Ultimo_
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Posts
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Not quite. I'm not concerned with taking a long time to defeat a foe so much as not having the endurance to do it. I've tried slotting like most of my characters (one EndRedx, one Accuracy, three Damage), and I've tried slotting two EndRedx and two Damage, but nothing I do seems to make any difference.
Keep in mind, this was an experiment of sorts. With maximal endurance reduction, I was still running out of endurance in seconds.
Also, I notice I've posted the wrong build. I'll rectify that when I get a chance.
Leo
Power Bolt is the most efficient end/damage of the set. Also, it's the lowest endurance use. Air Superiority was next lowest. That's why I used those. I suppose I should have repeated the experiment with each power to see the results. I'll try that.
I didn't six slot anything because I don't have enough slots.
If I turn off Weave, Tough and Manuevers, I have no defenses. The Rikti would hit me 3/4 of the time and do half my health instead of a third. It's not feasable. That said, I didn't used to have Combat Jumping or Assault. I also don't usually run Tough against foes with no smashing/lethal damage. Force Bolt is less valuable because it misses and uses more endurance than the toggles (being an attack).
Bunny
Did you read the other parts of the experiment, including the one where I fought normally?
Emberly
I do usually slot with damage, but I only have so many slots to go around. If I wasn't willing to listen to advice, I wouldn't have started this thread. You may notice I haven't suggested changing the game, but have asked how to change my character.
Adeon
The build is largely to test a theory, that changing the slotting to favour endurance reduction would still not reduce endurance use enough to be noticable. WHat I may have to do is reselect powers, dropping some of the attacks and adding the slots to specific, more damaging attacks and/or more endurance efficient attacks. Of course, I was ridiculed for doing that on the original build of this character.
My true final goal is little more than to enjoy playing the character. It's not any fun gasping for breath after every foe and/or standing around for several minutes at a time waiting for enough blue to come back that I can fire an attack without detoggling. -
Ok, I know what you're thinking, but this isn't the usual rant. Instead, I've decided to describe a little experiment, and see if anyone can suggest anything to improve the experience of the game, with regard to endurance (I know, there have been suggestions in the past, but this will make it a little easier to read, considering the direction many of those threads went. Try to keep it constructive).
The experiment went like this.
I went into a mission against Rikti. My Defender (build is below) is L41, FF/Nrg. His toggles are: Dispersion Bubble, Tough, Weave, Manuevers, Assault, Combat Jumping, Hover.
With all that running, he's pretty hard to kill.
The character has Stamina, fully slotted, and all his attacks are triple slotted for endurance reduction.
I went into a fight against a single L41 Chief Mesmerist. The experiment was to see if I could defeat him (one on one) without running out of endurance. I did it several ways.
First, I fought him normally. I was able to defeat him using all my powers, but was pretty well out of endurance before he was out of health. It took 6 blues to defeat him.
Second, I fought him using only Power Bolts. They were not using up my endurance, but they were not doing enough damage to overcome his regeneration and damage rate (he was hitting me roughtly 25% of the time, doing around 300 damage - a third of my health - with each attack). If I had unlimited health, I might have defeated him, but it would likely take well over an hour or two.
Third, I fought him using only Air Superiority. The endurance it was using was more than I was recovering, so I would have eventually run out of endurance before defeating him. Of course, he would have defeated me long before that.
It seems to me that being forced to chew through 6+ blues to defeat an even conn boss shows excessive endurance use. Even turning off some of the toggles was unhelpful, because then I lacked the defenses to make use of the endurance benefit.
That leads me to ask, what else can I do? I have Stamina. Everything has had its endurance reduced as much as possible. I don't see what else is left.
Here's the build (sort of, I'm still tinkering in the wake of I19).
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Technaught: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Legacy Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(3), EndRdx-I(3), Acc-I(5), Dmg-I(5)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(7)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), EndRdx-I(9), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(11)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11), EndRdx-I(13), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(15)
Level 8: Hover -- Flight-I(A), DefBuff-I(15), DefBuff-I(17), DefBuff-I(23)
Level 10: Power Blast -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(17), EndRdx-I(19), Acc-I(19), Dmg-I(21)
Level 12: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(21)
Level 16: Boxing -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(23), EndRdx-I(25), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(27)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(27), Heal-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(29), EndMod-I(31)
Level 22: Dispersion Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 24: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(34)
Level 26: Repulsion Bomb -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34), EndRdx-I(34), Acc-I(36), Dsrnt-I(36)
Level 28: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(37)
Level 30: Power Burst -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(37), EndRdx-I(39), Acc-I(39), Dmg-I(39)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(40), DefBuff-I(40), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(42), EndRdx-I(42), Acc-I(42), Dmg-I(43)
Level 38: Sniper Blast -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(43), EndRdx-I(43), Acc-I(45), Dmg-I(45)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(48)
Level 47: Total Focus -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(48), EndRdx-I(48), Acc-I(50), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Force of Nature -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 12: LEGACY BUILD -
Quote:Oooo... what a delicious notion - getting paid to play video games...Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
I managed it on squishies in beta, which means anyone can do it. Given that I almost never run solo at anything other than 0/x1, except on some tanks and scrappers that benefit from larger mobs, and I'm an old guy without twitchy reflexes, who usually plays when he's too tired to anything more constructive, you can't claim I'm an above average player. All it takes is being able to think.
