lionsbane_EU

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But what if they want to, or aimed to play as a scrapper, with tank powers, and dont really want to Tank?



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Right. lots of people sign on to the game because they want to emulate they're superhero favorite. Not because they necessarily want to fit into our version of what this set should do or that set.

And the truth is, good luck to em. To each their own.

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Don't get me started on the problems with Tanking for new (To game or AT) players, it's a huge problem at the moment and is resulting in a lot of people who are playing their tanks like inept scrankers.

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Well, this could be a growing up problem. Up until Invincibility, Tanking, the ideal way, is frustrating and liable to get you face planted. Not many people I know even take taunt until they feel they can withstand the damage.

Early Tanks are not really set up to do their job description so some players who persevere with the set learn to scrank. So they start their formative levels that way and maybe its a hard habit to break.

Also, a lot of people don't take the set to actually fulfill the job description.
They take it to try to emulate Superman or the quintissential hero. And scranking is probably more in line with that than actual hard core Tanking itself.

So Tanking is always going to have this issue.

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Mistakes happen, deaths and wipes are a part of the game even when playing with good players so dont be to quick to judge a team or a player for one mistake. Now two mistakes thats another thing And after three even i usually do something

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I did the Rikti Tf. in the last mission I see the EBs and the custer of minions and bosses.

Did I do the sensible thing?

Nope, I charged right in- the entire team followed and ta da- team wipe.

3 am, 3 hours of TF and my head just snapped. What can I say?

The team took it well though.

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as a general rule, i try to avoid teams that say they 'need' a tank. if they 'need' a tank, it usually means that they've been having their [censored] handed to them.. normally because they dont have a clue what they're doing.

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I have to say things like this don't generally bother me. I join a team to play for fun. It's not competitive.

There are exceptions where I look at our objective and see what we have and if it's going to be a total kamakazi mission I may think twice.

But for me, I don't ask for a players CV before I team with them.
I just play. If I'm in a really bad team then AFTER the mission I may pull out. Or, i may just regard this team as giving me an added challenge.

For me I don't regard the game as work, something where I or other players have to excel at. I just want to enjoy it.

And, looking at it another way, there are a lot of complaints the game is too easy.

Well, for me willingly being with a less than fully clued in team can add to the personal challenge of the game.

Sometimes I find that the reason the game can be easy is because my team mates are so good, we're so functional, that yes, it's too easy.

Bit like playing for Manchester United or Chelsea rather than Spurs or Man city.

Only, as I say, for me it's not competitive. So I'm not fussed who I find in my team as long as they're not griefers.

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This thread is unpleasant. I dont see carrying on with it as a good idea. I think when you said you'd leave it. That was the right decision but you came back.

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Moth to the flame. But I hear you. Thank's for the support. Over and out.

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so... you wouldn't be able to do this without taunt? strange.. cause i dont even see the tank targetting any mobs until the end of the fight

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Mr. Motivator, that example you just gave did not fit the criteria for a real old time Herd. The type you need taunt for.

1) The numbers were very low, maybe 10 or 20% of a true herd. That meant they were within the range of AOE aggro management.
It also meant that once aggroed, the duration hadn't dropped. Whereas, running around a field, collecting a true herd,(without pre I5 taunt) would have taken much longer and the duration would have become a factor.
A real herd was about 3 or 4 times wider. And the out section of the mob that was still aggroed, would end up out of AoE range and would start to wander when the aggro duration dropped.

2) The whole point of herding is to keep an immense amount of villians on you while your team mates take bites at em, without the villians hitting back.

Where in this scene was a single team mate doing that?

If they had, that group would have turned on them and the Tank wouldn't have been able to save the newly inundated hero.

That's because as soon as the other hero attacks, the villians attention will switch to them.
And, without the old fashioned taunt, the Tanker is unlikely to be able to refresh aggro enough to protect his friend.

(Actually I may be wrong in this instance because the numbers are so small but hopefully you get my point.)

There are other points that are contrary to a true old fashioned herd.
But enough now.

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so you taunt each mob at a time?

see... now... the guy in the video earlier herded 15 mobs and was back at his herd point in under 30 seconds without using taunt.. with six slotted taunt for recharge, you'd have it up every three seconds or so.. so you'd be back to your herd point in just over 45 seconds for herding 15 mobs. so... the 'big boys' herd slower than us little fish?

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Sorry mate. Bad example. It's like showing me a footballer dribbling past cardboard dummies and then telling me he can beat 10 men on the trot.

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You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?

You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works

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A very constructive post...Not.

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Shannon, this non entity doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Like I said, I find it eye opening how, compared to the USA boards, there are so many flamers and juveniles that can't put forward a proper arguament so have to tell me how [censored] I must be at Tanking instead.

