slainsteel
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Posts
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I'm a big fan of data and calculations, so this is what I've done.
I wrote a program some time ago to try to brute force the ideal team composition for the maximum dps run (of course, assuming team survivability not being an issue). I never implemented the brute force algo since, well, I was lazy
but I modified it to include calculations for a tank (ignoring the purple patch for bruising of course).
So these are the findings,
With 2 kins, on a only scrappers or brutes for dps team (for the purposes of my program, I took only one type at a time), assuming you have 60% resistance debuffers (/colds, /sonics and some toons with sonic attack can all manage that), the ideal number of debuffers seems to be 3.
At that point, running the team with a tank (assuming a top dps tank), the loss in dps seems to be about 2% for scrapper dps teams and 5% or so for brute dps teams.
I can't seem to figure out how to attach a zip file to a post, not sure if it's even possible, so I'm pasting the data for the short output; if you're interested in seeing the verbose output and/or the code itself, let me know via PM.
This data is for a +4 enemy (with no resistance) with all team members at 50+1. Other assumptions are that the debuffers will do about 60% of the base damage of the dps toons and the kins will do about 40% base of the dps toons. Damage caps are set to 300% for the kins and debuffers (even if they're corr's, I am assuming lower numbers for them since they won't necessarily be in range for every single FS). Of course as I mentioned earlier, the assumption for debuff would be a stacked of -60% per debuffer.
I've placed the tank's base dps a bit higher than the brute's but lower than the scrapper's.
This is the data for all dps'ers being scrappers; this is the final DPS done to the enemy by the whole team, after accounting for buffs.
Without a tank and with 0 debuffer(s), total DPS is 1562
With a tank and with 0 debuffer(s), total DPS is 1746
Without a tank and with 1 debuffer(s), total DPS is 1942
With a tank and with 1 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2050
Without a tank and with 2 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2192
With a tank and with 2 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2225
Without a tank and with 3 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2315
With a tank and with 3 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2272
Without a tank and with 4 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2310
With a tank and with 4 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2191
Without a tank and with 5 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2175
With a tank and with 5 debuffer(s), total DPS is 1976
The same data for the DPS'ers being brutes,
Without a tank and with 0 debuffer(s), total DPS is 1808
With a tank and with 0 debuffer(s), total DPS is 1991
Without a tank and with 1 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2227
With a tank and with 1 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2310
Without a tank and with 2 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2484
With a tank and with 2 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2468
Without a tank and with 3 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2582
With a tank and with 3 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2464
Without a tank and with 4 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2518
With a tank and with 4 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2303
Without a tank and with 5 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2294
With a tank and with 5 debuffer(s), total DPS is 1976
The clear trend seems that having a tank is only useful when you are not at the optimal number of debuffers. Once you are at an optimal number of debuffers, having a tank starts to hurt more and more as the debuff on the team increases. This is assuming 2 kins who can stack FS enough to get up to 400% +damage on their own each (in the scrappers case, of course, the kins can be a lot more inefficient
).
I've tried this with various inefficiency factors, but the 'trend' is still the same. At optimal team composition, a tank always hurts overall DPS, it just depends by how much.
P.S. :- I realize this data would be suspect till you can see all the calculations, the simple solution to that would be to PM me asking me to send over the full output, and if you're proficient in C++, the code that I wrote to obtain the so you can verify the veracity of the calculations. -
Quote:I have a lot of good friends who run speed teams that way; great players actually. I recognize that's what makes the teams fun for them, and they recognize that I find a different way fun.Originally Posted by Silas
Well, the last line was perhaps uncalled for. My apologies.
My personal stance on this is that if I was putting together a dream team, in all likelihood a Tanker wouldn't be on it. But that would be purely theoretical. In reality, when I form a team, speed or otherwise, I tell people to bring whatever they want.
I've been on a lot of speed runs. My experience is that it matters less what people bring and more that people know what they're doing and are good at moving fast. Pretty much any high level team is going to have some buffing and debuffing on it, with enough brute force to destroy spawns. The difference between bringing a Scrapper and a Tanker just isn't that large.
