slainsteel
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(Wrong Thread :-\)
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Quote:Morality and intelligence are two different things :POriginally Posted by Golden Girl
If he wasn't dumb on some level, he wouldn't be a supervillain
If he was dumb, he'd just be a villain, not a super villain
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Quote:The evidence needs to make sense. Emperor Cole decides to store a majority of his military machinery in once facility? Doesn't that just 'scream' - "Dude, how stupid are you."Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
If you see evidence to support the point and then say "But that's just propoganda," what evidence, pray tell, would sway you more than the devs telling you "This is the backbone of the Praetorian War Machine. There's little point in debate if you refuse to admit to evidence.
Of al his flaws, arrogance being a major one, it never seemed to me that stupidity was one of them. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
s/l/f/c/e/n defense softcap
35.4% psi defense
72.8 s/l res
14.6 f/c/e/n res
839% regen-121.78 HP/sec (1 foe in RttC)
3477 HP
Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1429;693;1386;HEX;| |78DA65535B4F1341189D6DB7949602ADA550E4566EBDC2D2158CE2F5414041488A5| |57C32642D63D9D82C4DDBA8BCF903F4D90735BEFBBBBCA1A0FE0153BFFDCE504876| |D3F6CC9E3973CEF74D67B65EAD4484787D5B68913B35ABD9DC7D6839CF6523B0655| |5ED4A6245BEB01D99DA914E553A1599CADAE6722E28844842B6BB229F49A7298DC7| |76AD563F78291B0935B1256B92688B465645C6D69D7DD9904ECB381D444A0707356| |3535A75DBA9F6F2CB9A5DDD6FD15BFFE9D49E6C34F7ED7A98DFCB7529F7E2AB75BB| |62AC3AB2513D24E3664B360E93544E9EBE5F42F4A3D157B403E2110D4C31B90D283| |3E496004586BCC970392CD443AB4A0453C2B70D78C0102933F4DD2318137DEB0CDF| |284B43964F83FB0C22671079856CFDCAD60F5B1DB63A6CBB60DB05DB086CBF936D0| |0B6FEC07DBF6B94D960C8AD312CFC63DD0FD20539BFED0B22B71BB9DD28E62B0942| |CA28643015CE030A0CE690E61A0DD27FD9A3FAE8415212497377193412F4A20F7F2| |FFA98431FF3E8631E7DF849D7AF8CFAB1CF51EC737491E127551453825882A90B03| |8028C335DAB1B8DAB1389206903480A4149252D8AA496C9C4EB909D56802B683B01| |D84ED5C9C6199DC87E0AE0D7DF0B951C9F70C4754D8B02A6CF89DCF155F7C0378CB| |709D968E60A93EF2CBE7A68E9E008E18C68F19522DE1CA6354D198F21B4345E3A86| |81C151D53E004FCC4C425DEE51B61B733444CC17B1AA6D3089C46D20C226E927C56| |C967214F4390863C8DC519C8E354511615695934BDF091E12A191554290593C59FA| |82043514681A9CF74008AAAA3224E9B89D366E2B48DEA9D3B441F7A444EEFDCC576| |DE335BF430A68759F4304B1E66D3C39474154B8CC64C28DAB988ED9370E7D6AAD93| |F678CAEED7033995B7C33F21B0419318F7E17D0EF6F8FC1DF3346D3705EF2383D4F| |C22E87E0D2B9F1D373E36D3AF0A61A5BE7F8FFE3E9F267| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Nice build. -
Quote:I read that; but it really seemed more like 2002-2003 Iraq War propaganda than any actual logic that the facility is really as important as they make it sound.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
This is from the Lambda Sector overview:
Yeah, so it's the bed for creating genetically enhanced soldiers - but if a tyrant is stupid enough to put ALL his eggs in one facility, that makes the ENTIRE arc seem even less important. Since then we aren't fighting against a super-powerful super-intelligent opponent, but just a stupid but yeah, super-powerful opponent.
I can't get myself to buy in to the explanation that the facility is REALLY important; all the text says to me is, this is the best they came up with, and are trying to make the incarnate's going in feel that they are contributing more than they really are. -
Quote:I am not saying that the story is bad, nor am I saying it is good.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The trials seem to be being themed around various aspects of the dictatorship that we have to destroy to smash the whole system - for example, the BAF is centered around brainwashing/mindcontrol, Lambda is the IDF/invasion army, Anti-matetr's reactors might have a clockwork theme to them, as both he and Neuron have their own Clockwork, and the Praetorian Hamidon is one of the big things that got Tyrant to where he is today - and Mother Mayhem's asylum would be focused on the Seers and their enslavement.
