lionsbane_EU

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Lionsbane,

unless you actually know how the game system works it is ridiculous to ask for changes (and it seems you are unaware how def works)

unless you are aware how other sets in an AT work then it it is ridiculous to call for a change to one of them

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I have no problem with someone questioning, disagreeing with or, at times flaming me.

I have a real problem with people who question my ability to understand the game in general, (that`s to say the overview not necessarily the ATs.)and I have real problem with people who question that I understand Tanking.

I really have come to the conclusion that the general (and therer are several notable exceptions) level of posters here is infantile compared to the USA.

Not because you disagree but because your reasoning is just almost childlike. And to feel the need to insult my intelligence is disingenous to say the least.

There are far far more intelligent people than you(many of whom I was friends with when I played in the USA) who agree that Invul Tanks are under par these days. So I am in pretty distinguished company (as far as CoH goes.)

They all know the solution but they also know the devs won't implement those solutions. So they constantly look for compromises. At the moment the -5% unyeilding is flavour of the month.

If you feel the urge to either attack me personally or my ability to play the game, please desist.

Because that's really low.

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(Seriously, CoT? They hardly even DO damage!)

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You still here?

I confess. I am a lousy Tanker. I don't understand it. It's too hard. All my teams boot me. I keep dying. And I can't save my teammates. And when I see Rikti I get very scared.

Now can you leave me alone?

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Will you miss me?

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I personally feel that one person on this thread has had to answer to too many people at once who have suggestive judgement and/or inciteful words put within text along with non constructive stuff from Hammerfall as usual

I'd hate for these forums to lose anyone to the American Forums cos thats the ultimate low

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love you too.

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I was going by this statement:

With tough and proper slotting you hit the S/L resist cap, while also having quite high defense.

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I`m actually not sure about that. Its possible im confusing energy with S/L. For instance against Nemisis minions, they could never even scratch me, no matter how many they were. Now, I have to be a bit more crareful.

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I do have to ask again.. are you going to put forward any evidence that Inv tanks underperform compared to the other tank ATs?
It is what you are going to need if you want any changes made.

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I have no idea how the others perform. I was referring purely to the Invulnerable Tanker.
And how other ATs perform at 100% of their efficency at a far higher rate than we can.
This is because an increasing amount of time we find our selves against energies we SHOULD have resistances to but no longer do.
This means our primary powers are under performing when every other ATs are performing just fine.
This then means, that in a team that faces, for instance, COT, no matter how well we are performing, because we cannot utilise our primary powers fully, (can't take the damage) any other AT in the game can take our spot and, because their primary is working fine, can fill the team space better than we can. BABOOM.

I'm bored of this now.

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Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers. And I actualy play mine very well. This is a nonsense arguament. That they were slow levellers is a fact not an opinion.

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It's everything but fact. By FAR the fastest way to level solo was playing a fire/ or /fire tank, herding and burning hazard/trial zone spawns.

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You are correct about fire/ fire. However, as the title of this thread is invulnerable tanks, and as I have made it clear I am referring to invulnerable Tanks can you forgive me for assuming you must have known that I was referring to invulnerable tanks from the off?
Fire/ fire were far and away the most powerful Tankers. All the other versions fit into the catagory I described. Slow levellers.

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I was saying we were not unkillable. So, it's fine if it takes a 100+ foes to bring you down, as long as it's possible for you to die?

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100 foes to bring me down? Dont insult me. They wouldn`t have made a dent. However sappers, rikti, malta, etc etc could bring me down the same as anyone else. In fact, as I was the one aggroing the damage, faster.


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We`re actually not as strong against S/L as we once were. Certainly not without tough.

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I`m actually not sure about that.

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Yet you keep making statements like these as if they were facts.

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I apologise. It is a fact I cant get to the cap without tough, (IOs not withstanding.)Clear now?

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Oh, and calling yourself one of the best tanks in the game is pretty arrogant, although considering how you state you can't tank for an 8-man team against rikti, it comes out more as ridiculous.

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ok Maxi. I have never ever mentioned anything about how good I am till that twerp implied I cant tank, just because I brought up this thread.

I won't say how good I am again either.

And do you honestly think I can't stand up against Rikti or anyone else?

You know what, I miss the american forums. No one is as flamy or infantile as here. They just aren't so pedantic. it's mostly adult discussion and they just don't generally try to knock posters from pillar to post the way you do.

And if I could transfer from here to there I just might.
Will you miss me?

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Try a few builds in a hero builder (Mids is a good one).
With Tough it is quite easy to hit the S/L cap for tanks.
Personally I skipped Tough and went the Aid Self/Dull Pain route.

