Ultimo_
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I'm a strong proponent of the KISS rule. I don't care for the need of going to the Security Chief for everything, though if it was part of a mission, that would be fine.
For instance, you beat up foes and discover a clue that the Security Chief's family is being kidnapped, and you have to go to him to find them. That is, he's part of the mission, he's not just telling you what to do. -
Quote:This is true enough, but as it is, there's NO motivation, one way or the other. There's no positive benfit for particiapting in the raid as they are, though there's no penalty for ignoring them. That's part of why I'm suggesting a change.Originally Posted by UberGuy
[ QUOTE ]
Do not design your events assuming people will participate, and do not design your events with consequences if people don't participate. It doesn't matter how small those consequences are, if they're anything over purely cosmetic, don't even consider it. Don't ruin other people's game to improve your own.
[/ QUOTE ]
I very much agree.
If you want people to participate in an event, the event needs to be compelling; people should want to join it because it's attractive to do so. What you have described is a punitive motivation for people to join - if they do not, it gets worse. This is one of the worst possible ways to motivate your players in any multiplayer context, be it a MMO or a tabletop game with a game master.
In my mind, a punitive motivation is superior to NO motivation. However, as I've said, if you can suggest a more positive motivation, I'm all ears.
Remember, this is a DEFENSE, so there's not something to be gained, there's something to avoid having taken away. That's the nature of Defense. -
Ok, this is much the same as before. The only big difference is the cap of three occupied zones.
Now, if this is STILL unacceptable to you, offer a suggestion. I'm trying to refine this so it would work, so I'm interested in hearing ideas.
Just saying no, you don't like it, isn't going to help me. Saying it intereferes with your play isn't going to help. I'm looking for suggestions, not merely criticism.
By its nature, the raid WILL ipose itself, as it does now. This is unavoidable, it is an invasion, after all. The actual invasion will be an imposition to some degree, but occupation will not significantly affect people in the zone that want to ignore the whole thing. They will still be able to go to contacts, go to missions, or what have you. Only street hunts might be disadvantaged to any deegree, and they might even find themselves at an advantage, as foes they're trying to defeat might have been weakened by Rikti.
Either way, the whole thing would likely be over in a matter of minutes. -
An example:
The sirens go off in Atlas. Three defense points appear, a triage center at the Hospital, a Logistics center at the Police Station, and a bunker at City Hall. Rikti troops enter the zone and begin moving toward the targets. Rikti ships appear in the air and start moving toward the targets.
Heroes assemble to defend the three targets (note that this means not everyone in the zone is in the same place, hopefully reducing lag issues). Being closer to an entrance, the Hospital comes under attack first, before a large enough group of heroes has assembled there, and the triage center is destroyed. The Rikti now have 5 more minutes and 100 more troops to work with.
1) The heroes defend the other two sites, preventing the Rikti from destroying them for 20 minutes (the original 15+5 for the hospital), and the raid ends.
2) The heroes inflict 1100 casualties on the Rikti before the timer expires, and the raid ends.
3) The heroes fail to stop the Rikti and the other two targets are destroyed. The raid then moves to a random adjacent zone, we'll say Steel Canyon, and Atlas becomes "Occupied."
Occupied Atlas spawns three Rikti facilities, a Teleport hub at City Hall, a Barracks at the Police Station and a Conversion Facility at the Hospital. Additionally, Rikti troops will spawn alongside the local thugs, and they will begin to fight (in Atlas, the thugs will likely lose. this is not as certain in other zones). Note that if this had happened in Founders Falls, the Rikti troops would not fight the local rikti mobs.
Heroes can now restore Atlas to normal by destroying the three Rikti targets. As heroes attack, Rikti troops will beam in to defend the targets (this is so the heroes are fighting troops appropriate to the number of heroes there - one hero will face 3-4 Rikti, but if everyone in the zone attacks, you'd get a battle like we see in the current raids).
If the heroes destroy all three targets, the zone returns to normal, though the invasion would continue in Steel. The zone would ALSO return to normal if the invasion in Steel is stopped.
The Rikti capture Steel and it becomes Occupied as well. They move on to the Hollows, and capture that, too. They move on to Skyway (I think it's connected?). There are now three zones occupied by Rikti: Atlas, Steel and the Hollows.
If the invasion is stopped now, the three zones will return to normal, so the signature heroes assemble and stop the invasion in Skyway.
In the extraordinary event that no one takes part in the event (for whatever reason), and this extremity is reached, the whole thing would take a bit over an hour, to an absolute maximum of 100 minutes (25 minutes for each zone). -
Aha, found it. I kind of lost the thread when the forums moved. Anyhow, how's this sound?
The raid would exist in two parts. First, the invasion, second the occupation.
The invasion would function as I already described. When the siren sounds, three defense points appear in the zone, and Rikti will begin spawning at the zone entrances and will start moving toward the defense points in order to destroy them. At the same time, ships will appear in the skies and start dropping bombs, with the same objective.
NOTE that the ships must be substantially weaker. They should be soloable by individual powerful heroes (ie a L6 with hover shouldn't be able to beat one, bu a L40 should). They should be no tougher than EBs, and should move at the speed of unslotted hover. The damage of their weapons should be reversed so the rays do significant endurance drain and minor damage, while the bombs do serious damage.
There would be a time limit on the invasion, and a limit to the number of troops available to the Rikti. If the time limit expires, or they run out of troops, the invasion will end. I suggest 15 minutes and 1000 troops might be appropriate.
If the Rikti destroy a defense point, they will gain back 5 minutes and 100 troops. Thus, even if the heroes defend only one point, the raid would last a maximum of 25 minutes.
If the Rikti destroy all three defense points, the zone becomes occupied, and the invasion will move to an adjacent zone, where it will behave in the same fashion.
If the invasion forces are defeated in any zone, it will end the raid, and return occupied zones to normal.
Occupied zones will function normally with two exceptions. First, three Rikti bunkers will appear in the zone. They will be defended by beaming in troops appropriate to the attackers (not unlike the current raids). If the heroes destroy all three, the zone returns to normal. Second, Rikti troops will spawn in the same locations as regular mobs, who will also spawn there (meaning there would be double spawns at all spawn points). The Rikti would likely attack the local mob, leading to fighting in the streets.