So if you look at the pillars of the dictatorship - Enriche/brainwashing, the IDF/military power, the Clockwork, the Seer network and the threat of the Hamidon/Tyrant's claim to be the only one able to stop it, then it does look like the Trials are being designed around them.
The BAF Trial is a blow against Tyrant's brainwashing/propaganda, Lambda Sector is a blow against Tyrant's military might, the Anti-Matter reactor is a potential blow against the Clockwork/mechanized forces of Tyrant, and potential Mother Mayhem Trial is a blow against Tyrant's thought police and system of slavery, and the Hamidon Trial is a blow against Tyrant's claims to be the one and only way of stopping the Devouring Earth.
All the various forces of oppression that were introduced in GR become the focus of the Incarnate Trials for us to liberate Praetoria - it has a nice flow to it - discover the evil of the dictatorship 1-20, escape the evil of the dictatroship 20-50, return to destroy the evil of the dictatorship 50+.
Also, as the PPD/secet police are also one of the instriuments of oppression used by Tyrant, and as we haven't fought Chimera yet, there could be a Trial themed around crippling them too.
Infernal, Diabolique, and possibly Black Swan could be invovled in a Trial about the mystery of where all the magic went in Praetoria, especially if it's reveled that Tyrant has suppressed it in some way.
All I am saying is that it is not 'epic'.
Geez, i19 had more epic story lines as a 'part' of the issue, not even the entire focus. -
Quote:Any links to support your point?Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Okay, but Lambda is not a small meaningless facility. it's the backbone of the Praetorian Military Machine.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I have some corrections to the original numbers I posted. I made a mistake when I just hacked in the numbers quick and dirty: I entered actual defense numbers when I should have capped them to 45% (to honor the soft-cap). That shifts things slightly. I also added in your Willpower numbers from the second build. Here's the relative standings, in composite numbers: Willpower, then Electric, then Invuln:
Sustainable: 35.43 26.36 18.80
180 seconds: 24.24 17.71 14.31
60 seconds: 17.39 12.42 11.55
30 seconds: 14.12 9.89 10.24
The Willpower numbers beat *everyone*, before I even add in SoW. Why? Two reasons. One: your build nearly perma-caps health. That's a huge advantage that partically makes up for your lesser resistances. Two: the composite scores presume you're going to see a constant barrage of all the damage types, 66% smash/lethal, and all the rest evenly distributed (with half the psionic damage being non-positional). This means ultra-high protection in one area won't compensate for massive weakness in another: think of it as leaks in a dam. A lot of small leaks is better than one big one. If you have one big one, it doesn't matter if you seal the other leaks completely. Willpower's performance is a bit more even, which means it doesn't have the one big leak in damage.
Consider, these are the damage numbers for the 30 second window for Willpower:
Smash/Lethal: 8056.46
Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative: 2490.52
Toxic: 741.24
Psi/Non-positional Psi: 1955.16
Compare to the Electric build:
Smash/Lethal: 8996.90
Fire/Cold: 1161.16
Energy: 16464.33
Negative: 3292.87
Toxic: 505.16
Psi: 830.53
Non-positional Psi: 328.18
And Invuln:
Smash/Lethal: 17635.53
Fire/Cold: 3019.78
Energy/Negative: 2676.10
Toxic: 546.14
Psi: 328.18
Non-positional Psi: 328.18
In a completely smash/lethal environment, Invuln crushes them both. But in an environment where only 5.7% of the total damage is psionics, Invuln has problems compared to Willpower that blows them both away.
One issue with my composite score is that its a bit naive relative to true damage type distribution. It assumes that s/l is 66% of all damage (which is probably close to the truth) and the rest is evenly distributed (probably not so close to the truth). But since we're talking about slicing up 34% of the damage in different ways, that's usually not a bit deal. And actually psionic damage is probably under-represented, which is actually depressing Willpower's scores relative to the other two sets.
So why do so many people think Willpower isn't in the same class as Invuln or Electric? Probably because few people have seen a health capped defensive soft-capped Willpower Tanker with 665% regen. And that's with one thing in RTTC. With RTTC maxed out, its a ridiculous 1096% regen. Its also true that these numbers don't factor in endurance drain as mitigation, although that's probably not strong enough to shift the numbers radically without Power Sink.
Plug numbers in from this build arcana? It's about 124hp/s with just 1 target in RTTC.
