hedgehog_NA

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Everything looks great....except the villain epics. I am so not excited about being a Night Widow or Crab Guy.

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Villains have crabs??? you heard it here first!

I think the problem with vet rewards isnt the actual power of them, just the perception of new players that they are more powerful than they really are.

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Please ban these in all pvp zones.

Thank you.

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Please double the number of these summoned and make them spray internal organs all over the place when they die in pvp. That would be funnier than hell. They would last about 10 sec against the weakest attacks.

Oh, and make them generate double normal agro against npc's.

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only 2 more years togo then before i can grab one of these.......and thats why im not going to care about vet rewards anymore, it's become a "meh" subject to me.

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Did you get off at the wrong bus stop or something? All of us were in the same boat at one time. Most played without the lure of Vet bonuses.

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That isnt the point. Many feel that the length of time they will have to wait will probably be longer than the game continues to exist, or that they are willing to shell out $15 a month for. No sense getting worked up over a reward you will never see. Kinda like purple recipes. Those are for people with the luck flag on their account set to (1). The rest of us ignore them and continue to play like we always have.

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See, I'd want them to add contacts but leave everything else as is.

You would still get your big spawns. I'd get more level 7-15 story arcs. A win-win situation.

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Full agreement here.

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um, he's saying he wants the trial to function properly


if that's 'his way' then I guess that's my way too

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It functions the way it is programmed too. there is not bug. He wants a change of parameters for the trial.If the devs didnt intend for it to be that way they wouldnt have programmed it.

besids, this bug fix would affect about 12 people. They need to fix the toggle bug before they spend time on making people behave the way you think they should. Thats much more likely to lose them subscribers.

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All I want is to honestly win the sewer trial once. Which requires, currently, 4 L36-40 characters and 4 people who are willing to go through three hours of abuse and then NOT click the "I Win" button when they're losing.

I want to play and win this part of the game. I'm not asking you to make it easier or anything... just make it autoexemp.

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You dont need an autoexemp. Just find 3 people that feel as you do. Otherwise its a "mommy! make them play the way I want them to play!!!!!"

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After you try the Sewer Trial a couple times, you'll be out of friends who're willing to try it with you, too.

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So you want to force others to play with you? Your way? that is essentially what you are saying. "if the devs fix this people will have to do it my way".

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All I want is to honestly win the sewer trial once. Which requires, currently, 4 L36-40 characters and 4 people who are willing to go through three hours of abuse and then NOT click the "I Win" button when they're losing.

I want to play and win this part of the game. I'm not asking you to make it easier or anything... just make it autoexemp.

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You dont need an autoexemp. Just find 3 people that feel as you do. Otherwise its a "mommy! make them play the way I want them to play!!!!!"

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The amount of Pool C getting into Players hands could be anywhere from right on to double what was intended. I'm not sure you could say it's 'insufficient' so much as 'disproportionate'.

Then again, without the numbers to look at, there could be a proportionate number of Pool C Recipes red side, and people are just using them rather than marketing them.

All we really know is that people want there to be more (until they get more, then they will complain about the prices dropping).

Looking at TF design, you should go around 4 hours of gameplay between pool C drops. If you are in the market for 1/10 of the items in the pool, then it should take 40 hours worth of TF running, or 10 TFs, to get one of those drops.

Thus, if you run 2 TFs per day, you should go a week or more between drops you actually want, by design. THAT would be 'sufficient', and that's not counting buying them from players who didn't want the thing you wanted.

Is that about the rate you are desiring or experiencing?

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No, I have had a drop rate much lower than that. Attempting to give players an incentive to do tf's an then deciding they are not doing them properly when you wont even clearly state what you want is not a coherent action. If the devs want pool c to be ultra rare, they should say so. This bs of leaving us guessing and then slapping us as "exploiters" is driving players away. The mysterious dev silence may be ego enhancing for them, but is bad business. They need to decide if they want cooperation from us or not. Recipes are labeled rare but are all over the place for 500inf. Others cant be found for any amount of money. They have the same rarity, but arent as common. More and more of the new content is intended to be very rare or elite. This is a bad trend.

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I guess this change, prompted by actions of the loot-chasers, means that the Invention System is not totally ignorable any more. (Never had this problem when TFs awarded just enhancements and badges.)

