taste/preference/playstyle. PV and EH would be good choices. Mutation, as I said earlier, is as good a res as any in the game. I personally took Super Jump because I feel it is overall the best travel power. I also recommend Acrobatics, because I hate being Knocked Down. You may take Phase Shift (and the required Invis or Grant Invis). Tough to go wrong, really, at this point.
Well, this guide ended up being much longer than I thought it would be. If someone finds it helpful, though, then it would have been worth the time and effort I put in.
I acknowledge that there is and should be no one best way to build a hero, but here are my thoughts on the matter. Perhaps some of my choices may not be to your liking. I have, however, presented them in what I consider an intelligent and thoughtful manner. I would like to believe I have made no baseless assertions, but rather have argued for my point of view with sufficient support. I welcome any intelligent discussion on any of the points I have made.
Rae rad/rad defender on Virtue
Excellent guide. I'm lvl 49 rad/rad and most likely have a very similar build to yours. I don't have irradiate, mainly because it didn't fit my build requirements. If I could get one more power, that would probably be it. But with Epic PPs coming, that ain't gonna happen.
As far as the slotting of EM Pulse that you asked for comment, I personally only have it three slotted with holds. I have perma-AM and perma-Hasten, so its recharge time is pretty short (I don't have numbers but it's back pretty quick). Now, if you use it every fight, or want to use it every fight, you would need recharges, but I only use it for larger groups that might sneak in some hits through RI. I find that alternating AB and EMP between the large groups I come across has them both recharging in good time. I don't put any end reducers because once I pop it, the only things I generally need to run are RI and EF and my attacks, and end. regenerates more than fast enough, or at worst, a catch a breath will set me right.
And there is a definite point in the game where you probably should respec., even if you're doing pretty well with your build. I found that low/mid 30's, as the ATs I generally grouped with (everything but blasters) began to get their defining powers, things like Leadership pool powers were not nearly as helpful. So, I found, that when I respec'ed to a build that was much tougher (like the suggested SS and Stealth combo, amongst others) it actually helped when I grouped. The longer you can survive, the more beneficial you are to a team. And one of the greatest things about a rad/rad is, what helps you in solo play, also helps in group play. Nearly every skill in the set is beneficial to you and a group.
Thanks for the kind words.
And since you brought it up, I guess I'll toss in a few more words about power pools.
I know a number of defenders take up the leadership pool, and there is good logic to that. Slotting tactics, for example, would mean that they wouldn't need to put that extra acc enhancement in their attacks, substituting damage instead.
I don't believe rad/rad really needs something like tactics, though. Another reason why I like rad/rad which I forgot to mention above, is that the rad secondary is the most "accurate" of them all. A lot of the powers have a built-in chance to bypass defenses, and most of the powers reduce defenses when they do hit. Add the fact that RI is usually cast first, there is already a good chance to hit, and every subsequent hit makes future hits even more likely.
So the leadership pool never even tempted me. If there is one pool power among the current that I would really like to take it would be Fighting, primarily for Tough, and secondarily for Weave. I am a big fan of damage resistance, even more than defense, because resistance scales so much better than defense against higher cons.
I cannot imagine which of my 4 power pools to drop, though, to take up Fighting. I do not want to lose Hasten. I want to keep the ability to remain invisible (Stealth and Super Speed). Oh, and I forgot to mention above that Stealth also gives a pretty decent defense buff. I do not want to give up Stamina. I like the defense and utility of Combat Jumping and Acrobatics, and for ease of life, I really do not want to give up Super Jump. So that's pretty much that.
Which 4 power pools do you currently have? Any thoughts from other rad/rads?
R'ae on Virtue
I have to say I pretty much agree with both your assessment of the Rad/Rad guides and the build you have going here. I see some of the Rad/Rad guides out there and just go, Huh? What an idiot. My build is very similar to yours, and when I respec at 28, after Cosmic blast, will probably be doing some of the same things. I love Proton Volley and X-ray, but at least one of em's gonna have to go to free up space for other stuff.
Ionitron
Rad/Rad level 26
Thanks for the kind words as well. Once you get Cosmic at 28, I'm pretty sure that will soften the blow of your having to get rid of either X-ray or Proton or both. I'm confident you will agree that Cosmic is far superior to either. Good luck, and happy hunting.
Kudos on an excellent, well-written guide. I have a level 24 rad/rad on Freedom that I like to play because of its versatility. I made a few different choices than you did on my way to 24, but as you said, some powers are a matter of personal preference.
I have a question about your playing experience and its connection to the powers that you chose, however. I'm in a supergroup that spans the level range from 1-45. We all team fairly often and regularly, and I'm seriously considering picking up the leadership buffs (maneuvers and tactics) at 26 and 30. The reason is simple: often we operate in an environment that is far too dangerous for characters joining us to handle. RI may provide excellent coverage for me to play wisely with a small team within 2-3 levels of each other, but on large teams, often there is a gap of 6-7 levels between the highest team member and the lowest SK'd team member. For this reason, I've slotted RI with Acc debuff rather than 3/3 Acc/Def debuff in the hopes of keeing my fellow teammates alive a bit longer.