I have a WP/elec with similar numbers but not capped def to all, wanted to throw this in to see if actually beats invuln/elec.Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1424;684;1368;HEX;| |78DA65936B6F1241148667D8A5144A5B2ABDD0D2164BAFD0B2406DA25613636C4D8| |C4569A9FAC93448C7B2161702DBA8DFFC01FAEF8C1AFDEAFDFE0FF0EC79478A6113| |78CE9E7979E7CC614EE1E9565888E757840C5FAB955BAD83FDB273AC9AFD8513B7E| |CDA754704841031240FB6D443E5B49475CFAED51AF527AA19D70B055553CA2A9D34| |282EB94DE51CB9D5911B4E5551E85AFF8250B15EAF59A5865287831C5EB78FAAAEE| |D1CE1ADA00EED8AEDA830BFEDA8728396A2DB0DBB625D6D565CBB725028B75CD57C| |16A392D2F4F910A42F491FD1F68B35425EF8344AD2837907D865F4ED31D642423F6| |D4314094931BF0BEC01254626A4CD4927A15B806E01BA05E82CD2195A6740B704DD| |12744BD07DA46AFDA8D6F0272958167DB38CFE042336C7F844BA007466E026971CD| |A010A8CF02DE036E333C983908BE018A7BE506A40FAD96100AA211845601481D128| |8CBE927C100E72F085CF4BCDBE6464E968C3389A7FB88A159B71F611700CD418738| |F19DFC86F441F6004159D190522D8F73CAD9986C86826E98E457501D155FE03E700| |492B63BAB763E86D1ABD4DA3B769F4D620DD84DE72C20B66446CDD60A31C6F99DA6| |064F38CEF54E1246CC5247632C9210E075F1C454FA3E86914BD4EBD9891928B9CD9| |44E179CD59FA7142FB25E2EC97087875A1F224AE6116D7308BBB99876E836C17A13| |3172F70FF962F029BC02546EA32639C6C5774AB5650660A6516E9B8AB7AC3D5573E| |AF056BAF8137C05BC63C3958D049EB1D9BE6DF337E505772FA1439CCD1B4D9332BF| |DE87F06FDCFA0FF3BA73A1A06762B9A9DF111123D4E999D796D07239DA969FFF426| |4D5F619961E9AFEED40AA77E9FA6FC12AD1CC2448FA3A3E3FB8C29747BEA2EE3CFE| |9AFA4FCEF72E7BA6B6ED323D23D997C4F66A32773AE27B31B257F7DCE07216F67C4| |E5AEF87E575CEC8AFF0250D8D58C| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:I agree mostly.Originally Posted by Breog
As to the orginal question of this thread.
I dont really think thier is a clear cut "best" all around tanker primary. It really comes down to your style and what you want to do, and how you want to do it.
Inv
Elec
Dark
Stone
Are my top 4 picks for all around Tanking in a varity of different content.
But if the argument was 'pure' survivability, I'd reorder that to,
Stone
Elec/Dark (not sure which now)
Invuln
WP -
Quote:Focus.Originally Posted by Ironblade
Negative. Most DoT powers don't tick fast enough to reliably interrupt it *IF* you have interrupt reduction in it.
Well, if I Foot Stomp first, then the chance of getting hit is pretty low. Or if I use Shield Charge. Or Fault.
I am not saying that Aid-Self is NOT useful.
I am saying that you cannot use it in calculations due to it's reliance on no-interrupt. -
Quote:If you would post this on the Tanker forum, I'd be happy to give you some input. This is kinda OT for this thread.Originally Posted by Crazy_Larry
What do you guys think of this Elec tank build? I was thinking that with the now prevalance of Maneuvers on teams, plus the fact that I'll be taking Darkest Night, positional might be better than typed defense.
Do you guys think this build would be better than a typical s/l soft capped build? I mean with DN running I'd basically be soft capped to everything, and on teams it wouldn't take much to give me all position soft capping.
Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1377;688;1376;HEX;| |78DA6594D96ED3401486671287D0342549B7A44D9B42F7C535711B89BB22A045023| |55221850B362B4A27B15B37891C57823B1E001E8155ACD76C2FC02EDE816B9616EE| |59CCC939D350C956ECCFFE67E63F33E7CC247F7531CAD8F5A38C474FD8C546C3582| |D56378413CA172B568985196383A4188BA22CAA0DA12DD9A2E43A56C938E66CD69C| |B46CCD0B5B08ADB05587F782EB886AC53513A7AAA6805757DB7D89ACD46AB656A80| |BB116C5D76551AC5BD54A077E9CB42AA60B5FB1DDA635E1344CAB9E5CAA5B25EDB8| |B3E50AA350DBB28D7CB1E10AE75A0A66370EF7EB183C38DCCCE36C01A004594005E| |A4C8D3079792156064CB04005A198884E0BD1BD8EC86C20DE82212743856779D348| |9943ECD309F3083587D020485006095E4087FD06E122227289701911BD827803414| |2142414FA128044B3E857C4816F84EF88F8366107F10E4685E55AC372AD9D2A1ABE| |87A636D9D496E4CDDEA329C407686997A1DACFE09CBBCF237ACF120A88D439C4E82| |A6204AADF41CB621D1E5CAC179418F9B0580F76FA08D60929256631E73AA4A34BA6| |A38BD291A23CF4531EFA290F039487014A1507EF1E19ADA78C46419092B20C49CA7| |886AA91A1C4CF523574AA8D02DDFBA87BA02F8ED2419AE44837620E2696C6BA7AA1| |F48300767848788438F498F084F0149100DB41693B28FDE27B6D87A1C390EC30348| |3331F25A884C31077582664D844D38975C4B485503710B33642DF44E460D4981C35| |F60BA5F1DF843F84BF64E5119A5B506725784ECA5193B730FCD46DC21DC25DC4F43| |DC27DC467F80F9891C99F3942BB4A8093469AA23DA3853C27BC20BCA472BF427C82| |8D909516D9399CCB80D23A7CF06B6EA029A57552BD695F6BD6A7E83E65DEA7E47CC| |AB24F5951645850382A6DF1D699F5B623ADE32E5B7FEC554EF3E6FEDCF175FAF95F| |E1FC0655F0266201B6BF2E97F90F52BBEB90| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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To start with, my entire guide is based on Arcanaville's guide. It is a super comprehensive and really detailed guide explaining defense in the game. I would highly recommend reading through it if you really want to understand the game's attack/defense mechanics thoroughly. I am posting this guide to make understanding attack and defense simpler.
What this guide is:- A PvE guide to help people understand Key Factors about defense
- A collection of data that puts into perspective accuracy/tohit/defense
- Key takeaways from Arcana's guide put in a simple form
- Links where data can be gotten to use for the derivations I have made are at the end of the guide
- A guide to a majority of combat situations you will face in the game, 'when' you are not debuffed (please keep an eye out for enemies that Debuff, a common example being Roman Soldiers on the Imperious Task Force)
What this guide is not:- This is not a guide for PvP, at all
- It is not a comprehensive guide to all defense mechanics in the game; formula's that are used are listed in the end, but not necessary to understand the guide
- A guide for exception cases like players with beginner's luck (players under level 20), streak breaker or enemies with special defense/ToHit/accuracy bonuses; please do read about special bonuses that your enemy gets if you see these numbers not working well for a situation (I have included an example of Lord Recluse as a possible exceptional case though)
- This guide does not take debuffs into account. I can add a section if requested, but at this moment all the calculations are assuming that neither the player nor the enemy are debuffed in any form
Defense
They key number thrown around for defense is called the defense soft-cap.
This number essentially means that if your defense is this high, it won't help much to increase your defense anymore.
So basically, if you are at 45% defense, AND, the enemies do NOT have any ToHit/Accuracy buffs, these are their chances of hitting you,
Code:This does not of course, cover special cases where enemy AV's have ToHit buffs. I'll take the case of Lord Recluse, with the blue tower up which gives him a +30 ToHit. When defending against Lord Recluse with the blue tower,+---------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Rank/Level |+0 |+1 |+2 |+3 |+4 | +---------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Minion |5% |5.5% |6% |6.5% |7% | +---------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Lt |5.75% |6.325% |6.9% |7.475% |8.05% | +---------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Boss/Sniper |6.5% |7.15% |7.8% |8.45% |9.1% | +---------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Monster/GM/AV |7.5% |8.25% |9% |9.75% |10.5% | +---------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
- With 45% defense, his chance of hitting you is 73.5%
- With 50% defense, his chance of hitting you is 63%
- With 60% defense, his chance of hitting you is 42%
- With 70% defense, his chance of hitting you is 21%
- With 75% defense, his chance of hitting you is 10.5%
Now if you are level shifted, Lord Recluse is only +3 to you, so these numbers change to,- With 45% defense, his chance of hitting you is 68.25%
- With 50% defense, his chance of hitting you is 58.5%
- With 60% defense, his chance of hitting you is 39%
- With 70% defense, his chance of hitting you is 19.5%
- With 75% defense, his chance of hitting you is 9.75%
This means that after 45% defense no matter HOW high your defense is, if the enemy does not have any accuracy/tohit buffs, they will NOT hit you for more than this.
This comes with a caveat, defense typing.
Defense typing - an explanation for "wtf, Rikti hit me even with 50% s/l defense!"
When an enemy attacks you, his attack is of a particular 'damage type' and from a particular 'position'.
