lionsbane_EU

I agree with the concepts you've suggested (although not all the solutions.)and actually alluded some of this in the CoH2 thread.

I havent bothered with PvP since the changes but I'll go on the oveerriding opinion that they are a royal mess.
Regardles of that for the moment, PvP is neatly tucked away out of sight of normal PvE.
But is that such a smart thing?

Apart from anything else a key issue is lack of accessability to Pvp. Particularily now when the servers are so quiet.

It is entirely possible to go to a zone and find no one to fight in the first place. Many players never see a fight at all.

Why cant base raids be extended to any zone in the game?
That way SGv SG raids will be more exciting, fighting all over city maps, more accessable, and other players could watch and maybe, just maybe want to try PvP for themselves.

I think the more people who see PvP in action, the more likely they are to want a go themselves.

Ii'm aware there is a serious issue with the PvP powers .One which may put off any newcomers to PvP.

I stated that I feel Cryptic actually got it near as damn it right first time round and since then have only succeeded in driving it too far away from a concept that was working and only had to be built upon and not taken apart entirely.

So how they fix the current scenario, or even if they are going to, is any bodies guess.

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After all, the scarlet witch isnt gonna do all that well in a fight with Thor is she? - Unless she gets that one hex in.

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Which she will succeed in doing 100% of the time if the story requires it

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Yeah but that's the point. this isnt a story. It's live playing so you cant apply your point here.

I do think that conceptually they were on the right road initially and there are ways of evening up an imbalanced fight.

My feeling revolves around 2 things that are just that-feeling cause theyde require massive playtesting.

Firstly, a kind of adrenaline blow, similar to critical hit but even more powerful- the downside being it leaves you wped out. Like that final superman doomsday punch.

Secondly a much wider array of temp powers or weapons players can craft or buy that would help them out if they know theyre up against an opponent theoritically stronger than them (ie a psionic bomb if a defender know they are likely to face a tanker.)

these last ditch attacks give you a mathematical chance of a hit. And a win.

As I say it would take quite a while to work out the details and then play test, even if itwas deemed viable.

But I dont know of a better way. Then again, I'm not paid to do a 9 to 5 job thinking these things up with all the information and data that I need at my disposal.

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Second, I really don't think it's possible to ever have a totally balanced PvP system in any game that has a wide variety of powers and weapons.

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I tend to agree. I actually think they got it round about right first time around. Tankers were the toughest to beat unless you had psionics, and certain defenders were squishys. that made a certain thematic sense. After all, the scarlet witch isnt gonna do all that well in a fight with Thor is she? - Unless she gets that one hex in.

It was more scissors / rock and they admited was designed more for teaming PvP than solo.

My opinion is , if youre playing a defender then you shouldnt really expect to do that well in solo PvP anyway.

But I dont know if that approach, as thematic as it is, is a populist approach with a typical player. Its a hard call.

Back to the main point, If they are, behind the scenes creating CoH2, that would explain why there is so little (given the staff expansion and the upcoming competition) in i13 and i14 (as proposed.)

It would also explain the lack of imagination they have put into the last few issues, because maybe theyre saving the really cool stuff for COH2.

Aa I'm writing its making so much sense I actually think that may be what's going on.

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Iv done it at least 300 times with every single possible team from bad to best,

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Holy moley.

What aggravates me is all it takes is a little thought and planning.

Take base raids for example. Why do they have to be limited to bases? Why cant two SGs, of either villian v hero or same side v same side duke it out in a city zone? And i dont mean an instanced one. I mean in the same zone that we play but they, having been allocated, can fight and any other player cant join in?

Why cant the devs invent some incentive for these battles?
They dont even have to invent em. There are hundereds of JLAvJSA or X men v Avengers stories they can swipe to create a compelling reason to fight.
Who knows? Maybe some PvE players would get the PvP bug.

The players would love it. And they'de be great to watch too. I could go on and on.

Just a bit of imagination and forward planning is required to spruce this game up no end.

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um, we know for a fact that there are 130k active accounts that log in to CoH...

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there are 124,000 (last count) subscribers.

As there are an average of only 13,000 players active at any given time over 15 servers that leaves a lot of lee way for inactive accounts too.