--NT

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Is it the fault of the loot chasers or those that initiated loot into the game and did not provide an adequate supply of pool c's to cover the demand? Any thing that cuts down on the number of tfs has a direct affect on the number of pool c's. Would they consider adding pool c's as part of another reward? not eliminating them as tf rewards, just adding them some other place.

Making a market and ensuring an insufficient supply of recipes is much worse than having no market at all.

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So, would you rather have the Lady Gray TF or a revamped Positron?

I'd rather have a revamped Positron.

Old, broken content should be fixed or removed, not left out to fester where everyone can see it, no matter how much shiny new stuff is propped up next to it.

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/em raises hand.

At this point I would have to agree.

It gives a VERY bad impression to new players who exprience this. The difference between one end of the game and the other is starting to get glaring.

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Also, the LGTF is not a requirement for an accolade. Posi is. If you want the accolade, you have to go through that POS.

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So, would you rather have the Lady Gray TF or a revamped Positron?

I'd rather have a revamped Positron.

Old, broken content should be fixed or removed, not left out to fester where everyone can see it, no matter how much shiny new stuff is propped up next to it.

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Ohh noes!!! I agree with venture 2 days in a row....

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All for a TF change? Sheesh.

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Its not just 1 change. Its a pattern of behavior.

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My two cents:

Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...



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To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:

8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.

The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.

We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.

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Than give Villains the equivalent of Katie. We have said this multiple times, the ONLY thing that was keeping Villains pool C market alive was the Quick Caps.

You just effectively ruined the Villains pool C market.

Way to go.

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I am not being snarky, but truely want to know. If you can do the cap sf in 30 min or less, why do you need katie? They have the same rewards, but the cap doesnt have 10 av's. What is the difference? I havent done the cap sf(havent found a team) but would like to know.

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My two cents:

Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...



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To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:

8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.

The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.

We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.

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Why don't you make it so that those 7 people don't get the reward because they have not been on the tf/sf long enough? You have that coding in for people who join teams in the middle of a mission, why not employ it for TFs? If a person is not logged in for 6 of the 10 missions (or whatever ratio you want to use) have it not reward them with anything. If someone is forced to log out because of power outages or husband/wife aggro, then they have more to be worrying about than getting a reward for a tf/sf.

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Could you have a counter that trips in say , 4 of the missions? If your toon does not enter those 4 misisons, you get nothing. There is no indication when you trip the counter.

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Lets address your last point 1st. There is no way to get a pool c recipe other than to complete a tf. They are not generated in any other way. Thus, that content is no longer available to casual players.


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It is still available to all players, it's just more troublesome for PuGs. PuGs, are not the same thing as casual players. This content is intended for "casual groups of friends" (Posi's words) who know each other and can rely on each other.

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exploit. Tf''s have been around for how long? and they just decided that this was a horrible exploit that desperately needed fixing? This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.


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I don't have the Dev's numbers, but with this being pushed through as an exploit fix, it sounds like someone gave the order to FIX IT NOW. Perhaps some recent activity uncovered the need? Or perhaps something is happening to TFs in an upcoming update?

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It is already hard enough to get the required 7 playeers to do manti. Onc you have people forming tf's and kicking the "excess" non sg members from the team to make the spawn sizes smaller, it will become near impossible. I predict your will see this form of asshattery within 2 weeks of this going live.


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I am sure that @ssh@ttery will happen. That is the fault of the @ssh@ts, not the Devs.

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The more stupid, reactionary, poorly thought out changes you see like this, the more players this game will lose. I see less of th long term players that I used to see on all the time. BS like this won make it any better. This fix is most likely a way to blow off he promise to actually fix the old tf's.

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I have yet to see an alternate suggestion by any player that is any better. Every suggestion that makes it more difficult to softload is going to be trouble for PuGs by definition; the game can't tell if you are logging off to save a baby or to start another TF with your other account. I do hope tech can be developed to kick offline players from TFs, but players will abuse/exploit that, too.

I am more confident now than ever that the TFs will be redone. The first step in that direction was Ouroboros, IMHO. They can make all the TFs Flashbackable, and the people who will inevitably complain that they preferred the OLD Positron TF can be directed to Ouroboros.