When calculating defense, the game will take two of your defensive numbers,- Your defense to that damage 'type'
- Your defense to that particular 'position'
The higher of the two numbers will be your 'effective' defense.
So for example, you have these defense numbers,
Smashing: 30%
Lethal: 30%
Fire: 20%
Cold: 20%
Energy: 40%
Negative: 40%
Psi: 10%
Melee: 20%
Ranged: 15%
AoE: 35%
So again for example, if a Romulus Nictus hits you with Hack, a lethal typed attack, which is also a melee positional, the game will see these two numbers,
1.) Lethal defense: 30%
2.) Melee defense: 20%
Since lethal is higher, it will pick your lethal defense and your defense against the attack will be 30%
Note: Keep in mind, that there are some Psi attacks, that do NOT have any 'positional' type. In those cases, ONLY your Psi defense will be used to determine your defense. These attacks though are rare in the game.
Attack
For various reasons, accuracy is probably one of the few mis-understood abilities in the game. To put simply,
ToHit = more effective than accuracy. Something we'll see as I give data.
(All calculations are assuming the enemy has no defense, I'll give another table with defense below)
So assuming that you have NO accuracy bonuses at all, and have NO accuracy Enhancements slotted in a power. On a power of base accuracy of 1.0 (most primary attack powers are at this), your chances to hit an enemy are,
Now, assuming you have one level 50 Accuracy IO, in that power, that's a 42.4% accuracy bonus, your chances to hit now are,Code:+-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |ToHit/Level |+0 |+1 |+2 |+3 |+4 | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |None |75% |65% |56% |48% |39% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Kismet (6%) |81% |71% |62% |54% |45% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Tactics (base 7%) |82% |72% |63% |55% |46% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Tactics (3 TH IO's) |86% |76% |67% |59% |50% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
Code:+-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |ToHit/Level |+0 |+1 |+2 |+3 |+4 | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |None |95% |92.6% |79.7% |68.3% |55.5% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Kismet (6%) |95% |95% |88.2% |76.8% |64% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Tactics (base 7%) |95% |95% |89.7% |78.3% |66.5% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Tactics (3 TH IO's) |95% |95% |95% |84.1% |71.3% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
Now this all _really changes drastically, once you bring defense into the picture, with one level accuracy 50 IO, if the enemy has 15% defense, these are your chances to hit,
Code:+-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |ToHit/Level |+0 |+1 |+2 |+3 |+4 | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |None |85.4% |71.2% |58.4% |47.3% |34.1% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Kismet (6%) |94% |80% |67% |55.5% |42.7% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Tactics (base 7%) |95% |81.1% |68.3% |57% |44.1% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |Tactics (3 TH IO's) |95% |87% |74.1% |62.% |50% | +-----------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
Key takeaways from Attack
Given this data, let me throw a few facts out,- Except for very low numbers for both, ToHit is way more useful than accuracy to increase your net ability to hit an enemy
- If an enemy has defense, ToHit becomes much of higher value to final ability to hit than accuracy
- If the enemy's defense gets higher than your inherent ToHit + ToHit bonus (+4 elude, recluse's yellow tower), only accuracy can help, but only slightly
Some caps, - With NO enemy defense and NO ToHit buffs to self, Accuracy caps at,
- for +0 enemies, +27%
- for +4 enemies, +144%
- With NO enemy defense and fully enhanced tactics (3 level 50 ToHit IO's) Accuracy caps at,
- for +0 enemies, +11%
- for +4 enemies, +90%
- With 15% enemy defense and fully enhanced team tactics (3 level 50 ToHit IO's) Accuracy caps at,
- for +0 enemies, +26%
- for +4 enemies, +139%
Note: Please keep in mind that the accuracy % that you see in a power on Mids, is actually NOT the accuracy bonus. It is some sort of hybrid between total accuracy and tohit buffs. To see the actual accuracy bonus for a power, hover your mouse over the number and Mids will show you your actual 'accuracy' for that power
Data
The basic formula used to calculate final chance to hit is (as taken from Arcanaville's post)
Bounded[ (InherentAttackAccuracy) * (RankBuff) * (LevelBuff) * Bounded[ (BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs + Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ] ]
Where Bounded[] buts an upper bound of 95% and minimum bound of 5%.
Data regarding inherent ToHit of the player and enemies at various and to various levels is given at on Paragon Wiki.
That's it for now. I hope this helps. Please do let me know if you'd like me to put in any additions or make any corrections.