I'm no great fan of Tankers myself. Hell, I still get regular hatemail from Tankers about the jokes I crack in my guides. I just think its silly to exclude a given AT because with skill and good builds, it doesn't matter what people bring because you'll still destroy TFs.
I don't claim that my way of teaming is the 'right' way of playing the game, in fact, I stressed that this is how *I* run it, if others don't, it doesn't say anything negative or positive about them; theirs is just a different way.
I find it fun to cherry pick teams and get the most optimal teams together and do not think less of anyone else who doesn't.
What gets me is silly arguments like, "how long have you even been playing" or "you don't know anything" that I end up giving caustic replies to.
For example, a particularly irritating type of post is, "Oh, I would never team with you" - really? Was I asking for that person to team with me? I run it my way, you like to run it another way, hey, to each his own? -
Quote:Why thanks.Originally Posted by Silas
No, it doesn't. Vet time arguments I really object to. One of the best players I know has like a year and a bit of vet time. How long someone has played for has very little relation to how well they play. Hell, lots of vets play like complete crap and are convinced they know what they're doing precisely because they've been playing so long.
The game and its mechanics have changed dramatically since launch. The result of this is that playing since way back then doesn't really mean you know more about the game. It means you know more fun anecdotes about how things used to be.
The only thing that makes a real difference to how much someone knows about the game is how willing they are to learn.
In addition to that, someones forum reg date only shows when they registered on the forums. Mine is about 6 months after I started playing. It means nothing. If you want to attack slainsteel, don't use vet time. It's completely stupid and lord knows he's given everyone here enough proof of his foolishness.
Err, even despite the last line, it's good to see someone stand up against the 'oh I am a vet, I know better' argument. That argument is thoroughly irritating, considering the number of 7 year vets I know who still don't quite understand the soft-cap. -
Wow, really, just wow.
Speculation, insults, innuendos abound.
Rather than answer every again and waste my, and I am sure your time, let me conclude with a basic set of facts - y'all can make your own conclusions from there as you undoubtedly will to feel better about your toons.
Fact 1.) There is no tank that you can construct, that you can't turn around into a brute and get more damage out off - if, survivability is not an issue. Brutes get fury, which often stacks to 50-70%, tanks get a -20% resistance debuff (assuming they ALWAYS have their T1 attack in their chain, which sometimes is non-optimal, also assuming their first attack doesn't miss and their chain doesn't go past 10s).
Fact 2.) Some brutes and scrappers are worse than some tanks - if you want to compare, compare the best, the worst or at least something in the same league. Taking a crappy scrapper build and comparing it to the better tank builds is illogical. If you compare the highest damage scrappers to the highest damage tanks, scrappers do more damage.
Fact 3.) Considering the above, my statement still stands; if a tank's aggro management is a waste, the only thing a tank can get to a team is damage - considering a scrapper or brute of a similar level will do more damage, even if a tank is _not_ a significant loss of damage, it will still be an overall loss of damage. Bruising does not make up for it in the various scenarios that speed teams are faced with
Fact 4.) I don't care if someone makes a tank or not, I do care if that tank is coming on my team. At times, I would take a high damage tank over a low damage scrapper or brute, but that is usually an exception case.
Fact 5.) Most tanks are _not built for damage. So unless I am specifically taking a tank from the small percentage of the ones in the game that are built for damage, tanks would usually be a fairly noticeable loss in efficiency (case in point, the FA/SS tank posting on this thread, doesn't even have taunt in his build - that is not indicative of a majority of the tanks on this server)
Fact 6.) The opinions of my teams are baseless. None of you have ever run with us, in fact I believe most of the 'antagonistic' posters here aren't even speeders, right? We have had our off days but 90%+ of our runs are usually within a reasonable range of our best runs, which is more evidence than provided here when bashing my and my team's gameplay
Fact 7.) How long I've been playing the game doesn't change any of these facts. For the record, I recently got my six month badge.