I wonder if eventually 6-slotting Tactics will be more effective for teams in the long run. I'll do some math and see what the relevant break points are.
What do you think?
Tactics is a buff.
RI is a debuff.
Against higher level things, buffs are always better.
3-slotted with defense debuffs against +4's RI provides 29% defense debuff.
6-slotted tactics would provide well over 33% acc buff. Which is much more handy most of the time.
Buffs are better against higher-level mobs because debuffs scale.
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Against higher level things, buffs are always better.
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There may be an imbalance between the two, but buffs aren't exactly working in a vacumn.
Say you have a damage buff that adds 50% to your damage. Fine, against a +1 Mob you're at 90% effectiveness so you're dealing 90% of (100 + 50) = 135%. You would have been dealing 90% without the buff, so the buff brought you 90% of 50% = 45%. Now suppose you have a debuff that amplifies damage by 50%, same scaling applies, same end result.
If you want to leave the realm of damage, Accuracy Buff and Defense Debuff work towards the same end--making you hit more often. Unfortunately there have been contradictory statements by the developers about how Accuracy buffs work. However the scaling pattern is the same. Your base chance to hit a mob is 75%. +1 level drops that to 68%. Notice that 75% * 90% = 67.5%, which rounds to the 68% figure tossed about. Your inherent accuracy declines by the same amount a Defense debuff would.
Under construction
So do I six-slot Rest after respec then?
Actually, it is a bit disconcerting (but inevitable I suppose) that all the builds are starting to work out to be the same. It is good they are making some other pp and more powers so we have some diversity.
Good job on the guide.
Erratic (and DodgerTA) have already provided numbers as regards your tactics question, and personally, I always defer to Erratic as regards the math.
Beyond just the strict math, though, my question is again one of economics -- you're getting these 2 powers at these points in your career (26 and 30). What are you giving up? Is it worth it? I cannot answer that for you. Offhand, though, what you are getting incrementally, is already provided in some fashion by RI. I understand your desire to augment these even further. But I would not drop EF or a travel power in order to get it though (I assume these are not what you are thinking of dropping).
Also, make sure that the situation you describe (level range of 6 or 7) is more the norm than the exception. In other words, I would not design my hero for such a situation if it were fairly rare. And even if it does occur more often than not, are things likely to remain the same? i.e. The lower levels will level significantly faster than those higher up, so assuming it's pretty much the same gang, the level gap will narrow more and more. Just take these into account when making your decision.
Thanks for the kind words.
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Thanks for the kind words as well. Once you get Cosmic at 28, I'm pretty sure that will soften the blow of your having to get rid of either X-ray or Proton or both. I'm confident you will agree that Cosmic is far superior to either. Good luck, and happy hunting.
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Good guide. My lvl 29 rad/rad is fairly similar to yours, with one exception. I have only NB as a single target attack. I had XB and respecced at lvl 25 to get rid of it. But I 6-slotted it, along with NB, early. I don't think you should take XB at all to help you with the early game unless you intend to slot it. And it is useful until you get perma-hasten, at which point you don't need it anymore. I do miss those beams coming out of my eyes though. 
CB's activiation time is 2.1 seconds vs. 1 sec for NB. So each CB you throw takes the place of 2 NB's. How much damage does the CB do compared to the NB, assuming equivalent buffs? It would have to be considerably more than 2x the damage per shot, or I'm not sure it's worth using the power and the slots for it.
- felicity
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CB's activiation time is 2.1 seconds vs. 1 sec for NB. So each CB you throw takes the place of 2 NB's. How much damage does the CB do compared to the NB, assuming equivalent buffs? It would have to be considerably more than 2x the damage per shot, or I'm not sure it's worth using the power and the slots for it.
- felicity
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The disorient is the kicker. NB leaves the enemy with a mild -def defbuff. CB leaves them with that same debuff AND unable to attack AND detoggled.
Thanks for the kind words as well, and also to everyone else. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head (and I somehow can't find the Brawl Index -- a good reference, by the way), but I'm fairly certain that CB does more than twice the damage of NB. And as also pointed out by the previous poster, there's the Disorient as well.
Even beyond these reasons, though; even if we assume no disorient and even if we assume CB does just exactly twice NB's damage -- I would argue that it would still help your attack chain achieve a significantly higher DPS.
For simplicity's sake, let's assume NB does 100 damage and CB does 200. Your math, in this sense, is correct: NB does 100 with a 1 second activation time. Do this for 8 seconds, let's say, and you do 800 damage. CB does 200, at 2.1 sec activation, it will do 800 in 8.4 seconds. Therefore, better to just stick with NB. However, in an actual attack chain, facing a bad guy with 800 hit points, using NB alone would take 8 seconds. What happens if we toss in CB? Try this chain (each line takes 1 second to do):
CB -- 200
NB -- 100
NB -- 100
NB -- 100
CB -- 200
NB -- 100.