It should be noted that this should not interfere with travel, as mobs would be busy fighting each other, and would leave heroes alone unless they draw attention to themselves.
If three zones become occupied (which would be astonishing, but whatever), then the signature heroes will step in and attack the Rikti bunkers in the occupied zones. Once the Rikti bunkers are destroyed, the zone returns to normal.
Note that restoring an occupied zone will not stop the invasion fleet, but stopping the invasion fleet will return the zones to normal (stopping the raid in its entirety). -
Quote:It doesn't matter who referred to it first (though you may notice it was a thread I posted in), it was still on topic. That's what you aked for. You didn't ask for threads that were on topic AND brilliantly executed.Originally Posted by Luminara
I referred to it before you did, I included it in the total of three out of the supposedly "endless threads" which you insisted are on the forums but which do not exist, and the player's complaint was found to be exaggeration, not an actual problem.
"It doesn't FEEL like it's a lot" is not a valid complaint, argument, point or piece of evidence because it is 100% subjective and can be applied to every power in the game.
Therefore, the thread in question was not being dismissed, it had already been accounted for and proven to be unacceptable.
So, it's debatable solo, but isn't relevant to difficulty when soloing? Again, this is part of the topic.Quote:The usefulness and usability of the inherent is debatable in every situation, teamed or solo, and therefore is not a complaint about the difficulty of soloing defenders but a complaint about the inherent itself.
Again, it was a thread that was on topic, which is what you asked for. How the thread progressed is beside the point, it WAS on topic.Quote:It was because his defender wasn't soloing well, and he also listened to the suggestions and advice and resolved his issues instead of starting another thread with falsified data, wildly exaggerated claims of difficulty and demands for entire powersets or the AT itself to be buffed to tankmage status.
And the thread ended relatively quickly, without the multitude of struggling solo defenders that you claim to exist having shown up.
I will remind you that one person experiencing problems does not equate to the entire player base experiencing problems, or the AT being flawed, or the powersets being poorly designed, and I will also say that this post belies your statements because it proves that the players who are having trouble are asking for, receiving and following advice which alleviates their woes. All of the things you don't do, in other words.
The initial intent of the thread might not have been directly related to the same subject, but the subject did come up.Quote:Not even remotely. That thread was intended to find a way to make defender FF different in some way from controller FF so there would be less "sameness" between the two. That's what the word "differentiate" means. To make different from something similar.
You aren't trying to differentiate defenders from any other AT, you're trying to get defenders buffed so you can play tankmages. Not the same topic, not the same approach, not the same suggestions, not even the same goals.
Five threads, four dismised out of hand even though they were on topic, one that was dismissed even though it did bring the topic up. I don't see any strikes. I provided what you asked for, a sample of threads relating to the same subject as this one. And I specifically didn't include any of my own.Quote:Five threads, only two related to your assertion that there are "endless threads" from players complaining about defenders struggling while playing solo, one of those two debunked before ten posts and the other was a single player asking for and receiving advice, not pitching a hissy and demanding buffs and insisting that defenders are broken in solo play.
Five threads, five strikes, and I still have yet to see your "endless threads".
It's the weekend, I have more time right now. You see, this is exactly the kind of snide commentary I was referring to. How does this relate to anything in the thread? It's merely an attempt to make me look somehow foolish for returning to a thread I said I wasn't going to. In fact, I wouldn't, but that I continue to come under personal attack.Quote:Third time you've said you don't have time for this, third time you've come back and done it anyway.
Guess you're not that busy after all...
...In other words, you're taking your ball and going home again, and you really mean it this time, for at least five minutes
And thanks to halfflat. He/she has shown me the way, so allow me to quote him in closing:
"don't take my lack of response to your posts as conceding a point or agreeing with your argument; rather, I simply can't be bothered debating with someone who is as rude and as juvenile in tone as yourself." -
Quote:In other words, you're just dismissing the thread, nevermind that it WAS on the topic, as I said it was. I never said it was a good thread, it's just on topic.Originally Posted by Luminara
Already addressed this one when I was doing your work for you. Post #9 in that thread reveals the OP to be "pulling an Ultimo".
The usefulness of the inherent is part of the discussion and has come up in this thread too.Quote:This is a thread discussing the usefulness or lack thereof of the inherent, not a thread about the ease or difficulty of soloing a defender. Entirely different topics.
Why do you suppose he's asking for advice? Might it be because his Defender isn't soloing well?Quote:Thread by a player asking for build advice so he can improve his solo performance. I don't see the hordes of suffering players filling that thread that you insist are real.
I agree, this one isn't directly on topic, but the subject came up in it, so I included it.Quote:Current Defender Issues is a collective list of bugs, anomalies and potential problem areas with specific powers, not a thread created by or for defenders who have difficulty soloing.
Trying to use this thread to support your "endless threads" statement isn't even a stretch, it's pure BS.
I see. I suggest tweaks are needed, and I am attacked. He suggests it and it's true? Either way, it's the same topic approached from a different dierction.Quote:You picked an 18 month old thread started by PK, the forum-acknowledged "voice of" and consistent supporter of FF being "great just the way it is", to discuss potential ways to tweak FF specifically to differentiate it from controller /FF, not to get it buffed, and you think that somehow equates to defenders complaining about not being able to solo?
As I say, this is not a comprehensive list. I just did a search of the Defender forums for the terms "balance" "solo" and "weak," and this was what came up. If I took the time to search more thoroughly, I could easily come up with more, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to go on. I only listed them because you demanded it, and instead of recognizing that they are actually threads related to the same subject, you simply dismiss them. I will admit, however, I am somewhat prone to hyperbole for the sake of illustration.Quote:Your list is bogus and your claim of "endless threads" of players complaining about defenders being to difficult to solo is bogus, just the same drama mongering and hyperbole that you've used throughout this thread.
I say, "There have been plenty of threads on this subject."
You say, "No there isn't, show me some."
I say, "Here's some."
You say, "Oh, but those don't count."
This is why I choose not to argue further. You simply dismiss or twist what I say, or failing that, hide behind condesension and derision. I really don't want to go on posting, but that would mean you get to deride me further without rebuttal. Note that neither of us is talking about the topic of the thread anymore, but instead are talking about how we post. For me, this is ample evidence that the thread has run its course. -
Quote:Have the chance increase with more defeated foes. Thus, each foe might increase the chance for one to spill his guts by 5%. That way, the most you would ever have to defeat would be 20 foes.Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Then what do you do about bad luck runs ?