With this I believe I've said that all can be said; anything else would just be regurgitation of the same facts over and over again with different flavors and tints thrown in.
Thanks. -
Quote:Maybe that guy can bench more than the treadmill walkers? At least in the gym, those walkers aren't somehow trying to prove logically that they can do better.Originally Posted by MrLiberty
For anyone who hasn't figured it out yet. He's just trolling people, either that or he might be too dense to see past the end of his own nose. (And those uh-maz-in speed runs)
Like I said, its been done before. You haven't found a better way to do it. Your teams aren't better than the 20 minute ITF's or LGTF's from... at this point 2 years ago? You don't do it more efficiently. The game has just experienced a significant power creep allowing more and more time to be shaved off.
Long story short. You are trying too hard bro. You're like that guy at the gym screaming at people on who are just walking on treadmills "I CAN BENCH MORE THAN YOU, YOU WANT TO SEE? COME FIND OUT HOW WEAK YOU ARE!!!!"
You should really look into zone pvp/fite club. You sound like a natural.
Hey, if you don't like to speed, don't. Just don't offer opinions about how which AT will do better, considering, you haven't really done it enough, so your opinions really mean jack. -
Quote:Well IO'ed toons by themselves are rare. What's your point?Originally Posted by Auroxis
Not particularly good? most of the times over that pre-I20 are by either DM/SD scrappers(who require set-up times) or SS/FA Brutes. Time under 5 minutes were pretty rare.
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Quote:Oh lovely, thank you so much. I was really looking forward to these numbers.Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
I see, it seems I read too far and with that read too many replies which lost focus of the thread's intention quickly.
In that event... the times:
STF has been done in 22:38 before. This was with temps, but it was also in i19, so if incarnate powers can more or less offset shivans/chem/bio then that sub 25 should definitely be possible.
Whether or not it's been done yet I'm not sure.
I haven't seen any recent numbers appear of exactly what you're asking for, MO versions of those TFs with full teams, that is.
But there have been a few times floating about that can be compared to these to give an idea of how good/bad it is.
MoITF was done in 18:28 "recently" as said in that post when it was 30-04. If at that time it was "recently" it was at just about the time the patch came that made our reactives do silly things. It's highly likely such reactives were not involved in that time in which case I'd think your MoITF time could still be improved a bit.
There was apparently a Tin Mage also before crazy reactives that was done in 13:something.
Granted, people may have died, but for comparison sake that's irrelevant. Temps weren't used which is all that matters, if people died that just means they could've saved more time by not dying and having to run back. Any time you were to put into improving your MO Tin Mage time would most likely not be wasted.
Another interesting thing to take note of is it seems that the more incarnate powers everyone has the less each individual person still matters.
Ofcourse you still need a minimum number of people to make it work, but on an incarnate team any additional people beyond that won't cut the time down by as much as on a non-incarnate team anymore.
Example:
You've done MoITF in 17:58. I'll assume that was with a full team.
If so, I've done an MoITF 153 seconds slower... with 6 people less...
The same people that ran the before-mentioned MoITF also did an MoKhan in 19:44 (have you done any MoKhan btw?).
Here the difference is a bit bigger, but still small enough to illustrate my point: duo MoKhan took 25:50.
That should give a few ideas to put your times in perspective.
For the exact runs you asked about I'll nudge the usual suspects that may've run them recently in-game in case they haven't seen this thread yet.
So regarding the MoKhan, yes, it took us 21m, definitely slower than the time you mentioned.
Regarding the ITF, I know it can be done much faster - I've had friends do MoITF's in 15m or so pre-i20, regular ITF's in 13m even.
I suspect similar times with MoLRSF; but with an MoSTF, I have not really seen accounts of it being done that fast (btw, we just did a 26m 0 deaths, no temps STF) - every run that I've seen under 28m seems to have been with temps. Of course, Shivans + HVAS + nukes are actually more powerful than most incarnate content due to the crazy debuffs and damage. I don't believe even Incarnate powers match that yet. Plus can't people keep just refreshing their HVAS if they have enough vanguard merits? I am not a big fan of MSR's so I haven't been able to test this on my own.
