The_Solitair

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But basically what you guys are trying to tell me is you can't think of one good way to use a no-end, no-recharge, no-activation time pet stance that grants you 75% full resistance to all damage types on your MM.

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No-end....correct
No-activation time.....incorrect. After quite a bit of testing I've found that there is a 5 second delay between setting pets on follow/defensive and when bodyguard actually takes effect. This means that with the currently STUPID pet AI, it is impossible to tell the pets to return fire (when they should be doing so on their own) and then to put them back into bodyguard for the return fire. Either we stay in bodyguard, and keep ourselves effectively useless, or we come out of bodyguard and allow ourselves to be instakilled. You may not think 5 seconds is much, but in those 5 seconds a hero can 1 shot us (even though 1 shots aren't supposed to be possible anymore) very easily. I have had it happen to me on both thug and bot MMs from tanks, blasters, and scrappers.

If the pet AI were smart enough to return fire when under fire, this wouldn't be a problem, and we'd probably be all happy and giggly about bodyguard. Whats worse, when pets DO finally aggro in bodyguard, they like to chase after the target that aggroed them, regardless of how many times you tell them to follow you....which means they run out of supremacy range, ending bodyguard, and putting you at risk again.....If pets are in bodyguard mode, they should aggro INSTANTLY to any attack on yourself or them, they should return fire with any ranged attacks at their disposal, and if the target is in supremacy range, they should move to attack in melee (assuming they are melee based pets). HOWEVER, they should NOT leave the range of bodyguard unless told to change stances.

Bodyguard has the potential to be a great and useful ability, I won't argue that. The current implementation combined with the totally inadequate pet AI makes it of extremely questionable use....if not totally useless.

Whats more, any time you'd like to meet on test to actually see the liabilities first hand, I'll be happy to meet with you, RL schedule allowing.

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I retract my statement about you not knowing how to play a Master Mind. But I do say you adapt horribly to change and do not work well with you have at your disposal.

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Until you have tested bodyguard as extensively as I have, I don't think you have any room to criticize how I can adapt to change. I have tested bodyguard now on my primary MM (bots and bubbles) as well as a secondary I've run up on test (thugs dark). I even made several different MMs during the RV event on test, and was equally unimpressed. Bodyguard does a great job of absorbing damage, but you can't afford to change stances to return fire, or you're dead.

Whats more, all it takes is one hero with TP foe, and bodyguard might as well not exist. You get yanked away from the minions, and killed instantly. This could easily be fixed by having all minions port with the MM the same as they do following a TP friend...after all, what other AT has to leave behind their powers when they are TPd? none of them! They have full access to their powers and can defend themselves to the best of their abilities.....while MMs are ripped away and effectively lose all of our attacks AND our resistance (if you want to continue to consider bodyguard a resistance....which I disagree with).

For that matter, MMs need our pets to keep up with us when we use travel powers. Have them fall into a formation around us and lock tightly into that formation while we move, regardless of what the movement power is. That would allow us to move WITH our groups instead of being left behind or leaving our attack powers (and resistances...following your reasoning) behind, and would allow us to pursue targets who run without leaving the pets behind (and losing our attack powers and resistances).

Yes, Bodyguard is a good idea....but the implementation needs more thought, and the pet AI needs a lot more I.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Why is gangwar not worth it?

So, seeing as how you've already been there, disillusion me, so i don't have to deal with being angry that i picked yet another useless power.

*glares at powers tweakers/nerfers*

I'm still mad about that regen thing ya know...

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Gangwar summons 10 thugs that are level-2. Thats not too bad....They hold aggro pretty well, even on boss mobs...Thats not too bad either. The problem comes in when you are fighting a boss with AEs. I went up against a Longbow Warden energy blaster....popped gangwar on him and watched as they surrounded him and began their pummeling....and then BOOM, one AE and they all died. This wouldn't be such a big deal, except that as the gangwar dies, the aggro that each of the thugs in it had gained is transferred to YOU....which means that now all the aggro that the ten of them has built up is on YOUR head....your minions aren't going to be able to pull the boss off of YOU.

In PvP, the same basic problem holds true....bring out gangwar, and a player uses an AE....no more gangwar. They don't have any resistances, so their survivability is next to nothing.

Situationally it has its uses, but over all, there are better choices that can be made for the power slot.

Here are your pennies back, because YOU obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Does bodyguard increase survivablity? Yes, but it does so at the cost of initiative, and the totally inadequate pet AI prevents pets from responding to threats as they are supposed to. On test I repeatedly was attacked while my minions stood around and did nothing. Yes, the attacks actually have to HIT before the pets respond, which is stupid (imagine the secret service never bothering to protect the president until AFTER he was actually hit), but even when I or one of the minions was hit they would VERY VERY RARELY return fire.

If pets are set for bodyguard, they should NOT run off, they should stay in the area of supremacy no matter what. Currently pets run off, and even when you tell them to return, they will often ignore you. I still have problems with other MMs (not even grouped with me) hijacking my pets. Sure, its not a bodyguard flaw, but it goes back to our primary complaint....FIX THE AI FIRST!!!!! I often PvP, and another thing I have seen is that pets will run off to the hero hospital if a hero I've defeated releases to hospital instantly when killed. No matter how many times I tell them to follow me, they continue to the hospital.

Lack of mobility also makes bodyguard of very limited usefulness in PvP. Moving slow enough that pets can keep up is a great way to make yourself a target. Groups don't want to move that slowly for a very good reason. And when a target runs, we are unable to pursue because our damage powers get left behind (and so does bodyguard).