The people who never get 'good rolls' from random merits and the like. Given a low chance the exercise to get to the mission rapidly turns into a grind of low cons, just to get through it.
Given a high chance, then its basically close to a numerical hunt. There is obviously a medium ground there, but unless you have a very narrow distribution, the tail of it will feel very grindy. -
It's similar to the hunt missions except that YOU are in control of it. For example, my Tanker, the Canadian Shield is a WW2 veteran, and his natural foe is the Council. Thus, I could go and pressure the Council, rather than some foe some NPC has an issue with.
Villainside, I'd thought about allowing villains to select an agenda to complete. That is, we're not actually doing anything for ourselves, as villains. Why are we robbing banks? What do we get? What are we trying to accomplish.
I had an idea where you would select an agenda (eg. conquer the world, overthrow Lord Recluse, etc.), and then a method of achieving it (eg. Mind control lasers, giant robots, etc.). You would then have to select missions (similar to radio missions) to accomplish that goal.
As you got closer to the goal, the missions would become more and more difficult, until the final mission, which would be essentially impossible (eg. you might have to fight all of the Freedom Phalanx together).
This fnial mission would always be on a timer. If you can survive to the end, you get a temporary power related to the method you chose (eg. a summon Giant Robot power). Technically you didn't achieve your goal, but you weren't defeated either.
If, by some miracle, you actually DEFEAT the final mission, you would be on the verge of world domination (or whatever), and your plans would fall in on themselves. Defeated, the heroes watch as your giant robots turn on you (for example). Naturally, you can't be allowed to actually conquer the world.
Defeating the final mission would grant you the temp power as above, but would also grant you a temprary toggle, the "ARCH VILLAIN" toggle. It would have a short duration (say, an hour of use), but would buff you to AV levels. Naturally, this power would not work in another agenda mission.
Just the bare bones, but that's what I'd give villains. -
I looked for this, but couldn't find my original post.
It seems to me there's no point in street sweeping. You beat up a couple of bad guys stealing a purse, but it doesn't actually accomplish anything. They respawn in a moment or two. What I'd like to see is a benefit from street sweeping, as follows.
As you defeat street thugs, eventually you will beat some information out of them. This would result in a mission, not unlike radio missions. If you accomplish the mission, and continue assaulting them, you'll get another mission, with an actual serious foe (likely something similar to the ones you see in Safeguard missions). If you keep beating them up, you'll eventually get a mission that will include a signature foe. In each case, the foes involved would be constant (ie if you beat up Council, you'll get Council themed foes).
For example:
Batman goes around, beating up the Joker's thugs until one tells him of a heist at a local jeweller. Batman goes there and stops the heist (normal boss).
He then carries on sweeping the Joker's thugs until he is told that Harley Quinn is going to burn down a building. Batman goes and defeats Quinn (special boss)
He then carries on sweeping, and is finally told where the Joker is hiding out. Batman goes and confronts the Joker (Elite Boss).
Mix in an occasional ambush, and this would liven up street sweeping immensely. No more being muscle for NPCs, we could actually stop criminals on our own!
Personally, I'd replace radio missions with this system, but they're popular and there's no real reason to remove them, so I would use this as an ADDITION to the radio missions.
What say you? -
Oh, for completion, here's a very quick list of some recent threads discussing this subject. There are undoubtedly more, but I no longer care to do more searching.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=136567
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=139836
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=140261
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=124222
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=122420 -
Interestingly, I recently had the same thought. The only thing I'd add is that it would be nice to be able to define the appearance of your sidekick.
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No more walls of text.
I'm done arguing. You twist words, quote out of context and use condescension, sarcasm, insult and derision to argue with, so I'm done being a target for you to stroke your ego to.
I began by stating my position in general terms. I was challenged that I had not provided specifics and numbers, so I discussed specifics and provided numbers. I was then derided for discussing specifics and not generalizing.
OBVIOUSLY there's more than one power that can be used, I BEGAN from that stance. I've changed nothing, I've simply discussed the different issues that arose during the course of the thread. You can quote little chunks out of context and make it seem I've changed my point of view if you like. It's not going to change that point of view.
You're trying to make the numbers mean whatever you want. Healing is HEALING, not Damage Reduction. They're different things, yet you deride me for not calling Healing Damage Reduction.
In any case, as far as I'm concerned, this thread has more than run its course. -
Snow Storm, in my personal experience DOES cause foes to scatter. Perhaps it's a change, since I haven't played my Storm Defender in about a year, but I don't believe so. Every single time I use it on foes, they run around. They do occasionally stop to shoot at me, but in general, it starts them scattering. You can say "no it doesn't" as much as you like, it's not goignto change what I have seen with my own eyes.
The same is true of Lightning Storm. I've seen it send foes flying OFTEN; sometimes farther than other times, but they usually go flying considerable distances. Again, I've SEEN it, so saying "no it doesn't" isn't going to convince me.
I have a life that interferes with doing research and debating on these forums. When I have had a chance to browse the threads to show you some that are discussing the apparent problems with Defenders, I'll post it. I'm not on your schedule, you'll just have to wait.
I wasn't aware that Power Burst was a Force Field power. Someone should tell Mids. I didn't skip it, I delayed it to take further defenses, and I didn't take the team bubbles (since they're useless to me solo, which is the whole point I've been making from the beginning). The strongest attack in my secondary still does less damage than the weakest attack from a LT. I was facing tonight (though, I'll grant it was an AE custom LT.). If you're interested, Mids lists it at around 76 damage, slightly more than the Blaster's WEAKEST attack in the same set, which lists around 60.
I haven't threatened mod action even once in this thread. I was accused of doing so by Talen, and I responded by saying I have reported inappropriate behaviour in the past and woudl do so again. If you feel threatened, it's only because you are pushing the limits of civil discussion.
I've accepted and admitted to mistakes. I'm always ready and willing to do so. However, being called names and told I have no point to make is not acceptable, and is simple browbeating. It's made worse when I notice it's usually the same handful of posters that circle their wagons against any suggestions made. I've never said I was expert in everything, and I am sure Arcanaville has a far superior understanding of the game mechanics. However, I've tried to avoid discussing mechanics for that reason. I've tried to keep things on a conceptual level for the sake of discussion, but people keep demanding numbers saying that I have no point if I can't produce actual numbers. Thus we have a thread that devolves into this kind of pointless bickering.