To be fair, I see the game from a diffferent perspective than a lot of people on this side of the pond so maybe that's why I seem to antagonise them so much.

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ANY tank can solo on invincible without a problem unless they have a gimped build. To improve any aspect of any tank would make the game even easier for them. If there was no challenge the game would have died.

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There were about 15 or so months of game play before I5.
In that time WoW, which took quite a slice from CoH, came out. Since then we`ve had 5 issues of differing content not to mention an entirely new game that must have boosted the figures.
Yet, pro rata, the subs on this game are not as impressive as then.
I would think that tells its own story.

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If tanks could still do what they could prior to I5 then it would be City of Tanks.

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It wasn't City of Tanks then and it wouldn't be city of Tanks now. In fact Tankers were the lowest played AT of the lot. (prior to khelds)


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Nowadays the game is more diverse and team mates actually have a use.

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That's true to an extent but that does't invalidate my request of a passives beef up or a drop of the 55 debuff.
And I'll tell you something about that. You would think the USA boards would have been alight from Defenders and Controllers moaning about their lack of contribution. Rarely, if ever happened. And there is a reason for that. The game lost something when it went "diverse."

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You state why should you have to keep revisiting your main and changing him...well hey thats life..things change. I for one love the IO system it gives more options and longevity to level 50s. If the game remained static it would be pretty dull.

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Don't disagree with that at all. Would just have preferred it if my golden oldie had stopped building after 3 years is all.
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If you want a mature argument then you need to look at yourself. You have demeaned all European players and forum users with jibes about the big boys

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Not at all. I said that because Max kept on insisting nonsense and it was his tone that led me to throw a brick. Much the same as you actually. No one with maturity levels above yours would have thought I was insulting them. And I wasn't.

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(how very mature, sounds like you are back in school).

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Your comment about my "lack of " Tanking was unhelpful, immflammatory and laid out, for me, the levels upon which you think. My reaction was aimed at a specific comment from Max, but yes, the cap probably does fit you moreso than Max actually..

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There are fantastic players on these servers.

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I know that. I play with them.

And I never said Max didn't have game knowledge. I said that to state that taunt is not the reason people cant herd they way they did is nonsense. Even today you can still take out 3 or 4 Tanks, attempt to herd 50 or 60 at a time. But it won't work nearly as well as the old Taunt system because you can't control that sort of aggro now the way you could then.

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You have failed to provide any proof to back up any of your arguments and you have failed to convince most people following this thread that you are actually aware of the role of a tank.

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Badger, I don't think a lot of you. Why? If you had debunked my argument, fine no problem. But you came on and insulted my ability to Tank when all I was doing was stating a case. So I really couln't care less what you think of my Tanking ability.

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Yet you are the one who resorts to the level of personal attacks. If you want people to respect your opinion then give us a reason to.

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I never even heard of you till you posted that I clearly can't Tank. Is that what you mean by personal attack?

I have never ever flamed anyone first.

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Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.

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Sound reasoning, were it not for the fact that with the aggro cap in place, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Taunt can only affect 5 mobs at a time because you can't control aggro for more than 17 mobs.

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Spad the argument didn't relate to that. I was purely stating, as a response to an earlier post that, because of the taunt nerf, you cannot herd ala the old days.

As I said even if every factor of the game was the same except taunt, it couldn't be done because, firstly, to run around aggroing that sort of number and keeping them, even if the other team members were half a map a way, would be time consuming to the point of pointless.
Secondly, unless you were refreshing the map constantly with taunt (pre I5), you cannot MANAGE that sort of aggro.
You'de be forever chasing your tail because of aggro duration.

Thirdly,Your team would be wiped, because you couldn't hold the aggro as soon as the villians were attacked. And, bearing in mind, a true herder brings (brought) along hundereds, the team would be wiped in a minute. And without the old style taunt in place you could never re establish and maintain anything like that kind of aggro in time.

So, my original point that you can't herd pre I5 levels directly because of taunt, stands.

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Your argument doesn't work because none of the other factors that allowed you to herd an entire map are still in place. You can't hold the aggro of more than 17 mobs, your aura can't affect more than 10 mobs, your defences can't deal with vast numbers of mobs, your attacks can't hit more than 6/10/16 mobs and mobs don't stack on top of each other any more.

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As I said, my point was a side issue to all of that.

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I'm also curious as to whom these "big boys" might be. I presume they're part of a cutting remark designed to make the rest of us feel small and inadequate?

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I see why you say that and I apologise. That wasn't my inferrance. Well, maybe in a way it was, but it wasn't aimed at the thoughtful intelligent poster.

In this thread I have been accused of allsorts, simply because I feel invul Tankers are underpowered.

As I stated, the American boards agree with me. Whether the English boards do or not is fair enough. But when I get post after post stating I clearly can't Tank etc it winds me up.