Before you start telling me how stupid I am, or how much I need to learn how to play my AT....I am a 40 bots/bubbles MM and I PvP almost every day. I have 400 rep and I keep it there. Bodyguard will be of extremely limited usefulness in PvP...PERIOD. The fact that teleport foe seperates us from our minions is an instant end run around the ability. I have tested bodyguard with both my bots/bubbles and with a thugs/dark that I've run up to 24 so far. With either build, bodyguard is un-needed in PvE and of such limited usefulness in PvP as to be a joke.

Oh, and as for changing your pets stances at the touch of a button....you do know that there is a 5 second suppression on bodyguard following a stance change, right? Its not a touch of a button....if you have your pets attack aggressive and then tell them to follow defensive (putting them in bodyguard) you don't get the benefit of bodyguard for 5 seconds following the stance change. If we could flip them back and forth, then MAYBE I could agree with you, but that 5 seconds prevents our being able to tell the pets to return fire when they are too stupid to figure it out on their own.....well, sure, it doesn't prevent us from doing it, but if we do, we just lost bodyguard.....so whats the point of the ability?

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Downloaded and applied a patch this morning... and thugs now get super leap right off the bat appearantly. Sweet! That means I don't have to worry about them being unable to follow me, right?

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I am still at work, so can't say for sure, but I suspect that the superleap added for thugs is the same as the superleap that tier1 bots get, which only allows vertical leaps, and no real horizontal movement. This will allow your pets (at least the tier 1s) to get to you quickly after you are TP foed to the top of a building, but it will not let them keep up with you through rapid movement throughout a zone.

I agree, the changes to PFF with regard to MMs are rediculous and totally unnecessary. With all of the disadvantages of using PFF, why is it necessary to add a long reset time as well? If blasters, of all people, can fade in and out of PFF every 7.7 seconds (with 3 recharges) I see no reason why we should have a 2 minute base recharge.

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I'm sorry if you don't like it, but my experiences with mastermind have been very favorable. I'm even thinking of getting the Presence power pool so I can 'tank' with my mastermind.

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Oh, I LOVE mastermind. My bots/bubbles kicks butt and takes names in both PvE and PvP. What I find to be worthless is Bodyguard. I've even played quite a bit with the thug MM on test (thugs dark) and find it to be a very fun MM as well (don't bother getting gangwar btw.....its not worth it).

Bodyguard is what we were talking about. The power does not fix the glaring problems that people have been complaining about. It MIGHT if the minion AI actually worked, but alas....it doesn't.

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Reeks of no huh.

Well, yes I have tested it quite extensively. I really dont want to drag this out much cause im beyond caring anymore about how much MM suck now. Pets die too fast,go out of supreme range too often and have to be kept in defensive mode for this to work. This "constant" 60% assumes all pets are in defensive, handicapping you from the start. Anyway long story short MM are the extreme squishy and body guard doesnt change the fact that they are by far the easiest things to kill next to rikti monkeys. Had the devs given them an actual 60%+ res everyone on both sides would be screaming bloody murder of how unfair that really is.

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Oh man, I'm so sorry. I totally messed up.


I thought I was talking to someone who knew how to play a Mastermind.

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Brass Monkey, from what I have been reading, this poster does know how to play an MM. However, nowhere on your sig does it mention an MM that you play. Is it that perhaps YOU are the one who has no experience....or no REAL experience I should say...with the AT?

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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I don't know if someone broke this down yet I'm too lazy too look for it.

# of Pets : % Damage resisted by Master Mind.
6 pets : 75%
5 Pets : 71.4%
4 Pets : 66.7%
3 Pets : 60%
2 Pets : 50%
1 Pet : 33.3%

For those saying Bodyguard will not change their mode of play, you must make horrible use of what you have at your disposal. I don't know about you guys but I would love it if my arch type received a new ability to grant themselves 75% pure damage resistance at will. So what if you can't attack while doing this? No offense, but if you think this power is meant to be left on for the duration of the battle, maybe you shouldn't be pvping. You see a Katana scrapper run at you and hitting build up, you better hit that bodyguard or you will probably be brought to 1 hp (as per new one-shot nerf). In fact, with that new bodyguard, not only will you not be reduced to 1 hp, you will only receive around 200 dmg tops and thats if they crit.

Think about it. Say a scrapper can land 600 damage on you with Build and crit. If you had bodyguard on with 6 pets out, you will only recieve 150 damage. Each of your pets will receive 75 dmg. Oh noes? I think not.

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Heres a test you can do. Take 2 pieces of paper. Soak them for 30 seconds in warm water. Pick up the paper, using your right index finger and thumb hold them away from your body. Grab a knife, jab at the paper and observe how long it took to cut through it. Now get 4 pieces of paper and do it again.

Result= Although adding 2 more pieces of paper on top of the ones you already had prevented the knife from going through just as fast, it merely slowed it a fraction of a second. Wet paper cannot hide the fact it has no defense against a knife.

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That's the worst analogy I've ever heard. Have you even tested this bodyguard stance? Your post reeks with 'NO'. I suppose an average constant 60%+ resistance to all damage can be compared to wet paper. I guess I need to learn to think outside of the box. I eagerly await a realistic educated response from you.