Bad guy is arrested in 6 seconds, instead of 8. Toss X-ray in there and you achieve an even higher DPS. I chose to forego X-ray despite this loss to DPS because I felt my hero would be better served with another power. But not CB, even if it were just double the damage of NB (and it's more, plus the disorient).
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Thanks for the kind words as well, and also to everyone else. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head (and I somehow can't find the Brawl Index -- a good reference, by the way), but I'm fairly certain that CB does more than twice the damage of NB. And as also pointed out by the previous poster, there's the Disorient as well.
Even beyond these reasons, though; even if we assume no disorient and even if we assume CB does just exactly twice NB's damage -- I would argue that it would still help your attack chain achieve a significantly higher DPS.
For simplicity's sake, let's assume NB does 100 damage and CB does 200. Your math, in this sense, is correct: NB does 100 with a 1 second activation time. Do this for 8 seconds, let's say, and you do 800 damage. CB does 200, at 2.1 sec activation, it will do 800 in 8.4 seconds. Therefore, better to just stick with NB. However, in an actual attack chain, facing a bad guy with 800 hit points, using NB alone would take 8 seconds. What happens if we toss in CB? Try this chain (each line takes 1 second to do):
CB -- 200
NB -- 100
NB -- 100
NB -- 100
CB -- 200
NB -- 100.
Bad guy is arrested in 6 seconds, instead of 8. Toss X-ray in there and you achieve an even higher DPS. I chose to forego X-ray despite this loss to DPS because I felt my hero would be better served with another power. But not CB, even if it were just double the damage of NB (and it's more, plus the disorient).
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I still come up with 8 seconds on that sequence you outlined. That is because CB has a 2.1 second activation time. If you count from the top, you'll see it comes to 8 seconds (forgetting about the .1's.) I think you may be confusing recharge time with activation time. If superior recharge time were the only factor in favor of NB, it would always improve your DPS to cycle in the higher damage power. But since XB and CB are 2-second activation powers, they will always take the place of 2 NB's as an opportunity cost. Unless they are doing 2x or more the damage, your DPS is lessened, though your DPE may still be better. I know for sure with XB your DPS is less once you have perma-hasten, but XB still has better DPE than NB. Once stamina and AM are perma though, I found that End was not much of an issue. Hence, I got rid of XB.
Still, there's 2 points I can see in favor of taking CB. First is the aforementioned disorient. It's a question of how often it works, especially against bosses. Second is the issue of server lag. Server lag will slow down a constant NB sequence more so than one with longer recharge attacks worked in. And finally there's the issue of what the actual damage ratio between the two is. If you can do me a favor, check it next time you log. I don't need the exact numbers, just the rough ratio between the two. I am thinking about whether to take CB at lvl 30 or not.
- felicity
Thanks for the reply. My particular build has what I consider the most useful powers in the radiaion primary so far--RI, AM, EF, LR, and RA. I also have hurdle/swift/stamina as well as hasten and my travel powers (recall friend/teleport). I also picked up Mutation at 24 at the behest of my SG mates. HAsten and AM are perma for me now.
At this point I only have 2 attack powers, NB and XB. Both serve me well sa high DPS attacks for a low enough END that I can use them pretty constantly with my current toggles up. Both are 6-slotted for damage, although I may reallocate those slots if I decide to spec out XB at some point.
As I progress in levels and add more slots to stamina, AM, and EF, I'll be able to maintain a similar END recovery rate while running the leadership toggles, so it's not an Endurance economy that I'm worried about. I was really wondering if I could 6-slot RI with all ToHit Debuff and make up for the difference in DEF debuff with 6-slotted Tactics. Erratic seems to have answered my question.
The two powers I would sacrifice for the leadership toggles are most likely going to be Electron Haze and Irradiate. I plan on going for Neutron Bomb and Atomic Blast as soon as they're available, so really the question is whether I want to become primarily a support character with a good ability to solo (I've been able to solo any misisons thrown at me thus far) or a more soloable character with great ability to support.
I guess I'll have to do the respec mission and copy over to the test server to try things out for myself. I know I'll probably never have the AoE ability of the Fire Blaster (Fire Breath does a LOT of DoT), but I wonder if the AoE attacks in the radiation set can make for a viable AoE soloer.
hmmm....I imagine I have to fit Aim in there at some point as well...
You're right, I was thinking of recharge, not activation when I wrote that. Sorry, lack of sleep (real-life duties, not game-playing, though.)
I just checked in-game, and with equal slotting, I'm getting a ratio of 3.5:1 for CB damage to NB.