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Thank you for the advice. I did actually state that you can't reach the cap WITHOUT tough.Which implies I know all about tough. I also mentioned that I have it. In fact in the very quote you list I mention that I didn't have it before I5 and which implies I do have it now.

I've just reread it to see if maybe I wrote in an illegible way but no, it's as clear as day.

I tried the aid self route but that doesnt go too well with energy melee. And it felt kind of out of theme somehow.

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to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....

edit: no offense

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For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.

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You certainly dont sound like one.

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Yeah well, I don't write my legend, Hammer. I just live it.

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But it's the same for every AT out there.

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Invulnerable Tankers were hit FAR harder than almost any other AT.

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No, they really weren't. And they're not an AT either.

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Who was hit harder pray tell? And I made a typo about AT. whoopie.

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Surely the defining requisite for overpowered is levelling. Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers.

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Not when played well.

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Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers. And I actualy play mine very well. This is a nonsense arguament. That they were slow levellers is a fact not an opinion.
Maybe if you played 8 man teams every time you logged on you could match the others. But pro rata Tankers were slow levellers.

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Secondly, the only time the Tankers were unkillable is probably middle to late thirties.

After that psionics, sappers, any energy sucker, malta, untyped damage etc, could and did cause us trouble.

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But you don't need to fight those foes, you can make it from 40 to 50 figthing nothing but freaks if you want.

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Why would I want to just fight freaks? And that`s irrelevant. I was saying we were not unkillable.

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We`re actually not as strong against S/L as we once were. Certainly not without tough.

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With tough and proper slotting you hit the S/L resist cap, while also having quite high defense.

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I`m actually not sure about that. Its possible im confusing energy with S/L. For instance against Nemisis minions, they could never even scratch me, no matter how many they were. Now, I have to be a bit more crareful. I dont seem to be quite as incvulnerable in a large crowd.
Oh and I did mention that I cant get there without tough.
I never had tough before i5.
But that could be my imagination I suppose.

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to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....

edit: no offense

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For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.

But comments like this make me decide to drop this thread.
I'll leave the good fight to my American friends who are far more elequent than I am.

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But it's the same for every AT out there.

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Invulnerable Tankers were hit FAR harder than almost any other AT. And in many different ways. And don't forget our damage was mitigated too.

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Tankers back then were way overpowered. and the only chance of dying that they had is either against psionic enemies or if they'd inadvertently wandered into The Hive (even then, they'd have stood for a fair while before falling!)

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First of all, by what definition were invul Tankers overpowered? Ever? (I exclude taunt which WAS overpowered)

Surely the defining requisite for overpowered is levelling. Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers. You were trading the feeling of being "invulnerable" for levelling expediency.

Secondly, the only time the Tankers were unkillable is probably middle to late thirties.

After that psionics, sappers, any energy sucker, malta, untyped damage etc, could and did cause us trouble.

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If the inv tank were like he was pre-I5, then it would be very unbalanced. All builds need to have a weakness.

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We had one. Psionics. And a slow attack chain.

We`re actually not as strong against S/L as we once were. Certainly not without tough. And, to be fair, the level of S/L we can now withstand IS probably about right. But I do see why our resists can't be relative to those levels.

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Try teaming with a sonic defender/troller - they are worth their weight in gold, and you'll feel what it's like to feel pretty much unstoppable again.

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Well, I tend to get invited into teams and don't pick who I team with. And don't care. I team with who I team with.

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In other words I get hit more often.

Er isn`t this the point I was making?

[/ QUOTE ]No. You were claiming that you'd always get hit 5% more often with it on. This is untrue, the actual increase in being hit can be anything between 0% and 100%.

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Then I stand humbled although a bit baffled. My overall point stands. We get hit too often.

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WRT Unyielding.

Vs an even level minion attacking 100 times. If you had 10% DEF and Unyielding took away 5%, you would go from being hit 40 times to being hit 45 times - an increase of 12.5%.

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Ok. In other words I get hit more often.

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If you had 45% DEF and Unyielding took away 5% you'd go from being hit 5 times to being hit 10 times, an increase of 100%.

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In other words I get hit more often.

Er isn`t this the point I was making? That unyeildings 5% debuff means i get hit more often and that these days I think that`s overkill?

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Invulnerability is supposed to suffer vs non-S/L because of its huge S/L resists. Just as Fire suffers vs Cold and Ice suffers vs Fire (Though don't get me started on the imbalance there).

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First off there isa lot less fire and cold in the game than overall energies. Second, well you answered that yourself.



