The_Masque

Unforunately, there is no financial reason for them to do anything other than create vanity pets, and costumes. These two things probably have the highest profit/cost ratio for them.

Not saying this how Dio will set it up, but in the past usually you would have everyone sign up on one character.

Teams were randomly drawn each round. So yes you could end up with all damage or all support. Each player had their own wins/losses record and by the end of the 3-5th round the top xxxx players would move to finals.

I've run it where in the finals teams were static, but I think others have run it where you still do random teams.

Yes, some people no matter what will never try PvP. Samuel Tow said pretty much that (I believe).

Those other things will repell some players from trying pvp as well.

What we attempted to do with Boot Camp was to remove as many of those as possible.

It was made clear from the get go, that this was only for learning and having fun, rather than a true competition.

Trash talking was strongly frowned upon, pretty much every PvP event I have ever hosted on Victory has been free of Trash Talk.

Most of the reasons people dislike PvP is their experience with Zone play, that is really unforunate.

HD really you can get around that with incandesence.

DR- thats a hard fix, without looking at mez and inherent resists.

The damage thing- You called it DPA- I will go with that term- That honestly is pretty minor. I think a quick explanation for people entering zone would go a long way with that.

Honestly, ask around I think TS is the #1 hated thing that changed post i13.

As far as the attitudes or griefing nature (was that what you ment by the other thread?) that could be handled with more strict moderation, or removal of broadcast from PvP zones.

Or was there something else in the other thread? I really don't read everything posted, I barely have enough time to read this thread to be honest.
(edit)
Guess I can go read it now....

There was also inherent resists, changes to shields, and minor stuff as well but yes the big three are:

HD/TS/DR- with the two biggest CFs being HD and TS.

The reason I would suggest we keep them apart is that I think its a super easy fix to turn off TS.

Hell, I have personally seen Z do it in warburg.

That would go a long way in making PvP 'fun', since one of the biggest pros about CoX PvP has always been the speed at which it was played.

If we lump it all together and the common mantra that everyone learns is:

I13 I13 I13 I13

And by some miracle we get TS turned off, you will still have people thinking- well thats nice BUT it was i13 that broke PvP only fixing this one small thing doesnt cut it, and they wouldn't even try PvP.

Humor alert:

I really don't see you having an issue with typing/saying things ad naseum.

(smiley face include to indicate joke).

The point is removing TS would go along way in helping to make PvP fun again.

TS is not i13. Saying only by reverting to pre-i13 would PvP be fun again is not the same as saying I really dislike TS.


That is why it is important and honest to say what part of I13 you dislike or want changed. Rather than lumping everything into one big steaming pile.

There are some of us who enjoy PvEing as well, I don't just pvp (well didn't) I enjoyed trying to power game the PvE content as much as possible as well.

There are some PvPers who might actually like your suggestion though, I know its been brought up time and time again that accolades gated behind PvE content is as bad as badges located in PvP zones.

That is unforunately the issue with zone pvp. A few small population of players can cast a huge shadow over an entire group.

I used to zone pvp almost everyday. The one thing I noticed was the "griefers" were usually a few small group of players, and the worst trash talkers by far were actually ostracized by both sides. There was a flying cold/psi dom on Victory that was the classic example of this. The guy would trash talk non-stop. He rarely got a kill, but he would broadcast every kill he saw mocking the hero. He was generally disliked by both sides and no one would team with him or come to his rescue if he was under attack. It wasn't until I actually talked to the guy that I found out a few things. First that it was actually his way of.. idk... I guess RPing as a villain?

The point is, if you were in zone when he was, you would assume that all villains were trash talking jerks, when to be honest, most of the villains in zone were rolling their eyes at his broadcasts as much as the heroes.

Zone pvp is a poor example for what PvP can be. I have rarely seen (but I have) after a team match players mocking each other or being <pancakes>. For the most part its GG or nice fight.

My response wasn't to "Did people leave the game due to i13." it was to "the ALL left because of i13".