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This change will not cripple me. This change will not make me cry moar and leev. this change has made me more open to look at other games. Currently I play city of heroes, but if changes take the fun out, I will not be averse to looking at other games. I ve been playing a little eq2 and guildwars lately. Other promising games are on the horizon. The devs need to realize they are in business, and pissing off your customers for no obvious reason is not a really good idea. This change is not that large in the great scheme of things, but a lot of little changes can have large consequences.

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This a good change, the only ones complaining about it are the FARMERS, even tho they clam themselves to be "the avg player". LOL

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Epic fail. If you are on a tf that has a player dc'd because of bad weather ot the like, you are affected. Not just farmers.

Was anyone actually exploiting this? Doing the 8 simo tf's? Im just kinda curious what drove this to the top of the priority list. All this disruption to fix a behavior that has been available through out the games existence. Is it an exploit if the behavior was not using a bug, rather, living within the parameters designed by the devs. When did this cease being a playstyle and become a violation?

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Wow, even more gross exaggeration of how much people hate this change. I'll say it again, the people who have generally been posting in this thread do not represent the player base.

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The discussion here seems to have fallen on deaf ears, and there's nothing more frustrating than that feeling for a large number of paying customers.

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You're kidding, right? Of the 750+ posts so far in this thread, the vast majority of them have been by the same small number of people, myself included. This is anything but a "large number of paying customers."

You know what the "large number of paying customers" think? They don't care!

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100 good experiences don't matter if 1 bad experience causes someone to give up on the game.

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So how many good experiences should a company provide before they're willing to give up an unreasonable customer? Have you ever heard of the old saying, "You can't please all of the people all of the time?"

Crap, man, if "someone might leave the game!!!" is your excuse for justifying the game just sitting on the status quo and allowing exploits to continue, I really don't care if you're happy or not. Maybe they shouldn't roll out Issue 12 when it's ready, because if 100 people like it and 1 person hates it and leaves the game as a result, it's not worth it, right?

You folks who state or imply that people are leaving the game because of this really amuse me. Yeah, there's such a mass exodus happening. Oh, wait, that's right, there's not. Everything you folks have said has been totally bogus in my observations. You've said people aren't running task forces, I see that they are. You've said that people are leaving the game, I see that they're not. You've said task forces are failing en masse, I have yet to fail one since they've made the change. You've said that task forces are miserable experiences, I have yet to run across anyone who hasn't enjoyed them. You've said some form of new massive exploit is happening, I haven't seen it.

And my favorite? Now you've said the developers have "deaf ears," yet they've [u]posted[u] [u]repeatedly[u] [u]about[u] [u]it[u] [u]over[u] [u]and[u] [u]over[u] [u]again[u] [u]ad[u] [u]nauseum[u], and they're still tinkering with how exactly it works. Deaf ears, my [censored]. Just because they don't do exactly what YOU want exactly how YOU want it and when YOU demand doesn't mean they're deaf. It just means that they listen to all players and act according to what they think is in the best long-term interest of the game.

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How do you know what a majority of the customers think? Did you take a poll? Tarot cards? disembowel a goat?

Why should a lotg rare be any more rare than a crap of the hunter?

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It does improve the QoL of a casual player over the previous change.

However, it does not improve the ability of the casual player to do TFs in the first place, nor is it intended to. It is an exploit fix. Exploit fixes take priority over QoL. If TFs are played less often as a result, that will be addressed later as necessary (on the other hand, maybe SF/TFs are being played more often than intended as it is).

TFs and SFs are intended for groups of players who know each other, not PuGs. If you can do one with a PuG, that is allowed and encouraged, but not supported. This may be a bad metaphor, but turbocharging your car engine may be allowed and even encouraged by your car manufacturer, but it is not necessarily supported, or considered normal use.

There is plenty of casual team content in the form of Invincible missions, AV missions, ans such, and can always be more.

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Lets address your last point 1st. There is no way to get a pool c recipe other than to complete a tf. They are not generated in any other way. Thus, that content is no longer available to casual players.

exploit. Tf''s have been around for how long? and they just decided that this was a horrible exploit that desperately needed fixing? This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

It is already hard enough to get the required 7 playeers to do manti. Onc you have people forming tf's and kicking the "excess" non sg members from the team to make the spawn sizes smaller, it will become near impossible. I predict your will see this form of asshattery within 2 weeks of this going live.