Actually i wonder how that metric compares to other games? Are those figures available?

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In most games now (MMO wise) PvP is just as important than PvE. Due to the potential customers it brings.

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CoH does seem to be an exception, though.

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Does it? Where is the massive player base then? I do think its suffering because it doesnt understand PvP properly.

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No, PvP was brought in for the Korean launch, because the Korean market is very different, and a MMO without PvP is unthinkable. Why where Cryptic told to adapt CoH to the Korean market? Because NCSoft is a Krean company.

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Just to clear this point up once and for all. PvP was planned way way way before the game launch. The arenas were announced pre beta as part of the planned game.
that they didnt actually develop the PvP aspect of the game at that point, even though they planned to introduce it, has actually proven to be one of many many own goals cryptic are responsible for. And to be fair, in hindsite, they admit this.


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To improve something you need to change something. Changing a game some people enjoy playing is bound to tick off those people, even if those changes are, generally, an improvment.

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Like Ed you mean? the big question has to be do ENOUGH people enjoy, over a sustained period of time, City of Heroes as it is?

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Sometimes things are better left alone, even if they aren't perfect.

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I personally dont think this applies to CoH, though I accept that changes to the gameplay of CoH must be handled in a very delicate way.

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By the time CoX2 actually launches, CO will probably have shut down anyway.

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Exactly why do you think that?

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first i want a dev confirm it, then i can believe it.

They won't confirm it until they are ready to anounce it with a big splash, which will likely, just by coincidence, be around the same time as CO goes live.

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That's kind of after the horse has bolted don't you think?

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No it isn't. As the Massively article points out, people are more likely to stick with CoX if they think it is going somewhere (which is why the idea of character transfer is so important).

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Character tranfser is critical, i agree. But you are way wrong if you think that announcing a future Co2 will prevent people from currently moving over to and possibly likeing CO.

The only way COH2 has a chance is if they announce it before CO comes out.

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As it is, it won't matter anyway, as CO is going to bomb, but they would have made thier plans long before that became apparent.

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Hmmmm. I don't think your field is marketing is it?
So, you are hardly qualified to make that statement.

There is no reason at all to think Co will fail. At least not till the runaway locomotive called DC Online comes charging through the station, anyhow. then it may have problems, but that will largely depend on just how good Dc actually is.

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PRAF shut the god damn [censored] up ---- Yes CoX does need PvP, becoz without it a lot less ppl would have joined this game that is fact, all i hear (see) from u the majority of the time now is stupid badly thought out comments. go back to your cave you stupid arrogant know it all troll (and before u ask if i get banned for this its worth it)

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It may need PvP but it's not going to get it in any meaningful way. This is not because of percieved imbalances of powers per se but because the invention system has created a few haves (many of whom like to PvP) and a majority of have nots.
This means those who arent loaded with inventions havent a chance against those that have. And, realistically, they can never get them. So they're gonna get fed up losing and not bother with PvP.

Additionally the motivation to actuaLly enter PvP theatres is pretty meager. The zones arent exciting enough, awards/rewards not compelling enough etc etc etc. (Sirens is to my mind an exception to that rule.)

Those are the issues that needed addressing. I will lay money that all they have achieved with the messing with PvP pwers is they have lost PvP players (maybe players have quit altogether)

If I'm right, does anyone think that the arbitary, un discussed power changes were a good idea?

If these devs would just brain storm the consequences of doing this or doing, rather than just deciding without consultation, what is best for us, that we would all save so much grief...

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first i want a dev confirm it, then i can believe it.

They won't confirm it until they are ready to anounce it with a big splash, which will likely, just by coincidence, be around the same time as CO goes live.

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That's kind of after the horse has bolted don't you think?

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First of all there are a total of 79 people on these forums right now. that's at peak time ish.

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Forum peak time != Game peak time.

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And if you'd just read one more line you'de have seen me say " Even if you quadruple that."

By the way its now 11.18 and there are 56 online. If i say times that by six will that do it? It doesnt matter. It's still chickenfeed numbers compared to the number of potential gamers out there, most of whom check reviews of games and not their forums.