Now, one can't argue with people who did not find it fun. That's pure opinion. I liked it myself, except for the damnable Curse of Weariness. As I said in beta, it did not make the fight harder, it just made it annoying since it meant running away, breaking aggro, and breaking out a book to read while waiting for the overlong duration to end.
Sure, you want to pay me a salary and then I'll be happy to treat it as a job instead of recreation. This elitist snob crap is just as insane as Shubbie's comments.
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I'm all for things being challenging, but I don't think any game mechanic that makes it impossible to fight back is very good. If you're fighting hard and still get beaten it's a lot more fun than if you're held and unable to defend yourself. No one wants to be a spectator. But then, that's me.
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Quote:Which was the point I was making.Originally Posted by ItsJustJake
It's going to cause problems for some people. Sure, you get the Fitness pool for free, but you also get three new powers in other places, and they will likely have an endurance cast .. plus they will need slots, unless you plan wisely ..
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Quote:True enough, you've been arguing rationally as well, apologies for the percieved slight, it was unintentional.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's also more or less what I said, but whatever.
I agree, there is a lot to be said for it, I'm just saying it isn't the universal panacea some are making it out to be. Endurance woes are still my biggest issue with the game (among many others), and I know I'm not alone as threads on the topic have come up many times over the years. As I've said elsewhere, I see this as a bandaid on a broken leg.Quote:So it doesn't benefit YOU. It happens to benefit other people. Apparently, the problems the change was aimed at fixing weren't problems you were having. While I'm sorry to see you won't benefit from this addition, you didn't lose anything, so you have no ground to complain. I didn't complain that I didn't get anything out of the Vigilance changes or when Tankers were given Bruising just because I don't play either AT.
If all of your characters have taken Stamina, all of them have endurance issues and none of them can take powers which can be worked around that, then it's fair to say that this change wasn't aimed at you. You are within your full right to be disappointed, but you don't have a leg to stand on to complain.
As a point of fact, even if the system benefits none of your existing characters, it will still benefit your NEW characters. And contrary to how you present it, having all of fitness Earlier IS a significant improvement. -
Quote:This is true, it's a benefit to lower level characters, and I like this aspect of it.Originally Posted by seebs
Okay. Here's my rational argument:
On my characters who currently don't have fitness pool, I'll have more endurance and health available (because of increased regeneration and recovery), as well as moving a little faster and jumping a little higher. They unequivocally win.
Yes, the added flexibility is a benefit. However, new powers without new endurance means there is potential for endurance issues. This is all I'm saying.Quote:On my characters who currently do have the fitness pool, I get three more powers to pick. Any three powers. They can be situational powers which I tend to only use outside of combat (where endurance is usually a non-issue); that's a pure benefit. They can be powers which I'd use inside of combat. Now, I might not have any more endurance, but frankly, most of my stamina characters are activation-time bound, not endurance bound, already. The limitation is not on how much endurance I have, but how often I can click. Three more powers won't change that, but it gives me more flexibility.
This I can agree withQuote:Maybe in That Other Game, where there exists an optimal "rotation" for many builds, it would be useless to have more powers. In CoH, flexibility is a huge win. It doesn't matter that I might use a power only occasionally; having it as an option makes me overall more effective.
See, a rational, well stated argument. Thanks, Seebs.Quote:So, for instance, my dark/dark defender might pick up Dark Pit. Sure, that's not a very heavily used power, lots of people consider it skippable. But on top of Howling Twilight, it's a pretty solid hunk of stun. Even a single acc/end or acc/end/stun IO in it would make it hit often enough (I have 50% or so inherent accuracy and a base to-hit over 90%) to be awfully useful. ... Occasionally.
But I'm still better off having that option than I would be not having that option. -
Quote:Except I do have a point. Simply saying I don't doesn't make it so.Originally Posted by LISAR
No they said YOU have no point, that's why you are being dismissed.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Sam, heres a hint;
You're trying to go up against one of these;
To save you time and effort
So, you have no point and are just being dismissive?Quote:Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Your point is fatally flawed, we're not missing anything.