Those debuffs look like they're all around 20-25%. How am I wrong?
The point of the Tough comment is that you tried to use it to suggest that I wasn't paying attention to the numbers in Mids when I said it provided 23% Resistance (you said 15% in a snide remark). I simply pointed out that slotted, it's 23%, as I said.
I listed all the sets, because I was being challenged repeatedly to provide numbers.
Dominators, Controllers and Masterminds all have superior mitigation and damage. Masterminds also have the health of their pets to bolster their own (via bodyguard).
Vacuum statement? You see, I make a statement of a general principle and you demand numbers or examples. You want me to set up a straw man for you, but I will not.
The Empath will take more damage because he has no defense or resistance. If he is facing a number of foes, or foes that do significant damage on their own, he will take a lot of damage, very quickly, and his regeneration will become moot very quickly.
Try using snipe in the middle of a fight, surrounded by minions. Either way, it's still vastly inferior to similar powers on other ATs. Aim, or similar, is available to all ATs.
Yep, Tesla Cage is a good power for mitigation. That doesn't change the fact that it's practically the ONLY power that provides mitigation to the Emp/Elec Defender.
I play Defenders because I'm basically forced to. I despise the Blaster, playing as the "glass cannon" doesn't appeal to me. I like Tankers. Unfortunately, I can't play a Tanker with blasts, or Storm powers, or Sonic powers, or Force Fields. If I want these things, I have to play a Defender.
The quotes you provide tell the tale. I said I was responding to someone discussing damage, so I mentioned damage in that context. You then say I'm flip flopping because I refer to damage? No, sorry. This thread is going all over, and I will comment as I see fit. My position has always been that the buffing sets need attention, but when others mentioned what they would like to see done, I answered in kind. I made that post specifically to clear up what seems to be confusion about what I would like to see.
I want a more balanced Defender. I want a character that solos AND teams well. In the final analysis, that's ALL I've been trying to get to. I'm not going to go through the entire history of my posts, this nonsense has gone on long enough already.
Foes with ranged attacks deal less damage than in melee, but Defenders have less ability to absorb damage.
I would have been in serious trouble, because while that power was recharging, she would have been using her other attacks too. You do know that the enemies often have more than one attack, don't you? You do realize there's usually more than one enemy?
You know what, I give up. Your snide attitude and insulting comments have finally taken me to my limit. I was going to comment further, but we're just going in circles, and getting more insulting with each lap. -
Quote:I can agree with most of this. It is a complex issue, that's why I've usually suggested small changes.Originally Posted by BurningChick
Ummm ... Ultimo_?
I'm not sure you read my post in its entirety.
You can't offer a fix For the Defender Problem until you understand Defenders, their powers, and how the powers in each set interact with each other, mobs, teammates, and teammates' own powers.
Here's the whacky bit: the interactions are so complicated, it is unclear if anyone, including the devs, understands all those permutations.
That is, in large part, why no one has ever come up with a good defender inherent that is both balanced and useful for all defenders. -
Catwhoorg:
Again, not being a Kinetics user, I didn't know it was that easy to stack Siphon Power. In that regard I stand corrected.
As for the time it takes to defeat foes, yes, sometimes it does take a rather long time. In the case of Rad, it's been over a year since I played my Rad/Rad Defender. As a result, I'm more influenced by the Grav/Rad Controller I've been playing lately. Perhaps it takes longer for the Controller than the Defender?
Burningchick:
The ability to turn your team into gods is useless to you when you don't have a team. All I'm trying to find is a way to improve that situation so it's more balanced.
Garent:
You put the Snow Storm toggle on someone and none of them moved? EVERY SINGLE time I use it, the enemy starts running in all directions.
Panzer, Talen:
Panzer makes claims about me without ever having met me. Saying understanding something is beyond my ability is an attack on ME, not on what I'm saying. It's a personal attack. His post said nothing about my argument, but instead focused on ME. Thus, it's merely an ad hominem argument.
Saying his comments are true does not make them so. Calling me al liar is a personal attack, and an insult besides. There's no "fact" involved, it's simple name-calling and defamation. I have neverdeliberately made a false statement on these forums, or anywhere else, and I take serious umbrage at the suggestion I would do so. You don't know me so don't presume to judge me.
You're free to disagree with me; but you are not free to insult me.
That I don't know what I'm talking about is your opinion. You're wrong, but you're entitled to hold whatever opinion you like. The "proof" you speak of is dubious, as I've rebutted Luminara's comments where appropriate, and agreed where appropriate. When I've been shown to be in error, I readily admit to it. I don't pretend to know EVERYTHING, but I do know something of what I speak, or I wouldn't say anything at all.
I do call your accusations a personal attack, because that's what they are. There's nothing ironic at all about that.
I find it interesting that you snipe at me for commenting in your rep, when others here have done the same to me, and with more vitriol and insults. It's why I turned off reputation, after all. -
Quote:I don't know what we're arguing about, then. I said snow storm scatters foes. That's ALL I said. I've been arguing from the standpoint of soloing, so my comment about AOEing foes solo remains valid. We seem to be arguing different things.Originally Posted by Garent
This proves you didn't understand what you've read. I never said snow storm doesn't cause scatter, Luminara did. And when I said foes could be AoEd to death, I was referring to a team setting because soloing is so easy that it doesn't require snow storm.
As for a snow storm anchor running off and aggroing groups, you know it's possible to turn off toggle powers, right?
Ultimo, I give up on you. I no longer believe you have the ability to understand these concepts. -
Quote:Personal attacks (ad hominem arguments) are weak arguments. You're basically saying nothing.Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I'm surprised you all are still wasting time with this character. It is painfully obvious that Ultimo has essentially zero actual in-game experience with any of the Defender powersets, and is simply making wild assumptions based on looking at powers in Mids'. Outside of his one super gimped FF build, I doubt he has ever actually played any Defenders at all.