Which is why MoSpeed runs seem to be a much more reliable indicator of actual team time versus how many teams the team members got. -
Quote:5 minutes is not particularly fast compared to a really good scrapper/brute.Originally Posted by Auroxis
I found that part hilarious.
If you were to read the Rikti Pylon thread, you'd see Nihilii has soloed a pylon with his FA/SS Tanker in under 5 minutes well before issue 20 hit. -
Quote:a.) Why don't you let Arcana speak for herself? I am pretty sure if she had something to say, she wouldn't need you to explicate it for her.Originally Posted by Nihilii
The same "data" that you didn't deliver when Arcanaville prompted you for it, I suppose.
As to why you might want to post a video, I will refer you to your own words.
"I've been proven wrong about AT's before and I would like to be proven wrong if it helps my teams get things done more efficiently."
It's obvious there are several key things you don't know about playing/building a highend tanker, and possibly a highend build in general (most telling thing for me was the part where you said good tankers don't have slots to put procs in attacks). If I had to play armchair psychologist, I'd guess you probably have a solid group of friends who know how to play together and are way above the average PUGer, but none of you probably understand the inner workings of the game much, and you mistake the lack of interest in the particular activity you choose to pursue for a lack of ability, and go on to assume you're the best at everything and nobody else knows better. Other telltale signs, in just the latest reply, would be you pointing out the rikti pylon thread results. There's several flaws in taking out rikti pylons as a DPS benchmark, although it is a good and easy to access approximation, provided one understands its limitations.
So, if you want to learn more, put some effort into it.
As for DM/SD brutes, they're good characters as far as ST DPS goes, but nowhere in the same league as DM/SD scrappers. Anyone who understands the basics of both ATs and powersets should get that. Namely : DM and SD rely on heavy selfdamage buffing to deal their damage. Scrappers start at high base damage and have the highest damage mod, which means they get a significant buff from these buffs.
Quick and dirty calculation : assume 2 from base + enhancements, compare to 1.5 from 10 target SD and 0.8 from 10 target AAO, you're looking at more than doubling your damage.
Now, brutes start at lower base damage and ramp up through Fury. That means proportionally, damage buffs do less as they operate at ~350% rather than ~200% like scrappers do. Additionally, brutes get lower damage mods than scrappers.
Same kind of calculation : 2 (base + enhancements) + 1.5 (75% Fury), compared to 1.2 (SD at 10) + 0.65 (AAO at 10). Now, we're barely looking at a 50% damage increase.
Add to that Brutes get Gloom, generally stronger ST sets (i.e. SM and SS), and can pick the most damaging secondary (/FA) without trading aggro capabilities for it.
If you feel AoE damage isn't useful on speed TFs, you're probably running several things in a suboptimal way. Most multiple AV fights, for example, are done faster with AOE spam than ST damage. Generally, AOEs start being a better option as soon as you have 4 targets or more. LRSF, STF and ITF all include multiple AV fights.
There is little point to make a Fire/SS tanker rather than a SS/Fire brute in my opinion ; but then again it doesn't have much relevance to the argument. You came arguing that tankers are worse than scrappers (a phrasing that, by the way, implies that every scrapper should be better than every tanker, or in other words, a MA/regen scrapper should be better than a Fire/SS tanker ; good luck with that), I pointed out that this isn't my experience. Come to think of it, I can now think a point for you to roll a Fire/SS tanker - so you'd actually have some experience on something you speak about so confidently.