I'm not saying there's nothing good in this, I'm just saying there's no real benefit, and potentially more probelms, for higher level characters. If you disagree, fine. All I ask is rational argument. -
Quote:Yes, I could take the slots OUT of the Fitness powers, but that's diminishing the character's abilities relative to what the were. Again, I don't see that as a benefit.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Even more simple: Treat Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina as "stats" you can boost, like Strength, Dexterity, Vitality and Magic were in the old Diablo. You have the stats, and you can choose whether to increase them or not.
Hell, I think they should add stats for more stuff. -
Quote:If that course is taken, it doesn't hurt you. It doesn't benefit you either, though.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which hurts you how?
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Yep, those three powers could be taken. You're saying everyone should take those three powers? My complaint is perfectly valid. Yes, you could stick in placeholders, but all you've done in that case is take Fitness earlier.
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Quote:You guys are missing the point.Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I want more "problems" like inherent stamina.
It's not that Stamina is now going to be inherent that is the problem. It's that it doesn't add any more endurance benefit to characters that already have it, while affording them more powers to use endurance on. It's spreading what little endurance we already had even thinner. -
Quote:How so? If they had Stamina already, they still will. They will instead have three new powers to take the place of the Fitness pool, and no new slots for them nor any new endurance to power them. That represents more problems than benefits, at least to me.Originally Posted by Nethergoat
lol.
please! -
Nifty, some good info there, thanks.
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Well, I've never played the market. I suppose I could do that, but I wanted to play a superhero, not a salesman. I suppose I could rationalize it as playing his secret ID
.
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Well, I think many of you already know what I think of this. However, I'll make this comment for those that don't.
Fitness as an inherent will help low level characters who have had endurance issues in the past, notably Tankers, Scrappers and Defenders (depending on the power sets). It will also make it possible for lower levels to get useful powers that were previously skipped in favour of hurdle or swift and health.
However, it will do NOTHING for characters who have endurance issues at later levels. They already had Stamina, so giving them Stamina earlier and for free does nothing for them. In fact, it will cause MORE problems, as it now will free up power slots, potentially using more endurance than before. Further, it places a premium on enhancement slots, as there will be none available for any new powers.
To summarize, it's great for lower levels, but actually a potential problem for higher levels.
I still say a universal boost to endurance is called for. Of course, I'm not holding my breath. -
Well, the character has only about 300k influence in four years of play, so ultra-high end IOing is likely not going to happen.
I've been told to put recharge in Dull Pain before, but I really don't use it much, so I haven't done that. The slots are needed elsewhere.
I was under the impression that 2 recharge in rage capped its recharge rate. Is this not so?
Hasten is another power in an already tight build, and I never needed it before, so I tend to buck the trend and leave it out. I run out of endurance fast enough as it is.
I'd like to be able to slot Foot Stomp better, but I don't think I'd do recharge. It's an AOE, so uses a lot of endurance. The problem is there's not enough slots! Fitness doesn't use power slots, but uses enhancement slots, so it's left me about 4 slots short for other powers.
I usually do slot KO Blow for Recharge, but as I say, there's not enough slots. I suppose I could steal some from Boxing for use elsewhere...
20 million is pie in the sky. There's no way I'll ever get that much, let alone 100 million...
My appreciation for the thoughts so far and any more that might be offered. -
With Issue 17 coming up and the change to Fitness, I have been tinkering with my Tanker, the Canadian Shield, looking for ways to improve on his performance. Here's a build I've put together. Note that the slots in brawl and sprint represent slots reserved for Health and Stamina.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.81
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Canadian Shield I17: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx(A), ResDam(3), ResDam(3), ResDam(5)
Level 1: Jab -- EndRdx(A), Dmg(7), Dmg(13), Dmg(15)
Level 2: Resist Physical Damage -- ResDam(A), ResDam(5), ResDam(7)
Level 4: Haymaker -- EndRdx(A), Acc(37), Dmg(40), Dmg(40), Dmg(50)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- EndRdx(A), Acc(40), Dmg(42), Dmg(43), Dmg(50)
Level 8: Unyielding -- EndRdx(A), ResDam(9), ResDam(9), ResDam(11)
Level 10: Resist Elements -- ResDam(A), ResDam(11), ResDam(13)
Level 12: Dull Pain -- Heal(A), Heal(43), Heal(43)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight(A), Flight(15)
Level 16: Resist Energies -- ResDam(A), ResDam(17), ResDam(17)
Level 18: Invincibility -- EndRdx(A), ToHit(19), ToHit(19), DefBuff(21), DefBuff(21), DefBuff(23)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- EndRdx(A), Acc(23), Dmg(29), Dmg(34), Dmg(50)
Level 22: Boxing -- EndRdx(A), Dmg(34), Dmg(34), Dmg(37)
Level 24: Tough -- EndRdx(A), ResDam(25), ResDam(25), ResDam(29)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(27), DefBuff(27)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(37)
Level 30: Weave -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(31), DefBuff(31), DefBuff(31)
Level 32: Hand Clap -- Acc(A), Dsrnt(33), Dsrnt(33), Dsrnt(33)
Level 35: Hurl -- EndRdx(A), Dmg(36), Dmg(36), Dmg(36)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Acc(A), Dmg(39), Dmg(39), Dmg(39)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(42), RechRdx(42)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- EndMod(A), EndMod(45), EndMod(45)
Level 47: Laser Beam Eyes -- EndRdx(A), Dmg(48), Dmg(48), Dmg(48)
Level 49: Unstoppable -- RechRdx(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A), Empty(45), Empty(46)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A), Empty(46), Empty(46)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
What are your thoughts on this build? Any suggestions about slotting? That's the area I was having the greatest difficulty with. Any thoughts about IO sets? -
Quote:I agree, damage as a defense is a somewhat dubious defense.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The most important distinction seems to be that the first one seems to work and the second one doesn't, at least for the average player, to a high enough degree to be comparable. That's why the highest damage archetype has had its damage buffed every single time its been revisted and has *also* had its survivability increased nearly every single time its been revisited. And its still unclear if its enough.