Grasping the concept of the Defender AT is clearly beyond his ability, and nothing anyone can say here is going to change that. -
Garent:
Snow Storm DOES cause foes to scatter. Yes, they're not attacking you until they leave the storm, but the ones running the opposite direction of the anchor will be attacking you again soon enough while the anchor runs off to aggro other groups.
Because Defender damage is so low it simply does NOT provide enough time to "AOE foes to death."
Lightning Storm DOES do significant knockback, frequently knocking foes clear out of Hurricane range.
Hurricane is usable outdoors, but it still scatters foes. Controlling where they will be tossed is difficult at best, and the result is foes all around you. Hurricane indoors is MUCH easier to use, especially if you blow them into a corner with Gale first.
Again, I'm referring to soloing, as you say. In fact, most groups I've played my Storm Defender on tell me to turn OFF Hurricane because it scatters things (and they hate Tornado even more!).
Luminara:
I'm not going to address the first part of your post, as it's little more than a personal attack. However, I will make a list of threads where Defender issues are discussed, just for you.
My Force Field Defender didn't skip key powers. It skipped ONE power, Detention Bubble. It has all the other defensive powers, PLUS Tough and Weave. That means it actually has BETTER defenses than other Defenders. He's L29 now, and he has 23% Resistance (S/L) and around 14% Defense (I may have to check the Defense, it could be a little higher, even...). These are not bad numbers, but they're not good. Coupled with lower health and lower damage, and we have a character that solos very poorly.
Others were browbeaten down until they stopped posting. It's a tacktic used frequently here. Unfortunately, I'm far too stubborn to submit to that tactic.
Open Mids. Select TA. Select Acid Arrow. Slot for maximum Defense Debuff. Look at the values. -40.5% Defense debuff, -20% Res debuff (all).
Select Tough. Slot with three Resistance SOs. Look at the values. 23.4% (self).
I didn't think you were stupid, but I'm starting to wonder (see, I can be insulting, too).
Alright, fine. If you're going to constantly refer to Dark and Kinetics, let me provide you with an example.
An Empathy/Electric Defender has Healing Aura and at L26 Regeneration Aura to survive with. He still has less health than anyone else, meaning that if he takes larger amounts of damage, he doesn't have time to regenerate or heal. The reason is that he has low damage (his most powerful attack, not including Thunderous Blast, has only a 115.6 damage value at L50, fully slotted), and can't defeat foes quickly to stop them doing damage. Short Circuit can slow them down some, and Telsa Cage is useful against single targets, but that's the total extent of his mitigation. If he DOES get hit, he has no defenses at all. That's using ALL the primary and secondary powers.
It's as I said before. I could solo using only Brawl. It's a question of whether it's FUN or FAIR.
I try to respond to other posters. If someone is talking about damage boosts, I'll talk damage boosts. My position has never been one that those kinds of sets need help. I stated it clearly, but it might be a different thread (I'm posting in several similar threads...), so let me reiterate.
I THINK Defenders need a small boost to overall damage, on the order of changing the scalar from 0.65 to around 0.70 or 0.75. I think they should have more health, at least on par with Blasters. I think certain sets should have some of their powers adjusted so they can be used by the Defender on himself. An example is Force Fields. Empathy is another.
I also think some sets operate decently, such as Dark and Kinetics. I think some are borderline, like Rad and Storm. For them, the global damage increase and the better health total should be sufficient to make them more competetive.
I said some have defensive tools, and that does imply that others don't. However, I was under the impression that I was discussing with rational people. I didn't expect to have to go into minute detail with every statement. Obviously, I was mistaken. Thus, we have this whole sequence of posts where I have to explain the obvious.
An auto-hit power that strikes a foe resistant to knockback, or a foe that getting up after being knocked back, will often have no effect. Further, as all foes have ranged attacks, if they stay out of the field effects that cause that knockback, they can continue to attack a nearly defenseless Defender. Most minions get knocked around, but only if they choose to enter melee range. Otherwise, only Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb will knock them around. Ranged foes (such as those with shotguns, machine guns, laser rifles and so on) will still be smacking you around because they won't enter the bubbles. Of course, you could run TO them, but sometimes that's not feasable.
Quote:You say this and then hold up Kinetics and Dark as your examples. Pot meet kettle.You take the most extreme corner cases and try to paint them as the most common situations.
You're right, I neglected to slot Arctic fog for Resistance (slotted it for Defense, though). When it is, it goes up to 31.2%, which is better than Tough. Are you now going to tell me that's "good" defense?
Again, I've already said that Dark does fairly well. It's not that 7% Defense that does it, though, it's the -ToHit modifier and the damage debuff. That 7% looks better as a result of the other mitigation. You could take it out and never miss it.
Yesterday I was in a radio mission against Arachnos, and was hit by a Tarantula Queen at range for over 200 damage in one shot. That's almost half my health. If all I had was Regeneration Aura, I'd have been in serious trouble, because I'd be dead before I could take her out, without ever entering melee. As it was, I PFFed, and popped some inspirations (repeatedly) and eventually defeated her. The issue is that no other character I have would have experienced that much trouble because they have either enough damage to defeate her before she defeats them, or enough mitigation to survive long enough to defeat her with their lower damage.
Repulsion Field is 0.78 end/sec (unslotted) and costs more with each foe repelled. Force Bubble is 0.69 E/s (unslotted), and doesn't cost more, but is reportedly rather situational.
Again, I don't know what FUD is supposed to mean.
Did you read what I said? I said because the powers you are using to defend yourself are so endurance intensive, and because your damage is so low, you can't defeat your foes before needing to PFF (because you don't have the endurance to USE Force Bolt or other bouncing powers). When you have no more endurance, your options become RATHER limited, especially when you have no defenses to rely on.
I made this character as an Iron Man homage, yes. I even made a thread to say how it was closer than I'd come before. I did try him as a Blaster. I even tried him as a Tanker. The trouble is that we are now entering a discussion about concept. The Blaster didn't meet the concept, because he had no defenses. The Tanker didn't meet the concept because he had no blasts. The Defender had at least some defenses by L22 (SOs help a lot), and he had blasts. Waiting until Epic pools to get the character you want to play is a LONG time to wait. None of this has anything to do with the subject at hand, however.
Kinetics. Transfusion 0% Damage reduction. Siphon Power -25%. Repel 0%. Siphon Speed 0%. Increase Density 0%. Speed Boost 0%. Inertial Reduction 0%. Transference 0%. Fulcrum Shift -25%.Quote:Until Fulcrum Shift, Kinetics is limited to 25% damage reduction, if it hits.