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I don't think I have ever said he was a fool (I might think it at times )

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It wasn't you that said it, Mere. Sorry if my post made it appear that way.

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For the record. Pug Ugly????

I couldn't disagree more. This game looks fine. In fact I don't even know exactly how fine because my graphics can't even deal with the full graphics on mode.

Sure, there are games which look even better. So what, I can't play those anyway. I dare say I am not the only one here.

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Even I think that graphically speaking, the game still rocks. Not to say that it couldnt do with a spruce up but still, for an old timer, pretty damn good.

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Also, I think people are missing the point here. The whole point of the thread WASNT to discuss about the EU server populations. I was explaining why the EU populations are the level they are now!

Ugh, I'm not trying to start a DOOM thread here, but "EU populations" seems to fit into the DOOM section for a lot of people...

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Sorry Phantoms you were not explaining why. You were giving your opinion as too why and as it was your opinion others are entitled to agree or disagree with you.

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Not sure how that qualifies him to be labelled a fool, mind you.

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So you're telling me there were doom threads in 2004-2005?

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Yes.

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First of all there are a total of 79 people on these forums right now. that's at peak time ish.

Even if you quadruple that number then account for the fact that not everyone reads every thread, you are hardly left with the fact that the tone on the boards are in any way responsible for any activety in game or lack of.

Secondly, yes there were doom threads in 05 but they revolved around flash points like Ed and global nerfs. Generally, even critical threads, such as I do frequently were not doom threads.

And, as with very other media or any other entertainment, the game governs the mood of the forums/ critiques, not the other way round.

So, if there are doom threads about then there is only one direction with which to look. And its not at the players.
Sorry.

Phantom is wrong in his assessment of why the servers are quiet because, as has been pointed out, new players dont know the context for content anyway.

the big question is how do any meaningful number of potential players even know the game exists?

Its the overall state of the game (players leaving) against extremely limited advertising that is causing this.

Why isnt NC advertising this game in the uk in any serious, substantial manner?
That is one very key question.

The answer is very straightforward and its why it was a HUGE mistake to ever give Europe and the United States seperate server systems.

It's because the return on an advertising campaign here yeilds a far lower return than a pro rata campaign would do in the USA.

On a like for like basis, UK advertising rates are far more expensive. And they serve a much smaller circulation.
And, typically per head, there are more MMO players in the States than there are in the UK.

If I'm being fair, up till now, the UK has done well to hold itself to this level.

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To add to the pedantry... WoW is Super Hero MMO. CoH, Co and DCO are COMIC Super Hero MMOs.

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You always know you hit a nerve when people get pedantic on you.

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Another LB "CoH is Doomed Because It Has Not Met My Expectations" Post.

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Acually its my 2nd. Until this year my posts built around my frustration thst the game was going, to my mind, the wrong way. This year, because NC bought the game from Cryptic, until the announcement of i13 and i14 my posts were pretty positive. That was when I realised they have no idea as to how to compete the the shiny games coming from just around the corner.

The only barometer on me being right or wrong is the subs. If they have any time gone up then I guess I'm wrong.
Where are they now exactly?

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Frankly, my take on it is this: If NC fail to deliver a game that can match up to the graphical, game play and features of CO and DCO, we, the player base will migrate to those other two games. Result? We get a better Super Hero MMO.

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Very true. Just a shame. I have been playing this one since day one and it will be a shame if that happens cause this one could have offered enough for that not to happen.

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We win.

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We do. i just feel a loyalty to this one that I now realise is undeserved.

I said before, I'm a bit like a newcastle united fan.

Love the team, cant bear the management or the type of long ball football they deliver to us fans. Or the results.

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Fact: If word of mouth and reviews of those games are good there will be an almighty exodus from here.

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Pure speculation.

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Is it?
Well there are quite a number of us (me included) who applied for closed beta on the new game. Thats just from these boards.

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After all i14s name is mission architecht so, even if it offers other stuff, it doesnt take a genius to figure out where the thrust of that issue is coming from.

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Yes... something that a fairly significant proportion of the playerbase has been absolutely crying out for. So why the doom?

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How many people will use the architecht is debatable. We cant comment until we see its scope.