Words, words, words. I say words are overrated, moving pictures are much better ; and in your roundabout way you've drew the white flag to my video request, so I guess I should stop here.
b.) Want me to get a video? Give me a link to a free and good video recording software for a mac, I'll get you your 'raw video'
c.) I did not say ANY tank is better than ANY scrapper. Give me a fully IO'ed and incarnated stone tank, I'd take him over a SO'ed KM/Regen scrapper - the argument is about even specifics and builds between the two AT's
d.) I learn faster than you, I am smarter than you and you are actually starting to sound more like a belligerent idiot - want proof? You *still* can't wrap your mind around the fact that my teams are ALWAYS buffed. You keep talking about my teams as if they run like the ones you've been on. They don't, get over it.
e.) It's not about you not wanting to run like our teams, it is about you not being capable of running like our teams. Hell, you'd probably be out on your *** in no time if someone even gave you an invite to our group -
Quote:Oh did I walk over your marked territory? I'm sorry.Originally Posted by Clouded
You come into the Tanker Forum and trash the AT and then refuse to provide any proof of your claims.
Put up or shut up. I don't care about your speed run times since you could be the weakest link and the 7 other players are just carrying your dead weight.
Next time, try to know what you're talking about rather than jumping in where you think you can actually say something that makes sense without knowing what you are talking about.
Really, you don't; make any sense that is, considering you probably need me to clarify that for you too. -
Quote:Oh because I'd of course love to take the trouble of recording a raw video on a mac when an argument doesn't show any merit in terms of just pure logic, right?Originally Posted by Clouded
Figures you would try to squirm out of the argument when someone put up a challenge for you.
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Quote:No, but a lot of our players in Speed Club have Fire/SS tanks, they make good farmers. We've had extensive discussions about the merits and demerits of tanks/scrappers/brutes of all kinds along with data.Originally Posted by Nihilii
Yes, I've played those alts. I doubt you have ever played a Fire/SS tanker.
Are you going to keep throwing meaningless words around, or take me up on the offer of posting actual video proof?
Why would I bother posting video proof on this? You're trying to convince me that a Fire/SS tank can out-damage a DM/SD; that is um, kind of silly. Read the Rikti Pylon Thread, or talk to someone who knows how to actually play the game. Hell do a search for highest melee dps, you'll see calculations that place DM/SD scrappers and brutes as some of the highest DPS toons in the game.
If you want to argue that SS gives more of AoE damage, well, in all the scenario's I've stated till now, AoE damage is really the least useful unless it is very specific situations like the traitors in the ITF and the AoE is significantly higher.
Lastly, if I don't care about survivability, why would I make a Fire/SS tank over a SS/Fire brute? -
Quote:Have you actually played those toons? You're really starting to sound like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.Originally Posted by Nihilii
Another miss, I'm afraid. See, DM/SD is a combo that relies heavily on selfdamagebuffing. If you assume external buffs are going to up all the time, then FM/SD does slightly better ST damage as well as much higher AoE damage. As I already said, FM/SD doesn't compare ; so DM/SD, being lower on the food chain than FM/SD, doesn't compare either.
Furthermore, if you don't run on speed teams regularly, you really do not have any real data to comment on this subject. -
Quote:There's the disconnect I suppose.Originally Posted by Nihilii
Nope, a DM/SD/Pyre (best case scenario) is well below. The ST damage is only higher if surrounded with targets or capped through external buffs, the AOE damage is a lot lower.
I am speaking about high end teams. Everyone has buffs, all the time, even when they're out solo'ing stuff. Of course when solo'ing their buffs may get lighter, but they're there. On my Dark/SD, soul drain usually is perma, and of course assuming good players, they would only hit it when they have 5-6 enemies in range, then move on.
Hence I believe we're talking about very disjoint gaming scenarios. -
Quote:Ahem, um, no offense but, not asking for advise, asking for dataOriginally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Word for word what I would've told you until a good month ago. Litterally, precisely.
You won't know if you won't try and obviously you don't have to try, but... you know, just leaving my advice.
If you would've suggested to me what I just suggested to you before i20 or even when it was just out I would've told you to go bug someone else with rediculous ideas, but now I'm having more fun than I've had ever since i8 and all the time I missed out on that was because I thought what you just said applied to myself just as much.