The heal will miss sometimes. It's not bad, but it's not always reliable.
Repel will not repel foes that are resistant, and will often not affect foes that are in the process fo standing up. Thus it's not always reliable.
I find it interesting that you will attack me when I miss something, and attack me again when I admit to missing something. I correct my errors and admit my mistakes.
I said Kinetics doesn't provide defenses, and it doesn't. It improves OFFENSE, and fairly well, as I've said. No backpedaling, you're just not reading what I say.
Accelerate Metabolism does help endurance issues, and I said so. However, the cost of running the toggles and attacking, even with AM in effect, is still large. I've rarely defeated a spawn of foes with it running before AM wears off (low damage again).
Lingering Radiation has -Speed, -Recharge and -Regen. The -Recharge will slow down enemy attacks some, which helps a little. The real use of this is the -Regen. It's a EB/AV killer, not a damage or defense improver.
EMP Pulse has a 5 minute recharge (base). That makes it occasional, like Nova or Unstoppable. It's not for regular use.
Thunderclap is 60% accuracy, up to 117% with three accuracy SOs. That's still 30% less than a typical blast with similar slotting.
Freezing raid is a good power. I never said it wasn't. I never said it didn't help. I said it spreads foes out, and it does. I've also said Storm fares better than other sets.
Hurricane and Gale DO scatter foes. Gale is better at controlling where they go, but Hurricane often tosses foes off behind you, in front of you, past you, and so on. It didn't do that in the past, but I seem to recall there was a slight change. Foes now can run through the Hurricane more easily (meaning they could get tossed anywhere).
Tornado tosses foes around, an they're not attacking. Further it disorients them, meaning the're not attacking even after the fact. I still use it for these reasons. Teams hate it however, because it scatters foes, and tends to wander into other spawns.
Lightning Storm DOES knock foes back, and often far enough that they are out of range of things like Hurricane, Freezing Rain and so on.
What the bejeezuz do you think this whole thread has been about?Quote:Then you should do something to prevent them from hitting you again.
So, your Trick Shooter has defenses? What trick arrow is it that increases his Defense? His Resistance? I don't pretend to know Trick Arrow anywhere near as well as you, but looking at Mids, I don't see anything providing Defense or Resistance. There are some mitigation tools, such as the Ice Arrow, but I already discussed them. In honesty, I've neither seen nor played a TA character at any significant level, so I can't say much here.
Clouded:
I already went over all those powers.
TurboSki:
PFF is a saving grace. However, it's not going to help you defeat your foes, it's an escape button. The other powers I've already discussed. -
Quote:I'll point out that I never said tankmages aren't overpowered. I said that they couldn't be considered so if EVERYONE was a tankmage. I've also said that this is not necessarily a desirable couse, especially with the game being constructed as it is.
Further to this, we have Ultimo's reputation of talking foolishness. He has claimed that tankmages aren't overpowered. He has claimed that he can run out of endurance just spamming one attack that actually can't run him out of endurance. He has claimed Rad's no good for soloing. And on and on and on. In essence, he either makes statements about the game based on highly flawed memory, or he is a deliberate liar intent on emphasising his own points and his own agendas, which are not made based on analysis or understanding, but on entirely emotive points, which he furthers by bolstering his position with emotional-sounding but factually-incorrect anecdotes that are typically fabricated. In essence, he lies. He also threatens people who comment on this behaviour, as I've found, further evincing that he is not a man given to reason and debate, but to emotion and threat.
I described a character running out of endurance while spamming a single attack, because that's what happened. Again you omit that I pointed out that the character was fighting endurance drainers (I dont' recall now, but I think it was Freaks). Any anecdotes I provide are simply that, anectodes. I've always described them as extreme examples that illlustrate in no uncertain terms what I'm referring to. You call these "fabricated," in essence calling me a liar. It's this kind of personal slur that I threaten with reports. Personal attacks are not allowed, and I will report them. You are notorious for them. I always approach every new thread from a position of respect and courtesy. It' is only after extreme provocation that I step back from that position.
I didn't say Rad is no good for soloing, I said it, like other Defender sets is at a disadvantage relative to most other ATs and power sets. I subsequently providede numbers from Mids in support of this.
Of course I support my agenda, that greater balance be provided for power sets currently at a disadvantage. Are you suggesting that I shouldn't?
I'm all for reason and debate, but every time I come here, and especially when certain members of this community participate in the debates, I find my person under attack. If choosing to defend myself from personal attacks is indicative of "a man given to reason and debate," then I will take that description with pride. -
Quote:You've already made it abundantly clear you will not be convinced. He's made it equally clear HE will not be convinced.Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
No. This is principle. I'm saying that he will actually need to convince me - but I have no intention to simply 'agree to disagree' and move on.
You're refusing to stop arguing unless he convinces you, when you've made it clear he can't, regardless. That's obstinacy. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
When you make blatantly wrong statements like...
Quote:
Storm does too, but only indoors. Other sets, like Rad, Cold, FF, and Sonic don't provide adequate offense OR defense (compared to other ATs)
You lose a lot of creditability right off the bat.
I didn't say anything that was wrong.
Rad doesn't provide adequate offense or defense (it provides a bit of both - what's to be considered adequate is the issue). Cold, FF, Sonic and other sets don't have the tools to provide offense or defense to the Defender. I've already shown this. -
Quote:I don't consider a large porportion of an entire AT to be a "tiny fraction."Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
There is so much of this game that is aggressively soloable, and you guys are here to try and change the tiny fraction that isn't, because you see being 'different' as being 'wrong.' This is why there is resistance. Because you think you can just flat-out add to powersets that already are strong. Because you don't understand the powersets you think are weak. And because those of us with those characters, who aren't obssessed about solo speed, knowing that it's just one point on a large scale, don't want to lose the effectiveness we built for in the name of people who don't even understand what they're talking about getting what they want when their desire is already well-provided for.