Thanks! -
Quote:Tough doesn't get interrupted *shrug*Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Oh, Tough is OK, Aid Self is bad? You can use Weave, but Aid Self is right out? Aid Self is mostly just a side conversation, but there is nothing wrong with discussing it in he context of builds made for maximum survivability.
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Quote:I play a stone and a SD (I have a WP that is gathering cobwebs for a while now); I've been thinking of making a purely survivability machine of an Elec or Dark tank.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Not correct. They render it less likely to work. I have gotten Aid Self off on top of triple stacked Caltrops. Many (most?) ticks of DoT will come slow enough that you can get Aid Self off, if you slot for interrupt. That being said, DoT does often hinder the power. Certain toggles will always interuupt it (like the Radioligists).
I assume you actually play an Electric tanker. Could you post a build you play? The builds you have posted so far sacrifice so much and have terrible endurance consumption, I can't believe most people would be happy playing either of them.
I am not really discussing what people will be happy playing; I've already conceded that Invuln is a more versatile tank. I'm simply arguing which is a more 'survivable' tank when built for pure survivability, as was the OP's question. -
Quote:Yeah, that _is a really nice build. I like it quite a bit.Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Build please....
On a side note... The build I posted has more HP/sec with DP active... (not counting in the heals)
But as per your request, elec tank with aid-self.
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Quote:I am not saying Aid-Self doesn't work; I have it on several characters, and as I mentioned, on my stone tank (to help with solo tanking recluse).Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I frequently use Aid Self on several characters. Most DoT is easily worked around with one or two Interrupt IOs and paying attention. It is especially easy to use on the types of builds we are discussing, where defenses are high. That is not to say that it never fails me, but it is much more reliable than you might think. I have never had a tanker with it, but my EA brute still uses it and I had it on a Kat/Inv for a long time and both of those characters have been in tanking situations more often than not.
I am simply saying that it cannot be used to determine the survivability of one tank versus another due to it's interruptible nature.
And of course, it doesn't help that 'any' tank can take it, making the survivability comparison redundant. -
Quote:You really have it in for me, don't you? Putting personal remarks aside, regarding aid-self:Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The problem is, you can use that as license to move the goalposts of your argument however it suits you.
Note that one of your builds was sporting Maneuvers. Some people here consider putting Maneuvers on a tank a failure.
Yes, the interruptible nature of Aid Self is a detriment. But many tank sets specifically have non-damage forms of soft-control mitigation that will help prevent powers like this from being interrupted.
Tanking does not merely fit your cookie-cutter image of what a tank "should be".
DoT powers will render aid-self useless, is this correct?
If so, how do we factor in Aid-Self's heal bonus into damage reduction calculations, considering if a DoT power has hit you, it's healing will be 0, otherwise it's healing will be ~45%?
Also, if you're tanking a large group, let's assume that the group has an average chance of 7.75% to hit you (taking the exact middle between the minimum of 5% and maximum of 10.5% of +4 av's), and you have 10 enemies aggro'ed on you. That means that the chance of a hit getting through is? What are the chances of a hit getting through in the 0.5 seconds that you need uninterrupted during aid-self? How long are their attacks taking to cast? How often are they hitting you? How do you calculate all these variables?
The kicker being, what if an elec tank 'also' takes Aid-Self?
Do you see why I am dismissing using aid-self as a damage reduction power for the purposes of calculating survivability? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Buff Inv then?
ok i'll bite...
Cap s/l/c/f/e/n defense
36% f/c res
33.5 e/n res
386% regen
47.5% recharge before hasten
44.9% heal every 11-13 seconds
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Aid self doesn't count as really being a tanker heal in terms of a damage reduction power per se; being interruptible, it can be made useless by several situations, DoT attacks being one common situation. A heal counts for survivability when it _will go off (provided you have the end for it), no matter what. Not just if there are no DoT attacks active on you, or no one manages a hit right as you hit your heal.
None of the calculations made in this thread would work with Aid Self, unless specifically ignoring it's interruptible nature. -
Quote:*sigh*Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Completely and utterly irrelevant. Whether they come from that particular TF, were on-hand beforehand from other TFs, came from SG stores, were bought on the market, etc. It doesn't matter.
Your ideas of "fair game" are laughable. There's only "What works" and "What doesn't work". The latter usually involves you frenching floorboards.
Really, next time, read the rest of the thread before posting; honestly, a _really good idea :-\ -
Quote:This is why it helps to read the full thread before posting (something I myself don't do at times)Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Uh. WHAT?!?!?
I already conceded a while ago that Invuln is easier to soft-cap than /elec and /dark. -
Quote:..and you're not making much sense.Originally Posted by DanZero
No no no no. You're right. It's a masterpiece.