All I changed was I started ignoring 50 content, bar the odd duo run I only do because it's fun thanks to a fun duo partner.
Take it or leave it, but yeah... that's my advice.
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Quote:I totally missed this post.Originally Posted by Obitus
Bluntly, no one cares what you -- slainsteel, specifically -- choose to do with your high-end teams. Your logic here is circular: "Why would I want a Tanker on a team that already has a Tanker's greatest strengths covered?" The answer is that you wouldn't, but not every team has invincible Illusion pets coming out of its ears. Believe it or not, there are even high-end teams that might actually want to have a meatshield for certain encounters.
(The Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF is perhaps the best example in non-Incarnate content; even with 8 buff/debuff sets, support characters can still be two-shotted in that scenario if they're not careful).
All you've managed to demonstrate is that your teams don't need or even want Tankers, or Scrappers, or Brutes, or Blasters, or really anything that isn't a debuff build. That's fine. It's not a particularly interesting observation, though. The game was, I'm grateful to say, designed not to enforce rigid team roles. Of the above list, I'd still say that Tankers are the most generally appealing to teams of all shapes and sizes. You haven't even really tried to make a plausible argument to move me from that estimate.
So what you are really missing is that this game DOES enforce particular team roles if you want to run really efficient teams.
I *am* specifically talking about the case when the leader can cherry pick his team's AT's, not teams that unfortunately don't have illusion trolls in any number that they want/need.
Otherwise a team of 8 tankers should be able to run a STF as fast as a team of 8 Ill/Cold trollers. -
Quote:However unreasonable as it may sound, I am in the constant quest to 'beat the game'; which in the context of an MMoRPG is basically impossible.Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Dunno what mobs you fight or what toons you play but even on +4 just about the only thing that doesn't seem to immediately drop dead when I look at it is Rularuu.
So you invest all that time in making all your toons full incarnates and then pay your sub just so you can spend another month of repeating 10 minute BAF/Lambda runs?
Well, that's cool if that's your thing, I guess.
In theory you're right, in practice it makes no sense at all.
@OP
Agreed, we've become massively OP. i20 drove me off 50s in no time.
But... it's not necessarily a bad thing. Simply not logging on those 50s, but rather playing lowbies again can be really fun. Maybe you don't find it fun, maybe you do... hard to tell - one thing is sure though: you can bring back that challenge in the game.
Moreover, you can still do those TFs. Even in crazy ways you shouldn't even be trying.
For instance: duo ITF on +0x4 by 2 lvl 39s (SK'd by TF to 49 - thus an effective rep of +1x4) using nothing but SOs for enhancements.
Whether or not you find it fun will differ per person, but it sure worked for me. Give it a go I'd say. Find someone who likes to play the same way and at the same pace as yourself and roll lowbies together. Old school gameplay - especially now with the incarnate mess - cannot be beaten.
Plus I bet for most people there are still some story arcs out there they've never run yet.
Which is why I prefer that my toons be at the most optimal build possible, both in IO's and now in Incarnate content.
Again, I understand but not necessarily complain, about the ease of the 50 content with IO's and incarnate powers. My goal is just to get benchmarks, nothing else. -
Quote:I think it's meant toOriginally Posted by Steelclaw
Slainsteel... for some reason I can't quite define... your name disturbs me... greatly.
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Quote:I log in usually after 12-14 hours of work myself; that doesn't mean I want to run unoptimized teams. Usually 'to each his own' works well - which of course is a concept that you're not accustomed to.Originally Posted by New Dawn
Beat your times, hmm I may well end up doing that. I do happen to belong to a Speed group, whatever is done is down to the team and if you read my Sig I don't tend to brag about it. We'll see what comes but when it comes is down to plenty of other people and what they have got on with their lives.
I think the no life loser part is a bit harsh. If you've garnered that from my post then that was unintentional, most players are happy just logging in after a hard days work where like me they run a business and are happy just letting go of authority and anything serious. I'm in engineering and coming home to do maths is something I'd try to avoid as its a bit like a painter coming home from decorating to do decorating.