There has been much evidence to show that some powersets are NOT strong, that what we want ISN'T already provided for. When this evidence is presented, we are told we don't know what we are talking about and dismissed out of hand. -
Quote:See, this is just obstinacy. He's saying that you can't convince him and he can't convince you. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the relative validity of either argument.Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
If you're hoping we hit a point where we 'agree to disagree,' I'm afraid that I'm philosophically opposed to that. If you can't prove me wrong, and you're saying something I think is wrong, I'll agree to think that you're wrong. I'll even let you walk away if you want to. But 'agree to disagree' is an annoying intellectual aphorism that assumes that both sides of the argument are of equal weight even at their conclusion, and it feels like a disohnest attempt to houdini one's own way out of a losing argument.
As far as protracted periods without change indicates balance, it's a pretty good yardstick. Big problems do get dealt with proportionate to what can be done. Buffs and debuffs have gone almost unchanged aside from the -regen changes in I7.
He was just trying to be polite.
Lack of change doesn't imply balance. It could as easily be that the changes needed would be far too sweeping or damgerous to make without considerable time. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Luminara
So you can't produce a list of those "endless" threads by defenders claiming that they're having horrible experiences with soloing?
I'll remind you once again that I am a frequent poster in this forum, I do read the vast majority of threads in this forum and I do know what the general sentiment is in this forum, and if you can't provide proof that I've sorely mistaken what I've read or missed every one of those "endless" threads, I will continue to call your claims into question.
No, I'm telling you that you're making things up, that you have no idea what you're talking about and that when you do try to back up your statements, you typically do so with deliberately skewed or simply wrong data.
I don't have to attack you and I'm not the one in the weak position here. I don't invent problems and demand solutions, I don't make up numbers to bolster erroneous idealistic beliefs about how I want the game to work and I don't tell other players to go find the proof for themselves when I insist that something's wrong.
Either put up or shut up, it's that simple. Let's see that list of "endless" threads of players saying that defenders complaining about the solo experience.
And they compensate for that lower damage output with higher damage mitigation. That's balance. Safer = lower damage output. Less safe = higher damage output.
Yes, I know, scrappers and brutes don't follow that rule exactly. But take another look, and you'll see that in a way, they do. Ranged sets typically have more and better AoE/cone options than melee sets. So while the scrapper or brute is safer than the blaster, and may be safer than some defenders, they're also more limited in how many foes they can affect at once and they're forced to function in melee range, where they take correspondingly more damage on each successful hit than someone fighting outside of melee range typically has to endure. The ranged ATs deal damage to more foes at a time and they take less damage due to the lower damage output of critter ranged attacks, and they pay for that overall increase in damage output with a small sacrifice in personal safety.
Balance.
Kins can cap their damage.
Kins can cap their damage solo.
Rad has a very powerful Resistance debuff.
TA debuffs Resistance by 40%, and can debuff resistance by 60% if Disruption is double-stacked or 80% if the Achilles' Heel proc is used.
You also missed Dark Miasma's Tar Patch (30% -Res), Cold Domination's Sleet and Heat Loss (30% -Res apiece), Sonic's Sonic Siphon (30% -Res), Storm's Freezing Rain (35% -Res)... and that's not addressing -Def, which is also available in many primaries.
In fact, almost every primary has one or more powers which improve damage output.
Please name which defender primary or primaries cannot use any damage mitigation powers solo. You said "SOME", so you must have a specific powerset or powersets in mind.
Cold Domination has Sleet, which offers the same Knockdown chance that Ice Slick, Oil Slick and similar powers provide, 5% chance every 0.2s. Powers which are proven to be highly effective damage mitigation tools. Sleet is on a 60s recharge with a 30s duration, so it can be used in every fight by a solo Cold/*.
Oh, look more Ultimo numbers.
Tough is 15% Resistance to Smashing and Lethal.
And why are you using some enhanced values and some values without enhancements? Your numbers in your little rantparison are all over the place. Gosh, if I didn't know better, I'd believe you might be deliberately trying to downplay various defender abilities in an attempt to shore up an argument that you lost before you made the original post.
It has a Fear and a Hold. It doesn't have "a couple of Fear-type holds", there's no such thing as "Fear-type" Holds. A Hold is a Hold, a Fear is a Fear, they're different types of control.
The math for hit rolls doesn't work like you seem to think it does. That 7% +Def is added to all of the -ToHit, it's not calculated separately. It's 7% base ON TOP OF the cumulative -ToHit that the Dark/* applies with the other powers in Dark Miasma.
Yes, Ultimo, a Dark/* can cap his/her own defense using only Shadow Fall. Against everything below +3s or AVs.
And that 31% Resistance is applied after the -Damage is calculated, too. So that Dark/* has, solo, the equivalent of 50% resistance to Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Toxic, Special and Unique, and 81% Res to Energy, Negative and Psi.
I don't think any Darks are going to be crying into their drinks over taking a hit or two.
Uh... Twilight Grasp not only heals, it also reduces damage by 12.5%. Doing nothing but keeping Darkest Night active and using Twilight Grasp allows a Dark/* to reduce enemy damage output by 50%, and again, that's discounting the ridiculously good base heal in Twilight Grasp.
And Howling Twilight applies a mag 2 Stun (15s base) and 62.5% -Recharge.
Regen Aura, slotted with three +0 SOs, provides ~975% +Regen. Including the base 100% Regen, this results in a regeneration rate of ~1075%.
That translates to one tick of 5% health regenerated every 1.115s.
Survive 5s and you've recovered 25% of your HP.
Oh, hey, look at that, there's a self-affecting heal available which can be slotted up to ~25%, animates in 2.03s and has a base 8s recharge. That means an Emp/* who has slotted his/her PBAoE heal for Heal and Recharge Reduction can heal him/herself for ~25% every ~6.1s.
Hm... 6.1s with 5% HP regenerated every 1.115s and 25% HP restored by the heal... 6s, over 50% HP recovered. Somehow, I'm not convinced by your claim that Emps can't take a few hits.
Yeah, some critters are resistant to KB/Repel. And sometimes a power misses. And that's not really going to slow down a FF defender the way you think it will, because critters with resistance to KB/Repel aren't common and most players do slot their powers appropriately, such as adding Accuracy to powers with hit checks.
And that FF defender gets something that only one other type of defender gets, protection from Holds and Stuns, in exchange for having lower personal protection than some other primaries.
Play a defender without any status protection, play it to 50 solo, and you'll have some clue just how much of a difference that makes and why it makes FF not just tolerable, but very, very good solo.