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you'd go from being hit 5 times to being hit 10 times, an increase of 100%.

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Right. And, these days there is no justification for that extra penalty.

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And again (I can't believe I'm having to say it again) the primary function of a tank is not merely to take damage, it is to manage aggro.

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I know what it`s for but correct me if i`m wrong here but if im managing aggro do they not then attack me? And if they are attacking me am I not taking damage?
So can I aggro someone without taking damage?
Or are they, semantics aside, one and the same thing?

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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]No, you don't, 99.9% of the time.

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Eh?

Max, unyeilding gives you a -5% debuff. It is operational the whole time unyeilding is up. If it`s up you get hit 5% more than if it isn`t up. 100% of the time.

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The cry for the -5% on Unyielding has been going pretty much since they stopped it rooting you. I suspect it will continue for a while yet.

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I actually don`t remember too many complaints until I5 came along. After all, I think qwe could all see its logic. But, after ED, when we had been cut down so dramatically, what on earth does it do for anyone ?

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I know Invulnerability has a harder time against non-S/L mobs, as it's supposed to,

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Spad- exactly why is it supposed to?

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but in all the teams I've played with I really haven't seen anything that suggests they're underpowered relative to the other Tanker Primaries.

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I never played another type of Tank so I can`t comment. BUT if I`m up against, for just one example, COT, then however well i play, I`m just filling in the numbers because I can`t take too much damage and I can`t hit as hard as other damage dealers.

I can tank a bit, with dull health, unstoppable etc, but it`s a minor contribution compared to when I am up against S/L. Don`t take me out of context here. I play fine. But I am aware that in these instances my primary powerset in greatly broken and the purpose of my existance is greatly invalidated, cause I just cant hold onto the same level of aggro.
Like a defender who, every few missions, can only fire off a limited amount of buffs and heals. Except defenders are not put in that position and we are.

What other AT is in that position?

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On the USA boards, the current cry is to drop the -5 debuff on unyeilding. Would that help us? Don`t know but we take 5% more damage than we should and 5% of a lot I guess builds up. Maybe that`s an answer.

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Defense does not work that way.

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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise. Back when we were invulnerable that had a relevence. Now it doesn`t.

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I`m saying, why should my Tank have to face opposition time and again, with my primary virtually crippled when no other AT (that I know of ) has to do the same?


[/ QUOTE ]Take a Dark/ scrapper or /Dark defender against banished pantheon. Or a Mind/ controller, Dark/ defender or /dark corr/MM against nemesis. Or any elec blast/rad blast character against DE crystals (Or any def based character for that matter).

Most sets have a weakness, invul tanks are nothing special.

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Max, the banished pantheon? The Nemesis? These are one off opponents. Even when Tanks were at their best we had those.
Besides, Scrappers don`t have to take damage the way we do.
And the crystals hurt Tanks too.

A Tankers damage is mediocre at best. We cant (generally) AOE. So if we can`t take the damage offered to us then in what way do we match the other team members who are functioning fully?

That`s the point im really making. And yes Ive made it before.

It`s all well and good saying we can be buffed, but any AT (most of whom have higher damage trhan we do) can be buffed too.

So again I ask, in what way are we equal to the other members of the team if we can`t do our proper jobs: ie get into the front lines, stand toe to toe with the toughest bad guys and take the damage? We may perform well. We may contribute. But without our ability to withstand the damage we haven`t got anything going for us.

And these days there are more and more scenarios where that occurs.

On the USA boards, the current cry is to drop the -5 debuff on unyeilding. Would that help us? Don`t know but we take 5% more damage than we should and 5% of a lot I guess builds up. Maybe that`s an answer.

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This seems oddly familiar

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Bloody hell! You a detective in your other life?

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As for Energies & Elements, Invulnerability can get 15%ish DEF and 30%ish RES to them. This is comparable (in a very unscientific manner) to 60%ish RES (That is, taking 40% of the damage hurled at you).

I really don't see the problem.

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How do you get those levels?

I`m only aware of about about 12% resists. I think it`s 10% energy and 12% neg. Am I wrong?

60% resists? Can you let me know how that breaks down? That`s almost the levels we used to have back in the day.

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I don't see the Rikti doing that much in the way of Psi damage. Only a few seem to have psi attacks that I have seen.
Anyway; Psi is always going to be the tanks main enemy, this is not going to change.

For non-S/L damage then a mixture of resistance and defence is needed. And good positioning with Invulnerability can be key.
With good defence and some backup from the team an Inv/ tank can tank for an 8 persion team without too much trouble. (As long as Mother Mayhem isn't in the area)

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I dont believe you can Tank against non S/L in anyway near the way you can against S/L itself. How can you? You`re asking everything in sight to hit you and you`re vulnerable to the damage you take.