And the activation really doesn't feel like it's more than twice as long... I could be wrong though, or maybe my clicking on NB isn't perfectly efficient -- but I doubt that I can fire off 2 NBs instead of 1 CB...
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I guess I'll have to do the respec mission and copy over to the test server to try things out for myself. I know I'll probably never have the AoE ability of the Fire Blaster (Fire Breath does a LOT of DoT), but I wonder if the AoE attacks in the radiation set can make for a viable AoE soloer.
hmmm....I imagine I have to fit Aim in there at some point as well...
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In terms of raw damage, we're not quite at the level of FireBreath and Fireball for AoE damage (and on my blaster, I even begin with Tripmine first). However, we have at least 3 advantages vs. the fire AoE blaster that I can see, from my experiences playing both:
1) We don't mind having LTs or Bosses in the group. Because of our debuffs, we can survive rather well even if we don't kill all of the bad guys in our Alpha Strike.
2) We can heal ourselves.
3) We can do our AoE attacks after we EMP. So even if we don't have the same "Kill all during the Alpha Strike" capability of the blaster, we have the luxury of facing defenseless mobs while we go on with our Beta and even Gamma strike.
With Irradiate and Neutron Bomb fully slotted, yellows take around 3 attacks to fall (Irr, Bomb, Irr). Reds take around 5, if I recall correctly. If you use a steady supply of enrages, though, the results are even better of course -- and since you're taking on large groups, the inspirations get replenished really well.
In other words, I PREFER my rad/rad as an AoE soloer to my Fire/dev blaster, which I built and levelled specifically to be an AoE soloer.
But even if you don't go that route, I recommend you keep Irradiate over Neutron Bomb. It does more damage, and it activates significantly faster (though I really do find the Bomb animation cute). Bomb's one advantage is that you can throw it from range, but most rad/rads are in the middle of things most of the time, anyway.
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Still, there's 2 points I can see in favor of taking CB. First is the aforementioned disorient. It's a question of how often it works, especially against bosses. Second is the issue of server lag. Server lag will slow down a constant NB sequence more so than one with longer recharge attacks worked in. And finally there's the issue of what the actual damage ratio between the two is. If you can do me a favor, check it next time you log. I don't need the exact numbers, just the rough ratio between the two. I am thinking about whether to take CB at lvl 30 or not.
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I'm getting a little fed up with your misinformation about NB's damage potential, which is lackluster at best, even over time.
Spamming NB is nowhere NEAR the damage potential you keep suggesting. ALL other attacks in Rad (except Proton Volley because it's a snipe with a long activation time, which is still more useful for its long range and +Acc) add more DPS in an attack chain.
Brawl Indexes:
Neutrino Bolt - 1.6667 Energy
X-Ray Beam - 2.7778 Energy
Irradiate - 0.2778 Energy * 10
Electron Haze - 3.7500 Energy
Proton Volley - 1.9444 Energy * 4
Cosmic Burst - 5.8889 Energy
Neutrino Bomb - 2.5000 Energy
Damage Per Seconds of Activation: (assuming damage is Brawl Index * 10 for easy calculation)
Neutrino Bolt: 16.7 (16.7dam /1s activation)
XRay Beam: 18.5 (27.8dam /1.5s activation)
Irradiate: 27.8 AoE (27.8dam /1s activation)
Electron Haze: 12.5 Cone (37.5dam /3s activation)
Proton Volley: 12.9 = (77.6dam /6s activation)
Cosmic Burst: 28 (58.9dam /2.1s activation)
Neutrino Bomb: 12.5 AoE (25dam /2s activation)
(The EH and Neutron Bomb are lower, but if you hit only 2 guys with them, they still outdamage NB)
NB, WHILE FAST AND CHEAP, is the SECOND LOWEST DPS you can add to your attack chain with Rad Blast.
There's the math.
Thanks for the numbers, DodgerTA, especially for including the Damage per Activation. These should certainly help anyone make informed and intelligent decisions.
Do you have the numbers for Atomic Blast, by any chance?
It's not in the brawl indexes, so I'm not certain. It's AoE, has 3s activation and at level 40 will do between 700 and 800 damage. How that compares with the others, I'm not sure. It may actually lower your DPS used in an attack chain because it prevents you from attacking at all for a little while (due to -endo and -recovery) but it's really an attack chain all its own. ;-)
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Still, there's 2 points I can see in favor of taking CB. First is the aforementioned disorient. It's a question of how often it works, especially against bosses. Second is the issue of server lag. Server lag will slow down a constant NB sequence more so than one with longer recharge attacks worked in. And finally there's the issue of what the actual damage ratio between the two is. If you can do me a favor, check it next time you log. I don't need the exact numbers, just the rough ratio between the two. I am thinking about whether to take CB at lvl 30 or not.
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I'm getting a little fed up with your misinformation about NB's damage potential, which is lackluster at best, even over time.