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Bodyguard is pretty worthless, There, I've said it. I'm a 40 bots/bubbles, and I've tested it in PvP and PvE. In both types of combat, the minions will stand around and NOT respond to attacks (both those that hit as well as those that miss). This forces you to take them off of bodyguard if you want to fight back and defend yourself...reducing your bodyguard contingent, and thus your imaginary resistance to damage. As an MM, my damage is far from being "burst", so if I don't choose to use a large number of my pets (read as All of them, or nearly so) There is no way I can do enough damage to be a threat and will therefore be pummeled to death at the liesure of the hero fighting me. In PvP this means that bodyguard is virtually worthless for me, ESPECIALLY since none of the defenses (I'm a FF secondary) that I place on my bots do any good at all.

In PvE, I never use bodyguard, because I never get aggro. My bots hold aggro, and taken as a whole, they have better defenses and resistances than I do even WITH bodyguard. Why on earth would I reduce my firepower when I am never targeted anyway??? This was never needed for PvE...and it doesn't work for PvP.

People have been saying that Bodyguard grants MMs a huge resistance to damage. If thats what you choose to believe, fine, but don't try to convince me, because I've actually tested it, and I can tell you that the reality is far less than what the description suggests. Perhaps if the pet AI was worth half a darn it would be useful, but currently it is a joke.

The description of the katana scrapper coming to hit me is laughable. I'm NOT going to just stand there and let anybody just hit me. I've got combat jumping for a reason, and there is no way I'm going to just stand still while someone beats on me. That being said, the PETS themselves are virtually immobile. They have no real movement ability, which means that if I want to move with my team, my pets will be left behind. If I want to pursue a target, my pets are left behind. Unfortunately...if the pets are left behind, bodyguard becomes so many worthless letters describing another worthless power in my arsenal.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

(and yes, I PvP on a regular basis, 400 rep, and thats WITHOUT bodyguard. Personally, I'd much rather them take bodyguard back, and let me have the old cycle time on PFF. I don't want to hide in it like a turtle, I want to be able to throw it on and off just like all of the HERO AT's are still able to do.

I had a lot of discussion about this earlier, unfortunately I was basically shouted down by people who just see that something is being done to help MMs and don't really look closely to see if it REALLY helps.

1) The pet AI is incredibly stupid, even more stupid than that for NPCs. FIX IT!!! If I or my pets are shot at, I want my pets in bodyguard mode to fight back. If we have a scrapper attacking us I want them to fight back. I don't care if the attacks miss, my bodyguards better return fire.

2) Bodyguard mode shouldn't depend on defensive stance. Follow I can understand, they can't guard you if they're not there, but anyone with any military experience can testify that you don't have to be defensive to protect a 3rd party. Show me the seal team saving hostages that doesn't fire BEFORE taking fire, or more to the keeping of bodyguard...that doesn't fire before one of the team or the person they're protecting actually takes a hit.

3) Forcefield is horribly broken with regard to bodyguard. Every other secondary set allows either a way to keep your pets alive (heals) or a way to fight back (attacks and controlls). FF is primarily about preventing damage, but damage is transferred from us to the pets directly, bypassing the bubbles. This means that our PRIMARY PURPOSE IN LIFE IS BEING MADE IRRELEVANT. Heroes can kill pets faster by pumping damage into us than by targeting them, since we're easier to hit and have less resistance. Sure, they'd do this anyway, and they do to other secondaries, but FF doesn't have the powers to heal or fight back like the other secondaries do.

4) Pets totally lack movement powers. Bodyguard sounds great, but combat requires mobility, and MMs have zero mobility. We can be mobile, but leave our pets behind, or we can go slow with our pets, becoming a sitting duck, and watching anyone who cares to use hit and run attacks fade away while we are unable to stop them. Our pets don't even have sniper range attacks, so they can't do anything to those hover snipers that like to stay above us and fire with impunity. At least let the minions who are primarily RANGED have a sniper ranged attack!

5) With regard to PFF....CHANGE IT BACK! We have defenders with PFF at twice the effectiveness of our own. We have Controllers with PFF that is over 50% more effective than that of MMs. Both of these have a 15 second base reset on their PFF, which means 7.7 seconds if they slot it with 3 recharge SOs. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. Now we have to contend with Blasters using PFF. Their PFF is just as effective as ours, and they have only a 15second base recharge (same 7.7 seconds if they slot with 3 recharge SOs). Ours is 120 second base recharge!!!! The argument is that PFF combined with bodyguard is too powerful, but thats a load of bull dung! Not only that, but blasters have access to Force of Nature and Temporary Invulnerability as well. They can drop PFF, let rip with 7.7 seconds of devastating damage, and then put it back up, with virtually NO risk. Our damage rate is MUCH MUCH less than that of a blaster, we can't persue when a target runs, due to lack of movement powers for our pets, but we have a TWO MINUTE reset? GIVE ME A BREAK! I dont' see any game breaking benefit to a MM being able to fade in and out of PFF the same way all of the other ATs in the game with the power can.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Another thing aside from the soft numbers they provided.......How are these powers "stronger" then their normal counterparts as stated by Matt Miller in a recent interview? If you ask me all of the power as sub par to anything Ive seen in game ATM.

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We don't agree often, but on this we certainly do. We have been previously told that the patron powers would be MORE powerful than epic powers to make up for the fact that 1) we have to jump through hoops to join up with our patron, and 2) once we have a patron we can never change to another with a respec.

From what I was able to see last night between crashes, the patron powers don't seem to be at all impressive. The reset rates of the powers I looked at were disturbingly slow, and the actual numbers of other powers weren't listed (the resist numbers under mu mastery for MMs for instance).