I`m not saying that I can`t change tactics to win the day. I can and do.
I`m saying, why should my Tank have to face opposition time and again, with my primary virtually crippled when no other AT (that I know of ) has to do the same?

Don`t forget, this is our primary we're discussing. So taking an invul scrapper as an example, the scenario isnt as painful for him because his primary is fine. (Not to mention he`s not drawing as much firepower his way either.)

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Fire tanks have heavier end use and have less defense vs psionics as they have no +HP power

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I never played a Fire so can`t really comment.

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Only a percentage of rikti have psi damage

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I have only either done the raids or soloed. In solo, I DO get hit hard, though I always win. But if I was being hit by a full mob (as in 8 team) and I was aggroing I`m not sure Ide last long.

I actually dont mind that as such. Psionics was always meant to be the weakness for Invul Tanks.

It`s just that now, with my resists shot to bits, and all the other ways to bring a tank down, it seems that half the time I`m playing to the Tanks potential. The other half I`m not and I think that division is too stark.

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Most scrappers do significantly less damage against a large percentage of the opposition (including Rikti)

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Howso?

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I think tanks are pretty nicely balanced at the minute (other than Granite)

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Well, I don`t but I`m trying to gain support. I take it you arent gonna jump on, which is your perogative.

As a Tanker, I taunt and use guantlet to take the damage and protect the team.
It`s what I do.
My primary is Invulnerability and given it is my primary, it should be dominant to my secondary, damage.

Against S/L it is.

Against everything else it simply isn`t. Particularily now, with the psionic damge of the Rikti, which covers the entire of issue 10.

I am not yet fully IOed (with the sets I mean) but currently cannot withstand 8 team damage for long if the damage is anything other than S/L.

So, in those senarios I don`t always taunt.

I`ve come to the conclusion that it just isn`t balanced that the invul primary is so handicapped throughout an increasing part of the game.

After all, every other set can do their role in a team with 100% of their potential powers fully active.

Imagine, for instance, a scrapper who, against about a third of the opposition, only hit half as hard. Or a defender whos heals were only half as effective as they could be in other circumstances. That`s the scenario we have.

Prior to I5, Tankers main vulnerability was psionics, which was fine because we were pretty much invulnerable to anything else.

Thats not the case anymore, yet we still have our old restrictions , weakness v psionics, -5% debuff on unyielding, heavy endurance usage.

I would like to use this thread to voice our sincere discontent and request that we get looked at and treated as other ATs are.

Is anyone with me here?

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You can't exercise if you're strapped down

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Depends on whos strapped down.

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Lionsbane. . . i hope for your sake this motion does not catch on and that the devs just let this float by on a little rubber dingy. . . or i shall have to set Sally on you. . .

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If the devs acted on this one it would be one of lifes great ironies.

During the nerfs of i4-15 I was a very loud defender of powersets and fought against the global nerfs and Ed.
Mind you there were something like 25,000 posts about that, almost all against it. The devs totally ignored them, to the point of not even posting on the usa boards for days, weeks maybe. So for the devs to act on this... lol.

Having said that I inadvertantly broke one of my cardinal rule with this thread. Never suggest a nerf.

Cause you`re right. This group have proven themselves to be trigger happy in the extreme in the past and you never know what wheels threads like this set in motion....

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LionsBane:

The problem is not that aid self is overpowerd (I dont believe it is) its that you are trying to mix concept with PvP, this is a mistake 99.9% of the time.

Ever tried PvPing a M.A.N build /e Shudders

EDIT: me spelin aint so gud.

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I think you`re partly right.

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Don't ever go up against a triform PB; seriously. You think aid self is annoying? How about shields, 3 heals, a self rez, built in stamina in Nova form; tank form, rather high knockdowm AND fairly good damage?

And to top it all, if things get hairy we also have Light Form (Unstoppable to you tankers).

Not that I'm saying they're PvP gods, they're not. But played right they can be a REALLY irritating opponent.

Oh, and a high level WS is even WORSE!

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Pah! Bring it on i say. Long as you dont have aid self and now it seems Healing flames. Which I am astonished at. I fought several brutes with H/F and they were 50s. They werent easy but they bit dirt.

This guy was a 40 and I just could not deliver the killer punch before he could reheal. The only times I ever had that problem before was aid self.
Maybe it was just a bad day at the office.

At least I can console my self by saying that flaming is not a pool power.