Although some defenders have resistances, and some have damage debuffs high enough to actually swing the scale in favor of the defender. If you are a Dark or Rad defender for example, and have the appropriate toggle active, you'll benefit from -37.5% damage, which makes defender health effectively larger than blaster health for the purposes of one-shotting and alpha volleys.
Of course, since neither archetype is explicitly designed to be guaranteed to survive such attacks, this is not really relevant to any significant or game-balance-relevant issue. Its a corner case of a corner case.
The point I'm making is that Defenders do have the potential for some defense (though it's rather limited), but Blaster have the potential for more offense. Each has a pair of power sets. If they're balanced (not a given), then there's no reason their health should be different. -
And Blasters have other attacks to put foes down before they do damage. To me, it's just a different way of defending yourself. Defense by healing, or defense by damage. Each class uses a power to do it, so I don't see it being any different, at least in principle.
However, performance is another matter.
I do understand what's being talked about, thank you. If enemies are able to oneshot a Blaster, they're also likely to be able to oneshot a Defender, since the Defender has less health. -
Quote:Reread what I said. Tanks and possibly Brutes could have more health than others, but there's no real reason everyone else can't be on the same footing. Why does a Defender or Controller have less health than a Blaster? There's no real reason for it.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
Look at your first post. That is what I facepalmed. Why the hell should a controller or blaster or defender or scrapper have the same amount of HP as a tank? Now I'm just waiting for you to somehow sneak in something about end in here.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Look at your combat logs.
A Critical, IIRC, is counting as two "hits" of damage, even though it's one attack. Say you have 1000 HP. NPC's normal attack does 800, crit does 400 (just making numbers up.) From full health, that will kill you - because it's not seen as one "shot."
Similarly, an attack with multiple damage types (the Rikti sword lethal/energy combo, for instance) will count as two "shots" even though it's one attack, and will kill you if the totals are high enough.Say, Shark, you going to facepalm at Bill too? He's saying the EXACT thing I said.Quote:Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
Can I get a big old facepalm for this post please? -
Quote:Just a quick thought, and I haven't read all of the thread, so I apologize if this is off topic now, but I never really saw it as unbalanced that the Defender couldn't bubble himself. I mean, if it's unbalanced for him to have 39% Defense, how is it not unbalanced for the Scrapper to have 69.47% Defense (his own defenses plus the bubbles)?Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, a search should have turned up a number of threads on this, but maybe not with phrasing quite like this. Most of the time, they're calls to make those buffs PBAoE, or other such suggestion.
However, the reason is because they are actually really good buffs, and giving them the ability to self-apply would be fairly game-breaking.
Take a Force Field Defender, for instance. Deflection and Insulation shield both give 15% Defense base, and Dispersion Bubble adds another 10% to that. 25% * 1.56 = 39% Defense to most types of damage. An SR Scrapper, on the other hand, gets only 30.47% Defense to the positional types. However, the scrapper can't also buff up everyone else on the team to those same levels.
If you're a soloer, then yes, these sets aren't that attractive. They're not meant to be. However, on a team, they can become huge.
I'd agree the total is a bit high for unslotted defenses (and clicks too, not toggles), if the Defender was to be made able to buff himself, the power of the bubbles would probably need to be adjusted a bit. -
That's not exactly true. A foe that does multiple instances of damage in one attack can still oneshot you. Energy Blast does Smashing and Energy damage. If the total of the two is more than your total health, you're oneshotted.
In any case, I don't think any foes should have the power to oneshot any heroes. I really don't know why there's a discrepancy in health totals. Tanks, yes (and maybe Brutes). Their defining attribute is resilience. I don't see why everyone else can't have the same health.
I think the suggestion has merit.