The more stupid, reactionary, poorly thought out changes you see like this, the more players this game will lose. I see less of th long term players that I used to see on all the time. BS like this won make it any better. This fix is most likely a way to blow off he promise to actually fix the old tf's.

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I've done 500+ TF in my time on CoH and have never been kicked from a TF. I don't think this change will increase my chances of getting kicked. Also, it's not that big a difference from an 8 man spawn to a 6 man spawn.

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How many have you done under this system?

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Before the Intro to Vanguard patch, Freedom was sending some players to Ouroboros 3.

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During the last day of the double xp weekend, Triumph was getting RWZ3, and I was crashing zoning to either Ouroboros or the RWZ.

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Right. Which is precisely why that arc was patched. Notice: the devs didn't remove talk-to-contact mission bonuses from all Ouroboros arcs -- just the problematic arc, the same way they shouldn't make sweeping changes to all Task Forces simply because soft-spawning to Cap SFs and the STF/RSF are having debatably undesirable consequences.

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Accept if dealing with Soft Spawning, it wasnt just the Farming of the Cap TFs that used it. I have to this day not found a Respec team for villians that didnt require everyone to log out before the thorn tree mission to lower the number of vines needed to kill. And i think they even fixed that didnt they? Yet still the general consensus is "Log out and make it easier". And since have had people do the same thing on Positron, Snapse, the hero respec to make less mobs in the find key rooms etc.

Its not just a farming issue it a apain in the [censored] issue as far as im concerned. I used to play with someone that used to run 3 accounts. She would log them all in to start a TF and either log them out or keep one going on follow to farm xp and drops. Those are rewards that others should have been earning, or had better chance of earning if she wasnt running multiple toons cause she could require the soft loading of tough missions to make up for the fact we were really running 2 men short due to her extra bagage.

So im sorry, im for any change that actually gets people wanting to play the game for the fun of a team, rather then the rewards it might earn them. The rewards are nice, dont get me wrong, but if people actually have to get REAL players involved in the team again, and cant inflate there chances to 3/8 of getting the best rewards running useless toons through a TF im all for it.

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So basically you wan the devs o social engineer the game to assist your prefered game play. Thy introduced a lewt system and economy and when th players atempt to live within hat stystem, it is an "exploit" This is just another nerf justified with a promise to "look into" the real problem later. A promise that most likely wont be kept. How long would it have taken them to change the tf's to lower starting numbers as a preliminary step?

Social engineering only works in limited circumstances. Too much and your customers leave for competitors that dont try to force compliance. Champions online looks like it has the potential to improve this game through competition.

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Yet another announcement that basically says nothing. Why do they insist on tormenting us with these useless things?

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Its more fun then tormenting you with useful things?

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I like it, some people hate it, most people fall in between somewhere or just plain don't care (which is perfectly valid, considering how minor the change is).

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The true underrepresented viewpoint on the forums--on pretty much any topic. The people who hear/read about it, say, "Oh. Huh," and then just go on with their lives because they really just don't care enough about it to make a fuss either way.

I'm pretty close to being in the "don't care" category myself. This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. Task forces are an extremely limited part of the game to me. I long ago came to terms with the fact that if I don't choose to play more, that there are certain things in the game that I won't be able to fully participate in. Shadow Shard TF's, for one. Really rare invention sets, for another. I can live with it. There's enough in the game that I can participate in to have kept me well entertained for quite some time now.

So why am I even here in this thread? Well, honestly, it's mostly because most of the time the way people on the forums scream and carry on about every little thing amuses me. I know, it's a weakness, but there it is.

[Edit: No disrespect to Morvani. I understand you have a serious concern, I just don't think it will be as bad as you think it will. I'm thinking more of some other posts.]

But then every now and then the hyperbole starts to get on my nerves. I don't want to overstate my case, and act like this will have no affect at all on a casual player. It will have an affect. It constitutes another barrier to entry to task forces. It will probably make it a little harder for someone with RL issues that make it hard for them to complete a TF without AFK time to get onto a TF team.

A little harder.

It does not mean that if you can't sit at your computer uninterrupted for eight hours at a time, that you'll never be able to do a TF again.

I do hope they lower the team requirements for some of these TF's, though.

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The biggest effect for me will be that while i like doing shard tf's, i will have a hard time finding 7 other people that do.