Spamming NB is nowhere NEAR the damage potential you keep suggesting. ALL other attacks in Rad (except Proton Volley because it's a snipe with a long activation time, which is still more useful for its long range and +Acc) add more DPS in an attack chain.
Brawl Indexes:
Neutrino Bolt - 1.6667 Energy
X-Ray Beam - 2.7778 Energy
Irradiate - 0.2778 Energy * 10
Electron Haze - 3.7500 Energy
Proton Volley - 1.9444 Energy * 4
Cosmic Burst - 5.8889 Energy
Neutrino Bomb - 2.5000 Energy
Damage Per Seconds of Activation: (assuming damage is Brawl Index * 10 for easy calculation)
Neutrino Bolt: 16.7 (16.7dam /1s activation)
XRay Beam: 18.5 (27.8dam /1.5s activation)
Irradiate: 27.8 AoE (27.8dam /1s activation)
Electron Haze: 12.5 Cone (37.5dam /3s activation)
Proton Volley: 12.9 = (77.6dam /6s activation)
Cosmic Burst: 28 (58.9dam /2.1s activation)
Neutrino Bomb: 12.5 AoE (25dam /2s activation)
(The EH and Neutron Bomb are lower, but if you hit only 2 guys with them, they still outdamage NB)
NB, WHILE FAST AND CHEAP, is the SECOND LOWEST DPS you can add to your attack chain with Rad Blast.
There's the math.
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First off, XB has a 1.7s activation, so your math is wrong. NB alone has slightly superior DPS. Since you have to take NB, there is essentially no point in wasting a power slot on XB, except at lower levels. It's a power you either don't take or spec out.
CB was a power I did not have, which is why I inquired about the damage. I have not made the comparison between the two, except by a mutually agreed speculation between myself and the OP. What I SAID was that CB would have to do at least 2x the damage of NB to make it worthwhile, which is exacly correct. Note I asked the OP to check the numbers in game, which he did do. I am pleased that CB's damage numbers are higher than I had guessed, and will be taking the power at lvl 30.
Your "second worst" comment is misleading at best. NB is "second worst" out of 3 single target powers! Actually, it is 2nd "best" out of 4, if you take into account Proton Volley, but I'll leave that alone since PV has utility as pull power. However, even that isn't the total picture. It turns out that CB is the best overall DPS (IF you measure it only in terms of damage per activation second), but its recharge time is 10 seconds. With perma-hasten and perma-AM, you're only going to get that to 5 seconds. That's 4 seconds of downtime between CB's where you can throw 4 NB's. So NB is a must slot, and must use, power for a rad/rad.
Comparing single target attacks to AOE's is pure silliness. It's an apples to oranges comparison. The AOE's will always do more damage when there are 3 or more targets, and usually do more with 2 or more targets. That's true regardless of powerset. The AOE's of course recharge much slower and use more End as a tradeoff. But the comparison is pointless. I've never suggested that you take NB and don't take any AOE's. Your argument consists of a series of straw men. You let me know when you can find the specific "misinformation" I've posted and I'll happily own up to it.
Edit: I would further add, if you want to get into the fine nuances, that NB alone has overall better DPS than CB alone. The problem is that your calculation is DPS based on activation time alone. It assumes you can buff your recharge rate to where it is equal to or less than the activation time. That's true with NB, but not with CB. You can get 5 NB's in for every one CB, assuming perma-hasten plus perma-AM. Of course, cycling the two WILL produce better DPS than either alone. But I'm not sure I'm agreeing with NB even being second best of 4. It's actually first best of 4 in raw DPS.
- felicity
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You're right, I was thinking of recharge, not activation when I wrote that. Sorry, lack of sleep (real-life duties, not game-playing, though.)
I just checked in-game, and with equal slotting, I'm getting a ratio of 3.5:1 for CB damage to NB.
And the activation really doesn't feel like it's more than twice as long... I could be wrong though, or maybe my clicking on NB isn't perfectly efficient -- but I doubt that I can fire off 2 NBs instead of 1 CB...
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Thanks for checking. At 3.5:1, it sounds like CB is definitely worth throwing into the sequence with NB. I'll be taking it at lvl 30.
2s and 1s are the stated activation times for CB and NB, respectively. Your perception of it not being 2:1 could be accurate in practice though, due to lag.
- felicity
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Brawl Indexes:
Neutrino Bolt - 1.6667 Energy
X-Ray Beam - 2.7778 Energy
Irradiate - 0.2778 Energy * 10
Electron Haze - 3.7500 Energy
Proton Volley - 1.9444 Energy * 4
Cosmic Burst - 5.8889 Energy
Neutrino Bomb - 2.5000 Energy
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One final point regarding these numbers. This time, it relates to the comparison between Neutron Bomb and Irradiate. The numbers are highly misleading as they imply that Irradiate does grossly more damage over time than Neutron Bomb. Once again, we have the problem of measuring damage over time based upon only activation, when the powers have significant recharge time limitations even with perma-hasten and perma-AM.