Unfortunately, the kind of low level debate I'ver just encounted made me realise how much more mature and eloquent the USA forums are. That's a general comment, not aimed at you who, till now have questioned me in a thought out, less gung ho way.

People like Death Badger live on these boards and while that mentality is around it will always be dragged down to that kind of infantlie flamy sort of level.

I have more credentials in the game than the vast majority of players on this side of the pond and have been a major Tanker since day one of the USA launch.

Just because I want the current state of Tanking to be more in line with how it was, abiet a scaled doewn version, doesn't entitle people to question my ability to play the game or just have me running in circles with semantic points the way they do.

In Maxes case, had he ever herded ewith the real American herders, he would never have commented that he can Herd as well, without taunt.

And the way he went about it prompted me to launch a remark that maybe came out more condesending than it actually was.

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I don't need to understand how electricity works in order to use it.

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No, but doing so greatly reduces the risk of fatal electrocution.

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I can state now and forever more, the chances of my dying as a result of not knowing how electicity works are pretty slim.

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ED affected every character equally (well almost - powers which only take one time of Enhancement like travel powers suffered slightly worse). If Inv Tankers were affected by ED, do you think its possible that every other AT in the game was also affected?

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It's not ED. It is the combination of ed and I5 that hit us far far harder thsn most ATS, directly and indirectly.

For a start, Invul Tankers never even thought to use the power pools of aid self or tough before that.

That meant we had to divert 3 powers from our previous game play just to play catch up. That's not to mention 75% drop in resists, etc etc etc.

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Also I think you will find with IOs you can now reach greater heights than you could before ED. You just have to slot sensibly.

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I don't think that's possible but when I get there, I'll tell you.

It's a bit of a shame to have a character for about 30 months build him to his max and still find yourself haveing to keep improving him all over again.
I don't mind doing that with newer chars but it irks I have to do it with my main.

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You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?

You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works

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Dear dear friend,

Please don't tell me that if I hit something I'll aggro it. Or that invinc has an aggro AOE.

You'll shatter all my illusions.

You, on the other hand, have no idea what real herding actually was,why everyone wanted Tankers to do it then and why no-one can be bothered to try it now. I mean real herding.

And, as a clue, if you could aggro everything in sight and were as invulnerable as pre I5 levels, herding, without Taunt, could not be accomplished in anything like the levels that prompted this friendly little debate.

As for my Tanking skills, maybe you could teach me?

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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?

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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, I obviously know nothing about the game mechanics, unlikje you, who're a never-mistaking fountain of Co(H/V) knowledge. (As shown by your earlier posts in this thread)

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Who gives a monkeys about game mechanics? I don't need to understand how electricity works in order to use it.

And i don't need to know how game mechanics work in order to see their effect.

But I digress.

To those who don't really understand the difference between todays herding/ taunting and pre I4:

Back then a single taunt would pull almost everything in site. So, for instance, take an AV map and an 8 man team. You see maybe 20 or 30 villians then a bit further another 20 or 30 and so on.

The Tank would jump in the middle of the first mob, one taunt, then run to the second and taunt and then the third... 2 minutes later he would have hundreds of baddies attacking him. The team would then pick them off.

Now how does that differ from todays taunt?
Well, for one thing taunt can only attract 5 at a time rather than 30-40 whatever.
So, you got to get your little avator to guantlet everything separatly and rely on your inherent taunts to do the rest.

So, you pull a group. Problem is, maintaining the taunt. Cause you can only taunt 5 at a time and inherent aggro has limited range and wears off if not coonstantly on the villian.

So even if there wasn't an aggro limit, you couldn't maintain your grip on them.

Even if you could get 100, it`s so wide an area, your aggro wont extend to the outer edges.

And, as soon as your team mates attack, because you can't continuously refresh the taunt to cover everyone, the villians will turn on them. Bad mojo.

Course this has already taken 10 or 15 minutes and you haven`t even begun to cover the map yet.

100 villians in a herd? I doubt it. But even if it's so, that number is paltry.

Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.

Like I said, unless you play with the big boys you don't really know what herding truly was.

I won't bother with this thread again. But you two feel free to talk amongst yourselves.

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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.

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Taunt was reduced from being a "hit as many as you like" power to a 5 mob cap. That did pretty much bugger all to tankers' ability to herd.

What *did* affect herding was the introduction of the 17-mob aggro cap, which operates on a FIFO principle.

I'm curious as to what you think "taunt" actually means, because if you're referring to Taunt the power then I really have no idea what you're talking about.

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Riigghhht

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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?

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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.

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Not denying it. that's why taunt had to be weakened.