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Quote:What she saidOriginally Posted by Eva Destruction
A massive invasion by extradimensional aliens has devastated our hero population and destroyed huge swaths of our city. Years later, we're still recovering, and they're still there, still trying to figure out how to make a comeback and wipe us out. Issues later, they do make their comeback.
A mysterious group of mages run around kidnapping citizens to use in....some kind of ritual, we're not sure what they're doing exactly...they control demons and spectral soldiers....holy crap those spectral soldiers are really them, they're kidnapping citizens to use their bodies as puppets, and they made a deal with the devil millennia ago. A few issues later you go into the whys and wherefores of said deal.
A low-rent street gang is dealing a drug that gives superpowers to a slightly higher-rent street gang. Then you find out that the source is an established crime family. And then you find out that the drug also allows a small number of users to "pierce the dimensional barrier," whatever that means. Then you find out exactly what that means. Issues later you find out who was behind it all (although if you hadn't at least guessed or speculated who was behind it you weren't paying attention.)
Way back when, the government decided superheroes were a national resource, and should be put to use in defense of their country. In practice, black guys with superpowers were sent out on suicide missions in service of some white guy's agenda. They weren't too happy about that. The Might for Right act was repealed. Some people had a problem with that and passed their own unofficial Might for Right act. And if you weren't on board, they'd kill you.
No plots? No, it doesn't have one single plot, but well, the Incarnate system has a single plot and we get threads like this. Instead, the game established a number of running plotlines so there would be something for everyone. How many people have you run into who dislike fighting CoT because they don't like magic in their comic books, or don't like Malta because they have no powers? Now think of the people who love the idea of fighting evil wizards, or a secret worldwide conspiracy? And it's not like any world that allows anywhere near the diversity of this game's world has a single shared running plot anyway. That doesn't mean they don't have plots.
I've spent hours upon hours just reading up the various plot lines on CoH.
If you think there are no plots in the game, you are really missing out. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Using the builds as posted, plugging numbers into my survivability spreadsheet generates the following results (assuming I typed everything in correctly):
Sorry for the ugly formatting: this is a lot more difficult in our messed up vBulletin than it was with the old forums, or a hammer, chisel, and rock tablet for that matter. The first column is Electric, and the second Invuln. The important numbers are the relative composite numbers:Code:Sustainable Smash 5043.56 11260.89 (points/s) Lethal 5043.56 11260.89 Fire 559.80 1566.69 Cold 559.80 1566.69 Energy 8099.54 2221.42 Negative 1619.91 2221.42 Toxic 243.54 181.34 Psi 400.40 123.20 Nonpositional Psi 229.58 108.97 composite (66% s/l) 1246.66 1015.79 weighted average 3974.61 7878.36 Relative (Invuln = 1) 27.09 22.07 180 second surv Smash 5946.55 15036.49 Lethal 5946.55 15036.49 Fire 660.03 2091.98 Cold 660.03 2091.98 Energy 9549.67 2966.23 Negative 1909.93 2966.23 Toxic 287.15 242.14 Psi 472.09 164.51 Nonpositional Psi 270.69 145.50 composite (66% s/l) 1469.86 1356.37 weighted average 4686.22 10519.85 Relative (Invuln = 1) 18.20 16.80 60 second surv Smash 7752.54 22587.69 Lethal 7752.54 22587.69 Fire 860.48 3142.55 Cold 860.48 3142.55 Energy 12449.94 4455.84 Negative 2489.99 4455.84 Toxic 374.35 363.74 Psi 615.46 247.12 Nonpositional Psi 352.89 218.57 composite (66% s/l) 1916.27 2037.53 weighted average 6109.44 15802.83 Relative (Invuln = 1) 12.76 13.57 30 Smash 10461.52 33914.48 Lethal 10461.52 33914.48 Fire 1161.16 4718.41 Cold 1161.16 4718.41 Energy 16800.34 6690.26 Negative 3360.07 6690.26 Toxic 505.16 546.14 Psi 830.53 371.04 Nonpositional Psi 476.21 328.18 composite (66% s/l) 2585.87 3059.27 weighted average 8244.27 23727.30 Relative (Invuln = 1) 10.17 12.03
Continuous: Relative (Invuln = 1) 27.09 22.07
180 seconds: Relative (Invuln = 1) 18.20 16.80
60 seconds: Relative (Invuln = 1) 12.76 13.57
30 seconds: Relative (Invuln = 1) 10.17 12.03
What this says is that Electric, with a fast recharging Energize, can sustain a higher level of damage than Invuln can: about 23% more. However, on time scales somewhere around 120 seconds or lower, Invuln can sustain higher levels of burst damage on average: 18% more in 30 second bursts.