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I dont really want to turn this into a he said she said, but you can't compare full time, 100 % , superiorities the heros have (Best dam, best buffs, best heals) and compare this to some situational sometimes comparisions of villains. If you read the boards, you will read a damage comparison and yes, a Brute at full fury "Slightly" edges a scrappers full time DPS-However a brute probably spends less than .01% of his time at full fury! personally, I dont think I've ever attained full fury... so generally with good fury management I'm running around at some % (70 to 80) of a scappers anytime damage. Oh yeah-In PVP-its less than tha and scraps dont need to pick fights with NPCs in the battle zones to do that damage either. MMs body guard has never been used, so no one know how it can and will function. One defender on a team is enough to undo the entire strategic advantage of the Stalker (stealth). I'm not saying villains are pathetic, but you dont have to be mining the statistics -just playing on both sides, to know there are substantial issues requiring boosts on the villain side. Bodyuard is a good step for balancing MMs. Better control/dam for doms (or a timed dom bar). Easy fury building for Brutes, to put them on par with tanks/scraps. Be prepared-these villain boosts are coming for sure.

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My suggestion is to not even bothering the discussion with these people. They want to twist words and show slanted statistics to show their point, rather than face the cold hard reality.

"Stalkers are the best stealthers" Yea...so? Doesn't mean much when everyone on the other side has multiply stacked CM, and it will mean less once the scrappers and tanks have access to focused accuracy.

"MMs are the best pet masters" BIG WHOOP. Those pets can't chase down fleeing targets, and they can't keep up with the MM either. Pets deal slow and steady damage, and have no burst potential. In the PvP game, burst damage is where the kills come from. As far as bodyguard...it may prolong lives a little, but it is a FAR FAR CRY from what MMs need to make them viable.

Brutes...yea, brutes do slightly more damage than a scrapper IF they have full fury. Sounds great, but its almost impossible to keep fury up in a PvP environment. Want to go beat up on NPCs to build fury? Fine, be prepared for a hero to jump in and now you're fighting the NPCs AND the hero, with a huge chance of incurring debt.

Lets face it, put together a team...lets say a hockey team, with well rounded generalist players (the villains) and put them up against a team with a couple of hotshot defensemen (defenders) a top notch goalie (tanker) and some serious offense (blaster, controller, and scrapper in the left/right wing and center positions). Who do you think is goin to win? NOT THE GENERALISTS! They may be all around good players, but the specialized skills that are brought into play by the heroes are going to win the day. Realistically thats why some sports professionals get paid the big bucks while others get paid far far less and still are professional players. Another example...lets field a squad of soldiers....good generalist grunts with regular equipment. Against them in a wargame lets place a squad consisting of a of Marine Corps sniper and spotter pair, a 4 man seal team, and round it off with a heavy weapons section and a commander. Lets say both squads consist of people who are fresh out of training and will be given sufficient time to train together prior to the exercise. Who do you think is going to win? Probably not the generalists. They just don't have the training and equipment to compete with the specialists....training and equipment equates to powers in CoX. Now, lets take those two squads....this time we take a squad of grunts with significant combat experience against the same group of specialists fresh out of training. Who is going to win now? Hard to say isn't it? The generalists still don't have the nice equipment the picked squad of specialists have or the same level of training, but they have experience, and we all know that can make a difference.

Unfortuantely, experience can only do so much. Now, take that squad of experienced grunts, and place them in a lopsided wargame that gives the specialists the advantage (such as SC). Half of the map is full of other soldiers the specialists can call on for assistance. Another quarter of the map is full of antagonists that will fight against either squad, and the last quarter of the map is basically empty for the most part. Those experienced soldiers are going to be hard pressed to win...although they still can.

Back to the game:

Whats more, Villains are getting patron powers that they will NOT be able to respec out of, while heroes can respec out of their epic sets at will. We've been told that the patron powers are going to be more powerful than the hero epics to make up for that....however lets take a look at some facts:

1) controllers can take Psionic Mastery, in which you find powers such as Indomitable Will, which will provide status protection and Mind over Body for damage resistance. While some villain sets will provide resistance options, no status protection option is available.

2) Scrappers and Tanks both have access to Focused Accuracy. This is a base +25% accuracy, which is HUGE in PvP. Sure, its endurance heavy, but 6 slotted for end reduction and accuracy it is a HUGE advantage even before you figure in the perception bonus.

3) Blasters have access to Force Mastery. This is a game breaker right here. This set allows Blasters to get PFF (without the 2 minute reset villain PFF has been nerfed with...they have 15 seconds, or 7.7 if they slot it with 3 recharges. That means lower it, run through an attack chain, and raise it for safety). Aside from PFF it also provides repulsion field, temp invulnerability, and force of nature. All of which are going to make it MUCH harder for anyone to hurt blasters, but especially melee ATs (such as stalkers, who seem to be the only AT the heroes really worry about currently).

4) Defenders will all get access to telekenesis and mass hypnosis....so now we have even more to worry about than only certain defenders with storm...all defenders will be able to repel and confuse.


Now, lets see what some of the villain ATs are getting in return.

5) Stalkers - Ooooh, snipe. This could be good! OH WAIT. It is only at HALF the base damage of a blaster snipe. I thought our powers were supposed to be POWERFUL to make up for the fact that we can't respec out of patron powers! No powers to increase stealth. No powers to increase accuracy. Basically NOTHING that helps us build on our current abilities, not the way the epics do for scrappers and tankers.