Did I lose friends post i13. Yes, specifically, Putz left, Ed left, VV left, W left, r0x left (he only comes back now for badges). The fact that players left due to i13 is not something that is false. What is false is that EVERYONE left because of i13, or that it was i13 alone that killed PvP or left it in the sad state that is it currently.

So what else (in my opinion) caused pvp to wither?

1)Server transfers- Some PvPers moved to freedom, some wanted to say on their home server. Freedom became the mecca of PvP population, while zones in other servers became tumbleweeds and farmers. This certainly did not help to sustain the PvP population, new players who might have tried PvP and ventured into a pvp zone found no one there to pvp with. New players who had questions about PvP found no players on their *home* server to ask questions. I can't tell you how often I asked Putz, Ed, Peril, Doc Boy, r0x, and others and questions about pvp before I even made my first PvP toon. Essentially, the only breeding ground for PvP was Freedom and any PvPers left behind in the max exodus to Freedom had to find new activities to keep them entertained outside of PvP.

2)Lack of support- We have had some great community reps when it comes to promoting or participating in PvP. When Z was participating in Boot Camp on victory he talked about it on almost every single one of his "coffee talks", he got a lvl 5 pvp event posted on the CoH Facebook page, he shows up on servers and broadcasts that he is in a zone and you will see people flock there to kill him as he jumps around in a rularu or golden roller costume. Avatea was great with getting swag for pvp event. Ocho was one of the few community reps who was willing to face the trolling by posting in /ac or the pvp forums, also Ex she was a strong supporter of PvP. However, between these and with so many of these supporters leaving we had community reps who really didn't give PvP any support or who PvPEC had to beg for swag, only to be told no. That also contributed to the lack of people trying PvP. I don't only blame the community reps but also PvPEC (which I am also at fault for) for not running more events to try to keep people interested in at least TRYING pvp.

3) Attrition- I said it in the original post and I still think its true. The game's population has decreased as a whole. The PvP "population" of this game has always been a small fraction of the total. As the total population decreased the group that PvPed also decreased, to the point were there isn't enough of us left to really run any high scale ladders, tournys or any team based PvP. Yes some of this attrition was due to i13 (perhaps even a large portion) but some people grew up got jobs, went to college, joined the military () or for some other reason stopped playing the game. It wasn't ALL due to i13.

Am I splitting hairs- perhaps. If so I accept that, but I just think its kind of crap to say i13 killed pvp because with that attitude there is no coming back from it, that gives no one any incentive to try pvp. I ran 2 seasons of Boot Camp and in both I was able to spark interest in PvP in players who had never tried PvP ever. They all had heard the PvP was horrible and broken since i13 but they were willing to try it and when some of them found that they actually enjoyed it and were willing to join the 2nd season of boot camp as mentors for other new players. Did it really change the face of pvp population, no, but if we had gotten away form the mantra that i13 killed pvp by making it unplayable then perhaps we would have had more players join or try pvp and the population wouldn't be the shadow of its former self.

So that is why I responded to "I13 drove them all away" the way that I did. Its just my opinon but as someone who has consistantly tried to grow and support new player trying pvp it really goes against everything that I have attempted to do for the last 2 years.

I actually wrote up a post this morning about this but as I drove in I realized I totally missed the point that I wanted to make so I deleted it and am making this one.


Again everything Im stating is my opinion and is biased by my personal feelings and beliefs:

HD/TS/DR =/= I13

Yes they are parts of i13, and there is a reason I want to try to keep them as just a part rather than saying they are synonymous.

If we say that everything that everything that is wrong with PvP is from i13. (In my opinion) we are fostering the belief in the general population that there is no coming back unless we repeal all of the changes together.

That to me is much different than saying that we want travel supression removed, or heal decay or diminishing returns or some combination of the them. When we say that we point out the subsets of i13 that really reduce the enjoyment of PvP for the majority of the players.

I know, it sounds the same but in my mind its not. We can turn off these aspects of the PvP mechanics that we don't enjoy in the arena so if we want to introduce players to PvP they can see and compare the two versions of the PvP game and make a decision as to if they enjoy it or not.