Irradiate has a recharge of 20 seconds. Neutron is 16 seconds.
So what is the impact of Neutron's longer activation time? Well Warcry has the activation times of the 2 powers as follows:
Irradiate: 1.1s
Neutron Bomb: 1.7s
Those times are different from those posted by Dodger. If they are out of date, fine. It actually doesn't change the conclusion much.
Because the 2 powers recharge slowly, you have to measure the opportunity cost of a longer activation based on damage lost from another attack that presumably would have been made during the extra activation time. In the case of this comparison, there is a difference of .6 seconds. But let's agree with the above numbers, and say it is a full 1 second.
Your downtime with AOE's will generally be used with single target attacks. Assuming you have CB and NB, it's going to take the place of the fast recharging NB by user choice (because its damage per activation/second is less than CB.)
Hence, you DO NOT divide the total damage number by the activation time as done above. That method is only correct where recharge times are a non-factor. Rather, you must SUBTRACT the damage lost by foregoing another attack.
Let's take a scenario where you have 4 targets and compare Neutron Bomb with Irradiate.
From Dodger's brawl index numbers, Irradiate is 27.8 per target; Neutron Bomb is 25. 27.8x4 targets =111.2 for Irradiate, and 25x4=100 for Neutron Bomb. Now, from the Neutron Bomb number, we subtract the equivalent of one NB attack on a single target, which comes to 100-16.7=82.3. That's the damage lost due to Neutron's longer activation compared to Irradiate.
But in measuring damage over time, we still have to normalize these numbers for the differeing recharge times of the 2 attacks. With hasten and perma-AM, Neutron comes in at about 8 seconds recharge, and Irradiate about 10. Hence, we will multply the Irradiate damage number by .8 to make it apples to apples. 111.2 x .8 = 88.96 damage for Irradiate, vs. the aforementioned 82.3 for Neutron Bomb. These numbers assume that Dodger's activation times are accurate. If the Warcry numbers are accurate, then you'll find that Neutron Bomb is actually slightly higher in overall damage.
One final point: do we know what the blast radius for these 2 powers is? Because these numbers are close enough that the power with the superior radius is probably, in most cases, the more damaging power.
Both powers should be taken and cycled, no doubt, but don't be misled into thinking that the 2 are far apart in overall damage output, because they aren't.
- felicity
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Edit: I would further add, if you want to get into the fine nuances, that NB alone has overall better DPS than CB alone. The problem is that your calculation is DPS based on activation time alone. It assumes you can buff your recharge rate to where it is equal to or less than the activation time. That's true with NB, but not with CB. You can get 5 NB's in for every one CB, assuming perma-hasten plus perma-AM. Of course, cycling the two WILL produce better DPS than either alone. But I'm not sure I'm agreeing with NB even being second best of 4. It's actually first best of 4 in raw DPS.
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If you look at my post, I specifically mention adding the attacks to "an attack chain"
With Hasten and AM, it is easy to build an attack chain where you never have to wait for anything to recharge. The more you use NB in that chain the lower it will be.
And yes, I compare the single-targets to the AoE's. You know why? Because I have rarely if ever needed to kill just 1 guy. And if I did? I just sniped him, because I can EASILY 2-shot an orange minion with EF and a snipe followed by a CB.
As for single-target attacks, why would you possibly try to make a single-target damager out of the best AoE set a Defender gets? (we have 3 AoE attacks in Rad, 2 radial and a good damage cone) You want single-target damage, Rad/Psi is probably a better choice.
Again my numbers were Per seconds activation. I was presenting them as how much damage they bring to an attack chain, when you can post your attacks in an order that you always have one recharged to fire off. It's easily doable.
Over time (damage / rech + activation)
Irradiate's 27.8 / (1.1 + 10) = 2.50
NB's 25 / (1.7 + 8) = 2.57
With 1 recharge in Irradiate,
Irradiate's 27.8 / (1.1 + 8.5) = 2.89
I put 1 rech in Irradiate but not NeutBomb because I open the fight with RI + EF + Aim + Irradiate (to debuff defense for max accuracy), then NB, and with the recharger, I can Irradiate again before Aim wears off.
At this point, that group are dead anyway, and my DPS calculations are moot because I'm already heading toward the next fight. :-D
Why Im posting:
There have been quite a number of guides posted regarding both the Radiation Emission Primary Powerset and the Radiation Blast Secondary Powerset for Defenders. For example, I highly recommend SoulHealers Guide to Radiation Emission found elsewhere on these boards. However, I find a number of questionable, if not downright objectionable, suggestions in a lot of other guides and the subsequent discussion/debate. Furthermore, I have yet to find a guide on specifically rad/rad with which I was entirely happy. This then is my own take on the subject, fuelled by my own in-game experiences, my discussions with other experienced players, and some knowledge I have gleaned from these boards.