6) Dominators - HEY! WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE DON'T GET A STATUS PROTECTION POWER!!!!! Yea, thats right. Controllers can get protection, but not dominators.

7) Corruptors - No PFF, Force of Nature, or Temp Invulnerability? Oh yea, this is balanced.

8) MMs- None of the patron powers will help our pets??? No new pet buffs or ANYTHING pet related??? [censored]?

Oh yea...but our powers are going to be "more powerful" to make up for that inability to respec and change patrons. We'll see, but so far, they better be OVERWHELMINGLY powerful to make up for the deficiencies. Personally, Pets just don't impress me.

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Yay another PvP change invading the game. Isn't Cryptic ready to throw out PvP yet? Scrappers win. The game has been a good PvE game but all of the disruption and changes due to some madman's desire to include PvP is WRONG.

Stop this PvP disease today!

Masterminds do NOT need any changes unless they are nerfs. They already stomp through missions on the highest rep levels. So are we adding additional rep levels so they can *really* kick some A?

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Great, another troll who thinks MMs should be nerfed because we can do missions on max difficulty.....so can brutes, so can scrappers, so can stalkers, SO CAN ANY AT ONCE THEY HAVE SOs SLOTTED. Whats more, the other ATs don't have 5 minutes of setup time, or more!

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yeah yeah we all know that's the excuse the devs say all the time, you dont need to repeat it again

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It's not an excuse, it's the design paradigm - IOW, the very GOAL the developers are aiming for.

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Thats the stated goal, and its nice to say, but the way the two different sides are being designed is not leading to the stated goal.

1-1 heroes currently (I say currently because it might change someday) excell in every single area of the game over villains. The best healers are heroes, best damage dealers are heroes, the best damage takers are heroes, the best controllers are heroes, the best buffers/debuffers are heroes.

If heroes excell over villains in every single category of the game, then how can villains SUDDENLY be balanced with heroes in a group environment, if all player skill levels are equal? They can't.

If the members of a villain team are individually less capable of what their purpose is than the members of a hero team, that villain team is NOT going to be balanced against the heroes.

*****Disclaimer**********The following is personal opinion*********

The only thing keeping the heroes in check currently is the fact that villains (for the most part) are better and more skilled players than their hero counterparts. They have to be, because they are playing at a disadvantage to start with. I've played on both hero and villain sides, and playing a hero is stupidly easy.

Now I know that most of the people who play villains also play heroes. What I'm talking about, however, is the pretty clear split between those who MAINLY play heroes and those who MAINLY play villains.

None of this really has anything to do with bodyguard, but it is in responce to your "devs say things don't need to be balanced 1-1 because balance is designed to be group-group."

Currently, whether 1-1 or group-group the game lacks balance. Obviously players are dealing with the fact, because we're still playing both PvP and PvE.

Please, PLEASE, don't use the "you don't need to be balanced 1-1" argument. That doesn't hold true when certain ATs aren't even balanced against other builds within their same AT.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Overall I think Bodyguard will help with MM survivability in PvP. That said, I'd still like to know what they are going to do about the time it takes a middle to high lvl MM to buff all the pets. The 5-10 minutes it takes to buff up all the pets is one of the main discouraging factors of why there are not more MM's in PvP. I think people can live with the deaths if they could return to action at full strength the way all of the other AT's can.

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The buff time is definately a major issue that MMs have with their AT. No other AT has to waste 5-10 minutes (just over 5 in my case because I slotted 3 recharges into my second tier buff) before they can get back into the game. Many groups, especially PvP groups, don't want to take on a MM because they know the MM will die first, and then be unable to rejoin and contribute for an inordinately long amount of time.

Another major issue is the lack of travel powers for pets. Pets should share the MMs travel power. I don't think MMs would mind if the pets couldn't attack while traveling, and had to stick very closely to the MM, as long as they could move WITH us. Let them all huddle in a tight circle when we activate our superleap, superspeed, flight, or teleport, and go with us. Even if they won't attack until the movement power is turned off, it would still be an improvement over what we currently have.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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This doesn't help specifically with /FF, but any chance that Bodyguard will allow MMs to chain-summon pets in the face of damage (but not mezzing)? Is summoning Henchmen Interruptible?

To wit: You are slowly trundling around SC with a full Bodyguard and suddenly an AS hits you from nowhere. Thanks to Bodyguard, your Tier 1 henchmen drop and you survive. Recast Tier 1 henchmen.

You get Placated, henchmen begin to attack the Stalker, but the Stalker sticks around for a second AS. The henchmen drop again, but you survive and recast them while re-placated.

Stalker gets the idea and runs away...

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Stalkers can't AS us in SC since its a faction PvP zone and we're both on the same side...however, lets apply your description to Blappers instead, since they dish out even more damage than stalkers do.

MM turtling around in SC, blapper jumps out of nowhere and pours disgusting amounts of damage into the MM. Lets assume ONLY the level 1 minions die, the level 2 and 3 minions begin fighting back, meanwhile the MM is either sleeping or disoriented (blapper attack, don't forget). Lets further assume the MM has a breakfree and uses it. Now the MM needs to either re-start toggles or replace pets. Assuming the toggles are still resetting for another couple of seconds, he remakes the pets. All this time, what is the blapper doing? Not standing around, I'm sure, he's still attacking. MM is probably dead by now. Assuming he's not, however, because your example has him getting out his second group of tier 1 minions, the blapper comes back and cranks out his alpha volley again. Down go the tier 1 minions again, and if the MM wasn't dead before, he most probably is now. Using your example, I guess we have to assume the MM is eating greens to stay alive....so now he doesn't have any of his tier 1 minions....the answer to your question is NO, he can't make more tier 1 minions, because the power has a 90 second reset.