We can show these new players why TS isn't fun, we can show the devs/community reps why TS isn't fun.

Its the same with HD and DR.

The biggest issue that I have with lumping them all together and calling it i13 is that- asking for a fix for all three of those would be a huge undertaking.

We both know that you can't adjust HD without looking at inherent resists.

The same goes with looking at DR without looking at mez changes and damage modifers (or whatever the term for that is).

I think that by people going around saying i13, i13, i13 it doesn't lend itself to fixing the issue or pointing out what parts of i13 we really strongly want changed. It just starts a dogma that PvP isn't worth trying.

Again all my opinon jaded by the fact that these are the mentalities and attitudes that I have tried to deal with and overcome in getting people to try PvP.

Thanks. I'm actually glad you took the time to look at the posts and express yourself in a somewhat respectful way (for the most part).

lol, know what, I spent like 2 hours typing up a point by point response to you, but in all honesty I was over this discussion with you like a day ago.

I will PM you my comments to your post, it seems the most mature thing to do.

I heard about this...lol.

Hey TRT, I wanted to chime in about this.

In all honestly, Z has been really great about getting prizes for PvP events getting costume codes for that many players was a huge deal, considering in the past we had to beg and plead for getting like 5 to 10 codes for an event.

Avatea and Ocho were also both great in this aspect, they got the prizes with minimal reminding/harassment and actually wrote us back if there were any issues with obtaining the requested swag.

I don't know if its legal to talk about this but (and I forget where I read this- either the PvPEC boards or the PvPEC GP site). Part of the issue with the T-shirts for U2BG was that people were requesting XS or 4XL t-shirts which Paragon Studios (idk if they were called that back then) didn't even have access too. I don't know what ended up happening but I'm sure communications broke down.

The champion league, Bud told me (while we were still both on Sporks) that he was pulling all the prizes and telling paragon studios that he didn't want any swag for the event. That is why if you look at the rules now on the GP site there is no mention of prizes nor were any of those "full sets of pvp Ios" given to team captains after the 2nd week.

When I talk about lack of support I'm talking about when I was leading PvPEC and was told "no we can't get you any swag". We then went almost 4 months with no communication with that rep, we couldn't add anyone to the hidden PvPEC forums nor remove people who had left/quit. The fustration was tremendous, and I was personally funding all the events with my own "swag", this actually was a common practice for PvPEC, the leader prior to myself would actually buy time cards or DVD box sets and offer them as prizes, because there was a lack of support from the devs at that time.

So to go from that to what we have now, where I could talk to Avatea or Z and get 20 codes with no issues is amazing. For Kat to get the, idk, 30+ codes he got is unheard of.

My post about extensive knowledge was pure sarcasm.

The point I was trying to make was simply that someone was speaking about PvP from an authoritative position when that person had minimal if any PvP experience.

At the point where someone speaks based on second hand knowledge or information you really lose the validity of that information, because now you are accepting as fact whatever personal opinions or biases that person has formed about the data/experience they have collected (rather than forming your own).

You are 100% right, I don't know Con, I only have heard some of the Justice PvPers talk about him and read some of his posts. So if I claimed to be an expert on Con I would be as guilty as the next guy of talking about something I had no real experience with.

My point was:

Some people left CoX after i13. Some people came back. However, Pre i13 pvp was just as broken as post i13 pvp.

I think everyone who states otherwise is focused on TS/HD/DR while missing that the very things we (as the pvp community) asked for in our top priority demand list we got.

Do you remember when arena was almost unplayable because you had to keep resetting to get a "playable" map? that was a simple fix but it was huge.

That is/was my point.

#4, is as Klaw stated, how sLams are run on Freedom. Its pretty fast and effective, the one thing that seems to help a lot is if there is enough -jump on the team you can keep Maurader from jumping around and he just stands at his spawn point the whole time (note: I have yet been able to prove its -jump, but that is what everyone keeps telling me keeps him locked in place).