Why I like rad/rad:
I find rad/rad to be extremely versatile. I find it works extremely well in solo play, as well as team efforts. Furthermore, depending upon the exigencies of the situation and the composition of the team, the competent rad/rad can function as either: a tank, a boss-killer (scrapper), a healer, a blaster, or a controller. A brief word on each of these roles:
TANK With our great debuffs (RI, EF, LR), we can stand in the middle of even purple mobs relatively unscathed. Any damage that does get through can either be healed with RA, or their nasty status effects are at least partially alleviated by AM. Note the word relatively I do not advise tanking for a living. Furthermore, a good rad/rad can be the primary herder (getting large mobs together in one big group), especially in indoor missions. Cast RI on a villain at the end of the warehouse (for example), and lead him to all the other mobs, infecting them along the way. Make your way back to the entrance (or wherever you decide to make your stand), then deal with them as you wish. You may, at that point, hit Aim, cast EM pulse, and Atomic Blast most, if not all, should fall at that point. Any stragglers that may be left are held and should be handled easily.
Boss-killer True, we do not get the criticals of the scrapper, nor do we have the same damage output of the blaster but we get pretty close. Again, with our debuffs, we can stand toe-to-toe with most purples (within reason of course) with relative impunity. We can then spam NB and CB (or X-ray, if you have it) until the villain falls (this may take time, though).
Healer We have a pretty decent, sure-hit heal in RA.
Blaster True, a blaster typically does more damage than we do. But we have a way of getting past the damage cap that they dont EF. And we have some excellent attacks, which will be covered later in this guide.
Controller We have one of the best holds in the game, EM pulse. And we have Aim, which will help it hit. RI also helps in this regard.
Some Basic Principles:
1) Economics plays a huge role in determining how you build your hero. Ideally, we would like all the powers, and have them all 6-slotted. But we cant. This must always be borne in mind. Any power or slot you pick up or put in adds value to your hero (marginal utility). But it comes with an opportunity cost (you could have picked another power, or used the slot elsewhere). If I may be allowed a rather facetious example:
Obviously, a 6-slotted Rest is better than a 1-slotted Rest. I would argue that those 5 extra slots will have greater marginal utility for you elsewhere. But if you insist on 6-slotting rest, there are further considerations. You can use all 6 slots for better healing this will be helpful since you have to rest for maybe 2 or 3 seconds less. But how useful will that be for you? Perhaps slotting 6 recharges might be better, allowing you to rest more frequently. But regardless do NOT put any extra slots in Rest, ok?
2) Respec is available, so I suggest you make your hero with this in mind, Thus, this guide will have a pre-24 part, and a post-24 part.
3) A lot of other factors come into play when making your hero than just optimal efficiency, such as character concept. If your character is named Flybaby, it might not make much sense if she or he could not fly. Or, you may need Recall Friend since you always play with your husband who is playing a Natural origin scrapper that will never get a travel power. You may find eye-beams extremely cool (though I still wonder how X-ray beam can miss, since its coming from your eyes and you are LOOKING at the damned target!). None of these conditions applied to me as I made my character, so bear that in mind.
4) This guide is aimed at a hero that can play both solo and with a team. You may want to change certain things if you are going to play exclusively or primarily one way or the other. An extreme but very realistic example:
If you are joining a team of all rad/rads, you will want to slot your AM differently, since you will now have 8 AMs running simultaneously, each of them contributing to recharging your powers. You may choose to skip Hasten and/or Stamina, then.
The Guide (How I did it up to lvl 24)
At level 24, you get your 14th power. Of those 14, I used 7 for Pool powers, from 4 different pools. Heres my reasoning:
Hasten Given what I had said above regarding economics, Hasten makes great sense. Not all powers are created equal you will naturally want to use some more frequently than others. In a perfect world, all my single-target attacks would probably be Cosmic Burst for its great damage and disorient capability. However, all powers need to recharge. So if I wanted to just use CB, I would have a significant amount of downtime between attacks. Hasten enables all your powers to recharge faster, thus, your best powers come up more frequently. This enables you to use fewer powers (the better ones), and to maximize their slotting. In other words, I would rather have my best 2 or 3 attacks 6-slotted, than have 7 attacks with just 2 or 3 slots each.
Super Speed Makes sense since you already have Hasten. Furthermore, with Stealth, SS grants you the equivalent of invisibility, enabling you to cast your first attack (for me, typically RI) before you draw aggro.
Combat Jumping SS alone can get rather frustrating, with its lack of vertical mobility. CJ (and later SJ) help alleviate if not totally eliminate this problem. It also gives a decent defense bonus to you, while being quite efficient in terms of endurance usage.
Stealth Already covered above.