However, in my experience, a suprise attack from a blapper such as described would kill the MM in the first couple of seconds. Remember, the minions may be sharing damage, but there is still NOTHING to help with status effects, and blapper attacks are (currently anyway) shutting down toggles and sleeping or stunning the target instantly. It stands to be seen how much the toggle dropping is going to be reduced in I7, and personally I'm hopeful that both stalkers and blappers both have theirs greatly reduced (while praying that the detoggling of force bolt remains relatively unchanged of course LoL....and I even have a blapper and a stalker).

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
So Bodyguard provides a bonus to all MMs, but a somewhat smaller bonus to /FF MMs.

So does this leave /FF MMs gimped, or does it bring them in line with other MMs?

And I mean in a team environment, not solo-versus-the-Zone play.

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Does it leave the MM with a FF secondary gimped? Definately. In a 1-1 situation, an MM without FF still has full access to all of the powers in his secondary. They can all be used usefully and to the fullest extent. The FF secondary MM is left with two powers, possibly the most important two, which don't help him at all. Considering that most FF using MMs will have put 3 SOs into each of these for increased defense, and at least 1 SO in them for reduced endurance cost (I went with 2 so I can combat buff without issues), that makes for 2 powers being effectively useless and a total of 8 wasted enhancement slots (10 in my case).

We are nowhere close to being inline with other MM secondaries in a 1-1 environment.

Currently, being an MM in a group doesn't extend your life expectancy over being an MM alone. Heroes target the MM instantly and automatically, ignoring pets and ignoring other villains, because they know the MM is the fastest and easiest kill in the game. This SHOULD change with the addition of bodyguard. Bodyguard should allow us to live long enough for the group healer (hopefully there is one) to keep us and our pets alive.....however we are still gimped compared to the other secondaries because we are less able to keep OURSELVES alive. We will still lack those healing/debuffing/attacking powers that the other MMs have to contribute. We will be able to buff our pets...so what...they won't be targets. We will be able to buff our team, and that will help them, but it still doesn't change the fact that bodyguard is allowing damage to bypass powers that are crucial to our secondary and damage our pets. If we don't have a healer on the team...or if the healer isn't close by devoting his attention to us then our bubbles are still doing us no good.

Even in team situations, combat is mobile and fluid, and MMs simply cannot be. Our pets lack movement powers, so when things become either RUN AWAY, or LETS GET EM, then we have a choice, like all MMs, of staying with our pets, or staying with our group. If we stay with the group our pets will no longer be in supremacy range and we become vulnerable all over again. If we stay with our pets then we fall into all of the same issues of being solo all over again.

If pets were mobile, this issue wouldn't be as bad, because we wouldn't have to get left behind as often, or leave behind our pets. Unfortunately, the primary issues MMs have been pointing out have yet to be addressed.....pet mobility, setup time, pet pathing, a moronically stupid AI, and lack of any reason for a hero to target our pets before attacking us.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
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This isn't JUST about bodyguard, it is about the interaction of bodyguard WITH the FF secondary, and how it bypasses the purpose of the secondary. You seem to refuse to admit that powers in FF are being made worthless in PvP by the implementation of bodyguard. I am not arguing the fact that bodyguard will allow any MM, even FF secondaries, to live longer. I am trying to make the developers, and the rest of you, understand that bodyguard is making key powers in the FF set worthless in PvP situations. No other secondary is having important powers in the set completely negated.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is inaccurate.

Pre-BodyGuard which is currently. In PvP attackers who isolate the MM are ignoring the bubbles too. This is without the benefit of bodyguard keeping you alive just a little bit longer.

If they atttack the MM only dispersion bubble comes into play with or without bodyguard.

Only without bodyguard your minions survive all the way till you die, with bodyguard shared damage might takeout a minion or two before you die.

I do understand your point, your are getting too defensive and it is detracting from your arguements.

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We aren't saying that PvP is fair for us now. We were pleading for some kind of a boost for PvP, primarily something that would encourage heroes to target and kill at least SOME of our pets before going after us. Instead of what we were getting for, we recieved bodyguard. Bodyguard doesn't change the fact that our pets aren't being targeted, and for other MM secondaries that isn't so crippling. For FF secondary, having our pets not be targeted removes the primary purpose of our secondary from the PvP equation. While other secondaries are able to heal/attack/debuff, FF doesn't not have that option. We simply want an implementation of bodyguard that doesn't continue to make key powers in the FF secondary entirely worthless. What good is it to buff your pets with +defense if the pets are NEVER going to be attacked? Nobody is arguing that our pets aren't going to being attacked. We KNOW the pets aren't going to be attacked. It is the fact that the pets won't be attacked that is the problem, because if the pets aren't attacked, we have the most important two powers in FF that become useless in PvP, because they can't be applied to ourselves.

If we are getting defensive, it is because of the constant refusal of some posters to admit that there is a problem. I see post after post after post by people (usually the same people) saying "so what, deal with it." or "its your fault for choosing that secondary" or "pets aren't being attacked now, why should that change?" or any of many similar ignorant comments.