Personally I am not impressed by it long term because, while there is a novely appeal to playing a player created game, firstly it will still be same offices, same minions ,same luietenants and same bosses.

Secondly, if it is successful and brings in innovation then it poses the question: why the bloody hell arent the devs serving up that quality of missions now??

So, taking the assumption that the reason they arent is because the most it will give you is pretty much what we get right now, cept maybe you can turn left instead of right, and can add a contact or whatever in the mix, I cant get excited about it. But, in fairness, thats only my opinion.

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Lions, sorry, haven't read through all of this thread, and don't have time to, right this moment.

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One question: You mentioned taking an averagely slotted character up against a setted one. Was this on Test Server or last night after I13 went live?

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No it was prior to test.

Does it make a difference in the sense that sets make me way more powerful than non sets?

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You sure you don't want to reconsider that "I'm not a doomster" assertion?

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Fact: There is one super hero game
Fact:Anyone who likes the idea of playing a super hero on an mmo comes here.
Fact:There are soon to be other super hero games
Fact: they will have the success and failures of this game to look at and learn from
Fact: On the face of it at least they will have: end game, crafting, abilty to pick and mix powers, better customisation, destructable enviroments etc etc
Fact:At least some of the people that pick up that game initially will come from here.
Fact: If word of mouth and reviews of those games are good there will be an almighty exodus from here.
Fact: This game has had the time to implement things to ensure minimal rather than maximum damage when that arrives.

Opinion: What it has put forward so far in terms of I13 and i14 is not even close to offering suffient numbers of current players a reason to stay here.

After all i14s name is mission architecht so, even if it offers other stuff, it doesnt take a genius to figure out where the thrust of that issue is coming from.

Seems to me all they've done of any significance is isolated a section of the very crowd they want to improve. And, Castle, who i've warned about before, did it in a very statesman esque way.

I was really encouraged at the begining of this year because it seemed to me that if NC has bought the franchise knowing competition was coming, that they had mighty plans to forestall it.

Maybe thats the case in which case- fantastic. I'm not riding my mortage on it though.

As it stands? Yes I suppose I now am. Sorry

Perhaps if someone could point to where the subs have gone up in real terms rather than down Ide hold my hands up and say I'm wrong.
And glad to be so.

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I am a casual player. Multi-builsd let me take the fun powers on a character plus let me have a leveling build that's more practical. Great for RP. Or let me have a human form and a dwarf/nova form PB/WS without having to level two.

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Yes but my point revolved around the fact that this issue was devoted primarily to PvP. I'm arguing that this whole thing from a PvP perspective will actually make it less popular than before.
The extention of the game wasting an entire issue on this, so close to CO coming out could be, to my mind, catastrophic.

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Either which way we are all in the same boat with regard to it all - so in a way everyones even.
Fiscally anyway.

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Mother, that is incorrect and is the core of what I'm saying.
We're not equal at all. Those who can play for umpteen hours per day and are happy to endlessly farm have a distinct advantage over those of us who dont.

And there is a lot more of us than of them.

All of which is why this PvP campign they're setting out will fail and why I'm so fed up.

What sparked this off for me was my realisation that their insight is so limited they cant see that giving us dupe versions of chars and no dupe enhancemence is so counter productive to what they want to achieve in giving us this content in the first place.

It's made a great advancement for a very limited number of players and a frustration for the vast majority.

The whole key to making anything, never mind something as complex as PvP, popular is accessability.

And this just made it that little bit harder because the more advanced players will be able to create PvP perfect "monsters" and the rest of us will be even less likely to match them than before.

In a few months this game is gonna see its subs torn like never before. Them focusing on stuff like this while they should have been actually creating innovations to match the new games coming out is a big reason this games going to feel like a tornadoes been whooshing through it.

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This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.

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Assuming that PvP requires heavy Setting of builds, then that will always exclude the casual player, and nothing they can do will ever change that.

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it never used to be like that.

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Yes it did.