Stamina (and its prerequisites: hurdle and swift or health) Especially before you get AM up all the time, endurance could be a problem. I like Hurdle because of the aforementioned lack of vertical mobility. I took Swift just so I can travel faster. I chose not to take Health since I can heal. I think its fine whichever 2 you end up choosing.
So thats 7 powers. From the remaining 7, I took 2 from the secondary, and 5 from the primary.
Blasts:
I took both NB and X-ray. I wanted more than one attack aside from brawl.
NB is one of the best attacks in the game with Perma Hasten and Perma AM, it essentially recharges as soon as the animation is done, i.e., you can cast it non-stop with no downtime. As such, in terms of just spamming one attack non-stop, it has as high a DPS as any power in the game. I 6 slot my NB, all with damage. A lot of others put in 1 acc and 5 dmg. I find I hit often enough with RI going.
X-ray was my second attack. I did not slot it, because I intended to respec it out at 24. An ideal single-target attack chain or sequence for rad in terms of DPS would involve CB, NB, and X-ray. I sacrifice some DPS by just going with NB and CB, but I gain an extra power by taking out X-ray, as well as the extra 5 slots which would have gone in it. (I 6-slot all my attacks). Given NBs fast recharge, I always have an attack ready even with just these 2 attacks.
Primary Powerset
I took the remaining 5 powers from our primary. At this point, it might be good to look at SoulHealers guide (mentioned above). It really is quite detailed, and excellent. Of the 7 available powers up to this point (lvl 24), I took all except Mutation and Choking Cloud.
Mutation As good a res as there is in the game. Brings back a fallen comrade stronger than before, but weaker after it wears off. Can be very useful especially in terms of preventing a team wipe (everyone falling). Having said that, I chose to forego this power at this point because the build is so tight in terms of powers. I chose to just go with Awakens or the Hospital instead.
Choking Cloud Quite a debate has gone on about this power. Some find it totally useless, others swear by it. I contend that it would be a nice-to-have power, but again, given the tightness of the build, I choose to forego it. With proper slotting, you can hold around 75-80% of mobs after 10 seconds. However, with RI, EF and LR going, you can survive rather well anyway, and in the late game, you have EM pulse to hold all of them, or Atomic Blast to just get them all down in one shot.
The 5 Powers I did take:
RA PBAoE heal. Not quite empathy level numbers, but decent. Slotting depends upon the role you see for yourself (solo or within a team, and if within a team, are you the primary healer?) Arguments can be made for End. Reduc. and recharge enhancements, as well as the obvious heal enhancements. At this point in your career, I recommend 2 or 3 heal enhancements.
RI Toggle cast around a villain, affecting all within a radius of the target. Lowers their chance to hit you, and increases your chance to hit them. Great power. Ive seen some recommend putting in an End reduc here, and I totally disagree. RI uses up less than 7/10 of an end per second. I slot it with ToHit and Defense debuffs. Late game, I recommend slotting it with 6, divided 3/3. At this stage of your career, probably 2 to 3, with more for ToHit debuffs.
AM Great buff. Increases a lot of things (damage, run speed, end. recovery, recharge) as well as decreasing the time of status effects upon you. Works for people around you as well, by the way. By the time SOs are available at 22, I had this 6 slotted. If you do have Hasten, 5 recharge slots in Hasten plus 4 recharges in AM should be enough to make AM Perma (you have some downtime when your enhancements are no longer maxed out). Thus, most people slot this 4/2, the 2 being endurance recovery. I personally slot it 3/3. I accept the minimal downtime for AM in exchange for the greater endurance recovery.
EF Toggle similar to RI. Increases damage done to mobs, and decreases damage they do. Damage to the mobs is increased by lowering their damage resistance, thus EF enables going beyond the damage cap. Uses up twice as much end as RI does, however. Optimal slotting would be 3 end reduc might be your best possible investment in terms of endurance management up to this point in your career. I wont go into the numbers, but assuming you use EF in every battle, putting in the 2nd and third end reducs in EF will serve you more than an extra end recovery in Stamina.
LR LR is a click and not a toggle. As such, it is not auto-hit as both RI and EF are. Slows down mobs movement speed and attack rates. Since they attack you less, this is effectively damage mitigation as well. Furthermore, it takes them longer to get out of your debuff zone. Would be great to 6 slot this power accuracy, slow, and end reduc come to mind. But even in the 40s, I could not spare the slots. At this stage in your career, maybe 1 acc and 1 end reduc early, replaced by slow later on, when you have stamina and perma AM.
There you have all 14 powers, and the reasons why I picked them. I wont insult your intelligence by suggesting an actual sequence in which to take them, and when and how many to slot per level. Besides, there would be no one perfect or correct way, anyway. I will recommend, however, that you get SS by 14, and Stamina by 20, i.e., as early as possible. I personally do not like not having a travel power, so I get one as soon as I can on all my characters (except my DM/DA, but thats another story).
R'ae -- rad/rad defender on Virtue