It is hard to have a discussion without being defensive when most of the people posting aren't willing to discuss, and only want to point fingers and accuse.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
I know what Bubbles your talking about and I think your overreacting and just not getting it either. Bodyguard is about the Mastermind, who is the boss, and not the Henchmen. If the bubbles are doing the job of protecting the Henchmen from attacks then they have some extra capacity to absorb damage being directed at the Mastermind that they would not otherwise have. All that damage being directed at the Mastermind is spit into shares and distributed, its like an ablative form of damage resistance, not defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't JUST about bodyguard, it is about the interaction of bodyguard WITH the FF secondary, and how it bypasses the purpose of the secondary. You seem to refuse to admit that powers in FF are being made worthless in PvP by the implementation of bodyguard. I am not arguing the fact that bodyguard will allow any MM, even FF secondaries, to live longer. I am trying to make the developers, and the rest of you, understand that bodyguard is making key powers in the FF set worthless in PvP situations. No other secondary is having important powers in the set completely negated.

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And if the Henchmen are not being attacked at all and only the Mastermind, then what good is bubbling the Henchmen in the first place?

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It does nothing, that is the point. Two very important powers, possibly the two MOST important powers, will be made useless. You just admitted my point, thank you.

[ QUOTE ]
Living Henchmen have no use for Dead Masterminds no matter how well the Henchmen are bubbled.

And your being way to quick to disregard the effectiveness of Interupt Reduction Enhancements in Aid Other and Aid Self.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I recognize the effectiveness of interrupt reduction. However, Aid self and aid other are NOT parts of our secondary, and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind, we can't bubble ourselves!!!! Thats what people who don't have the secondary always seem to forget.

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You mean Personal Forcefield, Dispersion Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Force Bubble DON'T bubble the Mastermind??? Who knew?!

[/ QUOTE ]

You know the bubbles I mean...

Are you really this ignorant or just pretending to be?

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]

Damage bypassing the pets forcefeild defense is a NON-ISSUE if they are not being attacked in the first place! Not only that, but such damage is severly reduced because its only a share of the damage. You, the Mastermind, will be long dead before your Henchmen will while in Bodyguard mode, unless your being hammered by AoE attacks (the bane of the Mastermind's existance) or multiple attackers, in which case your out numbered to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It most definately IS an issue. You are still missing the point. Other secondaries are able to effectively fight back, heal their pets, or both. FF is NOT able to do that. While other secondaries have their damage split with their pets the same way FF does, they have OTHER abilities they are able to use in combat. The problem is that the most important powers of our secondary are being made worthless. No other MM secondary is suffering from anything like this. Our secondary is about DEFENSE but that defense only applies to our minions, not to us. That defense is being ignored. Sure, our minions are not being attacked...why should they be? They can be killed by pumping the damage through the MM instead, and there is NOTHING we can do about it. Other sets can fight back, heal, or both, but not FF secondary.

[ QUOTE ]
Take Aid Other from the Medicene Pool and put and Interupt Reduction Enhancement in it, it helps tremendously in using it, and I should note that Forcefield is not the only Mastermind secondary with out a direct heal power.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't change the problem with our SECONDARY. Also, those heals can be interrupted. If the MM is the focus of attacks, we can't heal using aid other or aid self.

[ QUOTE ]
I should also point out that */Forcefeild is not unique in getting defenses bypassed by Bodyguard directly to the the Henchmen. Shadowfall, Forcefeild Drone, Protector Bot Bubbles, and Manuevers all get bypassed in the same way. In fact, */Forcefield is superior to all this in that it can grant the best defense available to the Mastermind Archtype for the Mastermind, meaning fewer attacks will actually get through to hit the Mastermind and then have damaged shared to the Henchmen in Bodyguard mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure that? Shadowfall still grants its user protection, Forcefield drone still grants its user protection, protector bot bubbles get used on the user and still grant them protection (and thats not a secondary power), Manuevers still grants its user protection. ALL OF THOSE POWERS YOU MENTIONED STILL GRANT SOME PROTECTION FOR THE USER.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I am having some trouble here trying to grasp the concept of why */Forcefeild supposively doesn't work with Bodyguard, especially in PvP. Given the */Forcefield is a mostly defensively based set to begin with, Bodyguard would only compound this defensive capacity, something that would be exceptionally valuable in a PvP enviroment where other players are smart enough to look for and directly target the Mastermind. Also, given the reduced accuracy against other player characters in PvP, I would wonder what it is that */Forcefield mastermind is afraid of at that point, given their ability to really compound their defensive capabilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is damage done to the MM is transferred to the minions directly, bypassing any defenses or resistances they have. The MM has MUCH lower defenses and resistances than his minions because he can't bubble himself.

Tranferring the damage directly so that it bypasses and ignores the bubbles means that the most important part of our secondary becomes useless in PvP. FF doesn't come with heals, debuffs, or other offensive powers. The one thing the secondary is supposed to do it protect...and that protection is being bypassed and ignored.

Keep in mind, we can't bubble ourselves!!!! Thats what people who don't have the secondary always seem to forget.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
I personally think FF masterminds should stop complaining. They chose a passive, and what I think is a rather boring secondary powerset for such a fun primary. The fact that it does not work well with the new bodygaurd feature just underscores that fact. My opinion of course.

Now if they changed the forcefield FX for masterminds to make little leprechauns with golden shields that swirled around your henchies, that would at least give the illusion that it was a cool secondary. Also, just my personal opinion... and a bit of a fantasy of mine. I'm a sucker for leprechauns.

[/ QUOTE ]


So the fact that its a secondary you would not choose means we have no right to voice our concerns? I wish the world could revolve around me the way you seem to think it does you.