Its hard to call a winner here, because it depends on what you're most concerned about: sustainable tanking, or alpha strike bursts. With its massively higher health and almost impenetrable smash/lethal performance, Invuln tends to win on burst. With higher healing and regen, Electric will generally win in the long run on long term performance.
Its clear, though, going back to your original assessment:
Invuln is a lot better than I think you were originally giving it credit for. Its the only one you suggested had to give up a lot in the build to soft cap, when its much easier to do so for Invuln than say Dark or Electric, but I don't think you own posted Invuln build gives up a lot for soft-capping, and it can be done even easier than that (your Invuln build even has more recharge than your Electric build - I'd say its Electric that is compromising more to get softcapped defenses, and doesn't even get there with Fire/Cold). And overall, your own Invuln build's survivability is comparable to your Electric's survivability, and while Electric has better long-term survivability and energy drain as a secondary damage mitigation effect, Invuln has better alpha strike resilience - something you yourself originally focused on with mitigation - and better defense debuff resistance to maintain those high defenses.
I'd say when it comes to the absolute best Invuln builds verses the absolute best Electric builds possible (which I'm not conceding either of these are), Invuln and Electric are probably comparable. Everywhere else my guess is that Invuln holds on to that strength better than Electric does. Invuln can keep defenses higher longer, and has invincibility for situations with more than one target to further buttress defense, and the better DDR. And as you take resources away, my guess is that Invuln reconfigures to cheaper but still relatively strong builds more gracefully than Electric.
I think an absolute statement about which one is stronger would be difficult to prove.
Thank you for running the numbers!
So my original post did get invuln wrong, I was under the mistaken impression that it was really hard to soft-cap, especially after I started playing with the build more (reading the data on this thread).
I would still put elec higher in survivability, based on your numbers; but of course, it is a far less versatile tank than invuln.
The only TF I have seen a tank really have issues with burst damage when really well built, has been the STF - in which case, I've seen elec always do much better because of it's high /elec resistance. Almost every other TF, most well built tanks do about the same (again, with the exception of stone, which does considerably better).
What are your thoughts on dark? Considering dark regeneration, I would suppose it would rate higher than everything else on the table? High resistance, easier to soft-cap (not as much as invuln or WP, but more than ice/fire) and a crazy heal power. -
Quote:Originally Posted by streetlight
I'm just throwing this out there, but is the Elec/Elec build even functional? Accuracy is abyssmal, for starters. Assuming you find a way to hit, I don't see any sort of attack chain in the build, so the DPS will be worthless. It softcapped S/L/E/N, sure, but the cost was WAY too high in both influence and lost set bonuses elsewhere.
Looking over the powers available, I just don't see a viable S/L/E/N-softcapped build coming out of Elec/Elec. It'd be better to softcap S/L and get within a small purple of E/N/F/C. You could maintain great survivability working from that angle and still keep some pretense of offense, but it wouldn't be in the same league as Stone, Invuln, WP or Dark.
If I were to build my elec/elec, I'd lower the def to the 40's and simple keep a few small purple's around - but this discussion is around higher survivability of a toon solo, so I assuming it doesn't really mean inspirations. On the flip side, if I were to play an invuln, I'd just keep a few oranges around (though it would take a lot more oranges to cover the resist gap that in would take the elec to cover the def gap).
Either way, to keep things fair, I made both the builds focus on survivability. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So lets address the issue of how expensive it is to build a strong Invuln relative to other sets. I took your Invuln build and just shuffled things around a little bit, knocking out both PvP recipes (+3% defense, +3% resist) which cuts the cost of the build practically in half. It still is soft-capped to s/l/e/n, and s/l/f/c/e/n is still in all cases higher than your Electric build. Psionic, which started off slightly higher in your Invuln build than your Electric build is now a hair under. Resists are now a bit lower with the removal of the 3% resist IO but with the shuffling S/L is still capped.
Technically Hasten is no longer perma in my variant, but its only got a gap of about a second or so.
I'm sure someone else could do better, especially with a clean rebuild, but this was just a quick proof of concept that at least with regard to how much effort it takes to get Invuln to the same high performance as your Electric build gets to, the costs are not higher, they are lower.
As to the relative strengths of the build, I'll be looking at that next.
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I never said Elec is cheap, I said it's more survivable. In fact, throughout the thread (except my initial post) I've argued that it's cheaper to soft-cap an invuln.
Do keep the builds expensive - I wanted to verify/find out, if elec is still worth it despite spending billions upon billions on the build (I do have fully soft-capped invuln builds that are about a billion or so, but you said you wanted to compare 'comparable' builds )