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No it didnt. PvP was about your power choices, the way you slotted them and then, to an extent, your ability with the char. i freely admit that in many cases, some sets simply couldnt beat others and that it was a kind of rock, scissors type of event. And I'm not saying that was right.
And, some sets were overpowered and needed fixing. But:

What I am saying is this. I fought Londoner several times and I couldnt dent him once. Not because his build was better necessarily. Or that he was faster on the draw than me but because he was IO setted up and I wasn't.

It's like playing golf against someone who has a club so superior to anything I can afford that I simply cant match his swing or the accuracy his club gives him.

I'm not knocking Londoner at all. Or the guy with the expensive club.

Im saying that, why fight Londoner or anyone of any IO standard at all when I simply CANNOT win? And therefore, why PvP when I know I'm handicapped from the start?

In light of the fact that i13 was devoted to encouraging PvP play perhaps you can explain it to me seeing as I'm being disagreed with?

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For starters, you can't actually be good at PvP unless you spend time learning to do it. Casual players don't really have the time to do that.

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That actually isnt necessarily true although I take your point. But no matter how skillful an unsetted player is, they cannot beat a player with sets.

If I was fighting someone who had a better power selection than me or was slotted better (pre ed i mean. All slots are much of a muchness now, particularily with melee based chars)then thats fine. I can potentially improve my build or slotting. But if I simply cannot win, what is the point?

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Second, either you can get by without large amounts of Sets in place or you can't. Putting in multi-builds has not changed that at all.

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If I cant afford to fill up one char with setted ios then wehat possible chance do I have with two? Even normal IOs are expensive.

I seem to remember that everyone thought ED was justified when IOs came in.
Ah that was why they dropped our powers- so we can regain some of them through inventions.

If you are now suggesting to me that I should use SOs for my PvE version (which is by far the most predominant aspect to most peoples game) and set IOs (assuming I can afford them which I cant) for PvP then that throws that theory out of the window doesnt it?

As far as I am concerned, set IOs are too difficult to achieve, they have created a have and have not division in the game that manifests itself primarily in PvP.

And the only realistic way to catch up is not through gameplay as such but farm farm farm. It is ludicrous.

And they are yet another reason that the subs are going down not up. And because you are one of the haves, you dont appreciate that.

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I can afford them

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And how exactly did you aquire the hundreds of millions necessary? Let me take a wild guess. A whole lot of farming.

Im not knocking you. But what a way for a develop team to allow a game to run!

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What a let them eat cake philosopy that is.

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Do you actually know what that means?

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I'm not happy with that patronising question. It means I'm alright Jack so who cares about the have not? They can make do with what they've got. It's an attitude you are suggesting to me that you possess.

Especially with your "I can afford them" comment.

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My logic is not faulty at all. And I havent created the doom. They have.

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You have stated that multi-builds changes the game to make it impossible for casual players to get into PvP, when actually, it's the opposite.

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You think? Well if the subs go up in the next quarter then maybe youre right.

I bet anything they will drop again.

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Your logic is based on the assumption is that you must have two fully setted builds to function. This is a totally invalid assumption. This is why your logic is faulty.

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My logic is based on the fact that the casual player is not going to want to play one gimped version of his alt and one powered up version. He or she will want both alts to rock. And, may I ask why thats such an awful want?

I think theyll expect it will take time and game play and they'll be happy with that. I dont think they'll want to play old macdonald ad- infinitum to achieve that goal which is where the game is gonna pull them.

And I think the devs have been taking too many of the wrong pills if they think this strategy will in any way advance the PvP cause.
The simple act of duping your enhancements along with your alt would have gone at least some way to addressing that.

The fact it hasnt occurred to them to do that or thinks its not worth taking the time to address possible exploits fills me with dispair.

Cause yet again theyve turned a minor victory into a crashing defeat.

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I'm not the one who has shot the current powers on PvP to bits while trying to improve PvP for the wider masses.

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That is totally irrelevent.

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It's totally relevent.

Someone barbed me about doom.
Well in 6 months or less CO is coming out and this game has been in behind the bycicle shed doing god knows what while it could have been working out how to compete with a new super hero came thats (potentially) going to offer way way more in terms of gameplay, innovation, you name it.

And then, if the game can handle this hit, along is gonna come DC.

And they're runing around "fixing" a PvP when they dont even understand the core problem with it