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Weakening taunt had nothing to do with it. I could still do it just fine with my tank if it wasn't for the aggro cap. And that tank doesn't even HAVE taunt. Obviously killing would take much longer with the AoE cap on attacks, but the herding itself is only countered by aggro cap, not taunt nerf.

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This is why I commented you can't have ever herded with the big boys, Max. You cannot possibly believe that and know what true herding was.

Why don't you try it with the freakshow. After all, they're S/l in the main. Get someone to buff you if you need to. See how many you can pull.

You have no idea.

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Ok, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but imho invul is fine, even tanked the STF with it. The reason you might be doing bad is that you don't get the point of Dull Pain.

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Sigh. As you're a fellow Power I forgive you.

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Inv/Fire might take twice as long as fire/fire to kill the mobs, but when you have 100+ foes herded together, that's still far to high XP rate.

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Not denying it. that's why taunt had to be weakened. But the point is, if Fire/Fire can do the same as Invul/ Fire only faster then it clearly is more powerful. No?

Actually that should read, "was." This point harks back to the earlier posts talking about pre I5/ED.

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Ofc you care. If you didn't you wouldn't reply.
If you've tried playing an Inv./fire with 2 potent AoE powers, 1 Cone attack and perma Hasten + herding foes into the bunch I wrote about before and using Greater Fire Sword, the kill rate and the health bar pretty much speak their own language.
Please note that I wrote I4!

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Fire primary used to enable you to kill minions just with aoe. And invuls can't. Add that to fire secondary and you have THE most powerful Tank of the lot.

Course it's been nerfed but back prior to I4...

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to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....

edit: no offense

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For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.

But comments like this make me decide to drop this thread.
I'll leave the good fight to my American friends who are far more elequent than I am.

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i did say i wasnt trying to offend you, and also i didnt state that you were a bad tank, i said that you sounded like one because of the complaining, but yeah that probably didnt help. sorry anyway.

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NP.

And I have no idea if I`m one of the best Tankers or not. I was just being facecious.

I`m pretty damn good though.

I appreciate the apology.
Thank you.

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Well, the fire/fire tank IMO wasn't anymore owerpowered than the Inv./fire Tank in regard to I4, pre that we can talk about.

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This is hairsplitting really. Fire/fire was deemed to be the most powerful Tank set because of the fire primaries AoEs. but, quite frankly, I don't care either way.

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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.

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Taunt is not needed for herding, and never was. Aggro auras are there for a reason.

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This is one of those unnecessary replies that I was referring to.

You, clearly, have not herded with the big boys.

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[I remember how fast I lvl'ed my Inv./Fire tank as soon as I reached the midd 20s.

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Fire, especially fire/fire WAS overpowered. It, like Ice on the weaker side of the fence, was the exception rather than the rule.

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Off to a trial zone and herd up huge amounts of foes. With just a little skill one could herd all the followers into one bunch so it seemed they were almost one mob, making it possibile to dmg all with single target attacks.

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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.

Now that taunt has been cut back, you can't re-enact those scenarios. And I think that's good too. But that's regardless of how powerful invulnerable is these days.

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That's a job for the guys over in the USA. They seem to be doing a pretty good job. Problem is, they state their case very eloquently, and have done for years, but the devs don`t listen.

[/ QUOTE ]The devs listened on ice tanks, and they were changed. If invul won't be, that means invul isn't underperforming statistically.

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That is true. But Ice was by far the worst performing Tank right out of the gate.

It really sucked.

Even the devs realised that with the Global nerfs and I5, the set would be all but unplayable.
So I don't think the two things are quite the same.

Even now I`m not suggesting Invuls needs are even close to Ices problems, before the devs finally fixed them.

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I don't see that one changing personally. Or if they do they would more than likely balance it up by reducing Invincibilities defence by 5%.

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Originally, unyeilding meant you were rooted to the spot.
When the devs changed that, in order to maintain the balance of the power they, rightly or wrongly added the 5% debuff. That was back when unstoppable was perma and when Invul tankers were far more powerful than they are now.

So, now that the circumstances upon which the 5% was introduced have changed so dramatically, why do you feel they would have to create a zero operation by swapping one 5% with another?

The point is is that the 5% debuff is outdated and unnecessary and, in view of our current weaker state a handicap rather than a balancing factor.

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They all know the solution but they also know the devs won't implement those solutions. So they constantly look for compromises. At the moment the -5% unyeilding is flavour of the month.

[/ QUOTE ]Just asking to remove that isn't going to work on the devs though. You need to show that invul underperforms compared to other tanker primaries, and that removing the -5% def would bring it in line with the others.

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That's a job for the guys over in the USA. They seem to be doing a pretty good job. Problem is, they state their case very eloquently, and have done for years, but the devs don`t listen.
All I've tried to do is drum up support for the cause. Which I clearly haven't succeeded in doing.