And Hold/Stun protection, which is more valuable than you appear to understand.
No defender is in any real danger, regardless of primary, unless he/she is taken out of the fight by a status effect. FF sidesteps that for two of the three most common and debilitating status effects. It does matter. It does make a difference.
50% -Damage, the most powerful AoE heal in the game, auto-hit Repel, the ability to completely drain a target's endurance, 20% -Recharge...
Accelerate Metabolism. Lingering Radiation. EM Pulse.
Sonic Cage. Sonic Repulsion (auto-hit). Liquefy.
Storm can also floor recharge times, has the single best KD patch power in the game (yes, i rate it above OSA, as much as that may surprise some people), has a PBAoE Stun (mag 2) and has a couple of powers which significantly contribute to damage output on their own, without even taking Freezing Rain's -Def and -Res into account. So a Storm doesn't have to scatter foes when playing solo, even if that's the only thing you imagine happening.
Then it's fortunate, isn't it, that TA also has 45% -Recharge, the best AoE Hold in the game, a 66% chance for mag 2 Sleep and a KD patch which is capable of defeating +1 minions by itself.
Defenders do have lower base damage output than blasters. And they do have lower HP. Everything else you've said, even many of the numbers you claim to have quoted directly from Mids, has been wrong.
You missed more than a few, and you understood none of them.
Sigh.
I've already said I'm not going to go searching for threads when my claims have been attested to by other posters IN THIS THREAD.
THIS is dismissive. I've aready said these complaints are not rare, so you simply declare I don't know what I'm talking about and wave your hand. It's not going to make me go away.Quote:Legitimate, realistic complaints about difficulty soloing are rare, and when they do crop up, they're typically because it's a new player who knows nothing about the game, or how to slot/use enhancements.
I didn't invent any problems, they exist. Others noted them before I ever did. Any data I've used has usually come from Mid's, though I have pulled numbers directly from the combat logs, on occasion. If you have an issue with my numbers, I suggest you tell Mids that his numbers are wrong, and inform the devs that the combat log is producing false data.
THIS is what I've been saying over and over, to a chorus of being told I don't know what I'm talking about.Quote:And they compensate for that lower damage output with higher damage mitigation. That's balance. Safer = lower damage output. Less safe = higher damage output.
There are Defenders that have low damage AND low defenses. You can't possibly dispute this, yet for some reason, you continue to try.
Interestingly, you describe how Defenders have the ability to boost their damage, and say I missed so many things, but you don't seem to realize that I have never suggested increasing Defender damage. I didn't mention those powers because they don't provide any kind of defense.
I never said that there were sets that have NO mitigation, only that there are sets that suffer from FAR LESS. A Force Fielder can only use Dispersion Bubble (though the powers that bounce foes around help, when they work). An Empath can use only THREE of his 9 powers for his own benefit. Cold and Sonic suffer similarly. You'll notice these are all BUFF sets, and AS I KEEP SAYING, this is where Defenders need some help.
Tough, fully slotted is 23% so Cold Dom's 20% is less than Tough. You can't compare an unslotted power to a slotted one, so I compared them fully slotted with SOs. These are not "Ultimo numbers," they're from Mids, so I suggest you take it up with him.
7% Defense is negligible, however you choose to spin it. Yes, Dark does better with less Defense because it's coupled with debuff to the foe's accuracy, but 7% is still negligible. I've been told that Defense really only starts to be useful around 20% (though, in fairness, my own experience with it, while limited, has shown that 15% is where you start to notice it's value). And AGAIN, I've already said Dark does fairly well.
Regen Aura does provide a very serious regeneration boost, but you have to live long enough for it to be of any use. When foes are often doing 30-50% of your health with every hit, you're not going to last long even with the aura in effect.
The Force Fielder does have protection against most status effects, that's true, but I've seen PLENTY of foes resistant to knockback. Add to this that knocking them back is VERY endurance intensive, and you have little choice but to PFF after a couple of foes (because you have little ability to take damage).
I will say, however, that I'm playing a Force Fielder because by the time he gets into his Epic Pools and picks up Temp Invulnerability, he's going to have 71% resistance to smashing & lethal, as well as 30ish% Defense to everything! Not small numbers, by any means. He just has to wait a rather long time for them.
Until Fulcrum Shift, Kinetics is limited to 25% damage reduction, if it hits. Same for the heal, it's not always reliable. Same with Repel, it's not always reliable. I didn't realize Transference could drain ALL the endurance from foes, and in an AOE, no less! That is useful, indeed. Again, though, I've said all along that Kinetics, like Dark, seems to perform fairly well.
Accelerate Metabolism is only a 30% regeneration increase. Relatively minor considering the Defender's low health. It's most important use is the recovery buff. I already addressed Lingering Radiation, and EMP Pulse is an occasional use power. It's the equivalent of a Nova, and can't be considered a power for regular use.
Sonic Cage, like other similar powers, is of limited value, but can be useful. The repel in Sonic suffers the same disadvantages (reliablity, endurance cost) as other repels, and Liquefy is another occasional power.
Storm's Thunder Clap is borderline useless. Its accuracy is appalling, and it only affects minions. On the upside, if it DOES hit something, it can be stunned for a very long time.
Freezing rain spreads foes out as the run. Hurricane and Gale scatters them. Snow Storm causes them to scatter (very slowly). Tornado tosses foes around randomly. Lightning Storm has significant knockback and will scatter foes too. Only O2 and Steamy Mist don't scatter foes, and O2 can't even be used by the Defender while the mist provides very limited protection. Since the only other source of protection is Hurricane, Storm Defenders facing scattered foes are at a disadvantage. Indoors, they can't scatter as far, and can be pinned in corners. Outdoors, that's not possible.
Slowing an enemy's attacks isn't going to help you if they're demolishing you in a couple of hits. The Trick shooter is still not going to have any actual defenses and his damage is still going to be low, so he's still going do get killed. The "best AOE hold" you refer to is another Nova-style occasional power. If you're going to start counting these, then Tankers have well over 100% mitiagtion (and we both know that would be misleading).
I didn't miss anything. What you say I missed were powers to boost damage, and I wasn't referring to that. Again, I'm simply quoting the numbers directly from Mids. if you don't believe them, I suggest you complain to him.