How would you, a dark miasma secondary, feel if the developers said your accuracy debuff and heal wouldn't work in any PvP zones? You'd be upset wouldn't you? That is essentially what has been done to FF's two most important powers. Your accuracy debuff and your heal are critical to dark miasma, and without them you and your pets would take FAR more damage. Well, without my bubbles my pets take far more damage as well, the difference is that while bodyguard still allows you to heal and use your accuracy debuff, it completely bypasses the protections I place on my minions.

We should stop complaining because we're FF and its our own fault we chose a passive secondary? Thats like telling someone who's car was stolen to stop complaining, its their own fault they have a car. We chose FF because we wanted the defenses. We shouldn't be penalized just because we wanted a defensive secondary.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
yes one time i had my ninja doing the boombox with a lvl 40's ninjas and then all of a sudden...they run off like theres a bomb on the ground oh and they were on def so if there WAS a bomb on the ground shouldn't they like protect me or tell me to run.

[/ QUOTE ]

That goes back to the pet AI. One of the worst things about being an MM is having your pets suddenly decide to go help someone else.


Pet AI, lack of movement powers, and setup time are all things that need serious attention. Bodyguard is a step in the right direction, and could use a closer look, but I'd really rather have the AI, movement power, and setup time issues taken care of ASAP.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
Fair probably not, but PvP is more then telling pets to "Get EM!" and turning on PFF*.

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I am so tired of people implying that FF MMs just use an attack command and hide in PFF. Maybe some people do, but definately not all of us. Personally, the only time PFF goes up is when I am outnumbered, or about to die...and honestly, even then PFF is not the "I LIVE" button that most people seem to think it is.

As for the pets living past the death of the MM and recieving a vengence buff....that would be a possibility IF and ONLY IF pets recieved access to movement powers. Without the ability to effectively follow a target, pets would easily be outrun by a hero who simply turned and fled from them once the MM was defeated.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with putting a ToHit roll into the equation of the Bodyguard ability is the fact that it could reduce the incoming damage to a negligible amount, and with forcefields on the pets, even more so. This might be the same with resistances. So the developers decided not to include these into the equation to keep things balanced. This might still leave Force Field Masteminds feeling like they have little to contribute with their secondaries, but the nature of things hasn't changed and players are still going to try to take down the Mastermind first. Even giving their henchmen a taunt (or the Mastermind a placate) is problematic, simply because as soon as a henchman or two is killed a Mastemind can simply summon more to replace them and then we'd get a never ending (or possibly a one-sided) battle as the Mastermind just resummons his henchmen in battle. You have to look at things from a wider perspective and not just your own personal view when taking things into consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

MIGHT leave FF secondaries feeling as if they have little to contribute? I can put bubbles on all of my team-mates and they love me for it. I can help protect THEM from dying, but I can't help protect myself. I can't help protect my minions either, not against players...because players never attack my minions. FF as a secondary for MMs has gaping holes in PvP currently. Things will get a little better for everyone once bodyguard goes live, but those gaping holes aren't going away. The protections I give my pets keep them alive in PvE, but PvP they are rarely if ever targeted. In PvP >I< am the target, and I can't bubble myself. Sure, bodyguard is going to let me take some of that damage being poured into me and shift it onto my minions, but ALL THE BUFFS ON MY PETS ARE THEN IGNORED!!!! Other MMs can keep their pets alive by healing them, can fight back and hopefully kill the attacker before they lose too many pets from bodyguard's shared damage, but FF can't do either one!

I've given suggestions on what I think would be a fair solution...don't have the damage hit the MM at all. Give the MM a 20% chance per pet that is in supremacy range (or even on bodyguard AND in supremacy range) that a pet will leap in front of the attack, and apply ITS defenses and resistances to the attack. If heroes want to kill the MM fast, they will need to take down several of the smaller minions (or lure them away from the MM...or the MM away from the minions) first. Kill 4 pets, and the MM would only have a 40% chance of a pet leaping in front of an attack and saving him. Target the MM specifically and you deal your damage to a random minion. Target the minion of your choice and you can put him down much faster and more efficiently then move on to the next one. If this is too imbalanced, reduce the percentage chance per minion. Make it a 15% chance per minion the is in bodyguard mode, that gives only a base 90% chance of pets taking hits aimed at you, and would more quickly shift the fight in favor of heroes as they killed your pets. One dead pet....75% chance that a pet will take the hit for you. 2 dead pets, 60% chance, 3 dead 45% chance. This would help prevent the insta kills we are facing now, would allow the healing of pets to still be advantageous, would allow FF MMs to actually gain benefit from bubbling their pets, and would buy time for those MMs with attack powers to use more of them.

Simply shifting damage from the MM directly to pets without allowing any defenses to be figured in completely bypasses the entire strength of the FF seondary. IF we could target and bubble ourselves, that wouldn't be an issue...but we can't.

Telling me to look at things from a wider perspective doesn't help either. I have been making suggestions for how to fix the current inequities against all MMs since before they posted bodyguard and what it would do. I have been pointing out the problems that will be inherent with bodyguard since they posted it. It is a step in the right direction, just not a very well thought out step.


Here is your "wider" perspective.....

Suriyama 40 bots and bubbles MM
Angry Cheerleader 40 em/ninjitsu stalker
Hel's Valkyrie 50 Fire/Rad controller
Solitair 43 BS/regen scrapper
Cinder Rella 38 fire/ice tank
Hel's Valkyrie2 37 warshade