I don't force anyone to join my teams. Hell, I created a channel with now 100+ members simply to gather people who like to play the game like I do.Quote:Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't like excluding people so naturally I couldn't give a monkeys if there were stalkers, masterminds, tankers and peacebringers in a speed team, what does matter to an extent is how they adapt. So if you are the type to exclude somebodies beloved character from a team that they worked so hard on then you are no better and perhaps worse than little old personality attacking me.
On speed teams, I do not bring un-optimal toons and I expect everyone else to do the same. When I PuG, I clearly advertise what I need and that it _is a speed run.
This discussion doesn't really seem to be anymore about if one has a reason to take a tank or not, but rather about people's sensitivities about leveling and building up a toon that well, is actually not optimal and then complaining that people like me care. -
Quote:What exactly do you mean by playability? The ability to cruise through without worrying about any damage at all? A scrapper and brute needs to be more active in procuring and sustaining survivability, but it doesn't really hamper their DPS if they're good. With a tank, you get the survivability much easier but lose on DPS.Originally Posted by Nihilii
I don't think I've ever seen a scrapper of any kind outdamaging a Fire/SS/Soul tanker in ST *and* AoE damage - obviously some scrappers do better in one of these areas, but it has to be both as both are important in a speed TF. FM/SD/Pyre might come close, but the smaller radius on FSC really put a dent in actual playability (which translates to real DPS) in my experience.
Try a DM/SD scrapper or brute; if you play it well, a SS/Fire tank will pale in comparison.Quote:Originally Posted by Nihilii
Incidentally, while I don't run optimized teams, the times I managed to get with my friends aren't too far from what the speed crowd reports (at least in public), and before I played my SS/Fire brute all my fastest TF runs were done with my Fire/SS tanker, a much superior character than my FM/SD, ELM/SD, DB/Inv, DB/WP and DM/Inv scrappers.
..and as I said, Fire/SS tanks are usually comparable to lower end scrappers and brutes if built for damage. Unfortunately, most aren't. A tank usually is, and should be, built for survivability over damage. Guess what, that's what usually happens.
I will not take a claws/regen on a MoLambda over a Invuln/DM tank - but that is an exception case. I am speaking about the majority case here, in which, tanks are really much better replaced by debuffers, buffers or pure DPS. -
Quote:Huh?Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No items. Fox Only. Final Destination
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Quote:You need to get on better teams.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I should be the last person arguing this, but no, not always nowadays. Between Scrappers and Brutes slotting less damaging IO sets in their attacks in search of defense bonuses, and Tankers now having access to Bruising, Musculature and Reactive, I've seen a fair share of Tankers matching and out-damaging the Brutes and Scrappers around them on raids and trials.
You don't even want to know what I think you are.Quote:Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
As it's been stated, unless your team is hitting the -300 cap for resistance debuffs, Tankers are increasing the damage the team does to hard targets like AVs and EBs by 20%. And they sometimes do it faster than a debuffer can even anchor it.
I think you're delusional, and not in the fun way like I am.
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Quote:Beat my times then let's talk.Originally Posted by New Dawn
Whilst I'd have to yawn my way into a position of either agreeing or disagreeing with you, oh wait, the difference between a tanker and a brute on a speed TF run is too small with the luck factor that is always there, I'd say that anyone who cares has too little of a real life.
Oh of course, that would mean I am a no life loser and you're infinitely better because you don't care as much, right?
Great way to win a discussion, go straight to personal attacks. -
Quote:Nice, particularly for pre-i20Originally Posted by Nihilii
It was all four badges.
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Quote:Sweet, is that just with the midnight dodger's badge? Or all 4 badges?Originally Posted by Nihilii
Done a MoTin in under 19 minutes in I19.
I think we took about 18-19 minutes to get all 4, but 14m to just get the dodger, hacker and finish the TF.
Waiting through Neuron's clones was a bit of a pain, plus the crazed bobcat.