#3, I have seen players run speed lamadas this way as well. I guess the thought is, if you can clear both the warehouse and the lab in under 2 minutes it would be *faster* than just blitzing the grenades. When I have been on one of these type of runs, typically you just do just what you describe, leave all the doors open and just try to beat down Maurader as fast as possible, hoping that you kill 30 IDF to get that extra astral as well.


I think the real differences between the two would be:
1)with #3- you have the opportunity if everything goes to <pancake> to close the doors since you have the temps.

2)4 would be a bit faster IMO, by maybe 45-90 seconds.

Dual montiors ftw.


.

Z!!! have you not been reading Uber's Posts. THAT IS NOT BALANCE!

I never said that balance was achievable, only that its the same in PvE as it is in PvP.

Perhaps you missed Coyote_Seven's post:

This is what I responded to with:

So again, I didn't define "balance" as comparing one character to another and stating that "balance" ment that either player had an equal chance of wining. I was replying to a coment from another poster.

Therefore you are either being disingenuous by stating that balance does not mean what *I* think it means, or you simply didn't really read the posts.


Bolded pretty much what I've been saying this whole time. You desire a better balance, and I believe I asked (perhaps it was in a draft of my post) what would you do to create this balance you think is the only way to have viable pvp in this game? Honestly, have you even considered what you are asking for? Or because PvP isn't really up your alley do you instead just buy into what your "friends" told you?

Yet every league we get old school PvPers back who join and then leave again once the leagues are over.

I watched an episode of CSI once, but I don't think that qualifies me as a forensic scientist.

I also spend a lot of my time talking to surgeons, that doesn't mean I'm going to pick up a scapel or tell one how to do sugery.

I just do not understand how you can ride your high horse and lay judgement on an aspect of the game which you by your own admission have never really participated in. Maybe if you did, you would realize something can be fun without having to be 'balanced'.

Yes, I was. If this hurts your feelings in anyway, I do appologize.

They exist now. Sonic was popular on blasters, perhaps the 3rd most popular: following fire and Ice. I was actually serious about AR, you can pick a power set just for proc damage. Look at Rad blast, you can pick up some nice proc damage IOs from defense debuff sets as well as acc defense debuff. There is a KB set (Explosive strike I believe) that has a damage proc that allows it to be placed in various AR ST attacks.

Also for a humor break I offer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EARb4s9KVk8&feature=fvsr


Archery is great at low level pvp, due to its power recharge and its acc.

Just because Aracana says it, doesn't make it true. Just as Z saying Masque is right (sort of) doesn't make my points valid.

I understand what you are saying:

You think that everything should have a place- that every power should be
desirable in some situation. I get your idea of what balance means to you. However, my point is, that isn't a PvP phenomenon (oh btw Aracana also said something similar to this). Its a CoX phenomenon. So saying that PvP isn't viable or is broken because of this is pretty rediculous. If that is what makes PvP so unplayable and that is why people don't PvP then wouldn't everyone also not PvE?

I did post the link to what you are talking about here it is again:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=122744

I will also post what Putz listed under Power Balance Issues and Suggestions:

Look over those points, honestly, almost all of those have been addressed post I13. I'm not saying they are great fixes I'm saying that THESE are what the PvP community asked for (~175 PvPers).

As far as the dogma of blaming the devs/castle for DR/HD/TS. I hate to point out since I consider Putz to be a friend but here is the suggestion that was taken out of context and all of PvP was painted by too broad of a brush stroke:

So yes the suggestions were listen too, and unforunately, taken TOO far, rather than the popular belief that our voices were ignored.


Sorry my internet connection drops at work on my crappy laptop so I will often type things up on word and copy paste them to the forums.

Did this fight take place?

Sepapounder, did you mean this week, like... this weekend we can fight? or next week <.< this week is better for me.

There is a silly lvl 5 pvp ladder happening on Victory atm. The rules are: only TOs, ts/hd on, no insp, no repeating ATs, no repeating power sets.

If you can get a few people you should come, its funny.

Pee Wee Kara.... I'm pretty sure I will get mod'ed for that.