The_Gamemaster

I began work on a comprehensive Scrapper Secondary balance analysis document a few months ago (inspired by the protracted debate over your work) that makes probabilistic performance range comparisons of all of the sets in a variety of conditions. It started out entitled "A Simple Man's View of Scrapper Secondary Balance," but that got scrapped in a hurry, as it grew to over 20 pages of lists, complex and, at times, confusing verbiage, differential equations, and cross reference documents (there are currently four or six spreadsheets [depending on how I decided to break it out] of varying complexity to aid in completing the picture).

Recent health concerns and a desire to just play the damn game "encouraged" me to put completion of the project on hold, perhaps indefinitely, although I do hate to leave projects unfinished. Considering that much of what I was doing was essentially lining up within the range of the same basic conclusions that you came to in this discrete analysis, I felt justified in not finishing it. The real value of the document for anyone who could stand to slog through it is that I was in the middle of doing a pretty good job of explaining "why" things stack up the way that they do and why people have such different perceptions of relative performance.

My "new perspective" on dealing with balance is centered on encouraging people to play to their strengths. SR and Inv should strive to end fights quickly and take advantage of their ability to initiate combat gracefully. DA and Regen should build to stretch things out a little bit, strategically reducing the initial risks of entering combat, and availing themselves of the strength of their recuperative powers. If there's one thing that I have learned, it is that if you ask someone to do something that they cannot, you will, more often than not, be disappointed.

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If you really want mog then take it... just note that when you fight my bf in the arena, he'll still take you down and mog won't save your butts... lol

He's a BS Regen who doesn't play with mog.

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My Dad can beat up your Dad.

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Random query for rampant speculation and nothingness:

If there were no inspirations in the game (never implemented), and assuming power changes still occurred just as they have, would MoG be "more useful" in your eyes?


For me, no. I'm not a candy muncher for big fights. I horde them. I hardly ever need/use them except for the occasional ACC, Green, or Blue (any character/AT, even less so for my Regen). I don't stack Purps, reds, OJs for anything. Ever. And yet, I still come away just fine.....and still without using MoG.

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Of course, you are a pretty solid overall player with few basic weaknesses, so you can afford to horde your candy, you greedy SOB. Based on being sidekicked to you that time in Sara Moore, I will say that had you been a little less sparing with the inspirations and popped your purples at the beginning of two particular fights I remember, rather than when you got into trouble, you likely would have only died once in the entire TF, despite repeatedly charging into massive hordes of mobs like a crazy person, and more importantly, you'd have spared me an untimely death in the middle of a big group of Nemesis with the words, "My mentor is too far away to assist me," in a big, red bubble on the screen .

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Agreeing with me?

It just discredits you. I advise against doing so.

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Everthing that comes out of my mouth is per se discredited so

- discredit * -discredit = +credit

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Alas, - discredit * -discredit = +discredit...

Fortunately, we can make a quick substitution--

- discredit = credit; therefore, - discredit * -discredit = credit * credit = credit^2. Now that's a lot of credit if the base is very large at all.

Consider this though:

discredit * discredit = discredit^2...apparently being doubly discredited is potentially worse than the label would imply.

Here is the truly sad and final observation

discredit * credit = -credit * credit = -(credit^2) = a lot of negative credit, which is basically the same thing as discredit. It just goes to show that you can't win for losing, so give credit where credit is due, and you'll find discredit waiting there for you.

Oh, and MoG sucks... in case anyone forgot what we were talking about.

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I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.


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Wokka personalizes it to me. Disagree all you want. Arcana does. I love the argument.

But I've had Wokka call me out in post I wasn't even looking at. Others have had to tell me about them. I'm not the only one who doesn't like MoG. Now I'll admit my responses to him have not been the kindest either, but I've never initiated a personal battle.

When someone asks about MoG I just tell them what I think and say try before you buy and then either Wokka or Alisson come in to tell me I don't know how to play. That's what I object to.

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Then the solution is simple: Track them down and KILL THEM BOTH! Don't look at Personal Attacks as anything more than an opportunity to classify someone in the dichotomy between people with whom you can carry on a discussion and people you can't. That's what I do. In fact, if I can just personally attack a few more people this week...oh, wait...

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...if at the end of this, it boils down to: "I just like MoG EG and I make it work for me!" Cool. But then leave me alone. I have every bit as much right to despise MoG as you do to like it...

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So really then, this comes down to the right to demonstrate peacefully and express political ideas without oppression from the establishment.

I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.

It's really the essence of gripe I have with the idea that it's not OK to offend someone in a public (or private for that matter) forum. I think it is a good thing to be offended. It's helps you keep some perspective on the fact that you don't have a monopoly on point of view and that no one else does either. To believe otherwise is delusional at best.

On a personal level, I find myself deeply offended on a daily basis by the vehement expression of ideas which have no basis in fact or coherent thought, let alone reality, especially when rationalizing such arguments in ways that matters of great import are reduced to mere means to further some person's or group's self-interest.

On the matter of MoG (the actual topic of the thread as opposed to my philosophical viewpoint and blathering thereof), although I monkey around with it on my Regen, I have to agree with "your side of the argument" in a great many cases. The only times that I really and truly see MoG improving my situation are when IH is not an option and I'm fresh out of Purples...and when I have one second to click something and run away...or die.

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Well, back when I could be have been considered a newbie, I would have found the list very useful. Quite frankly, I think that's what the poster had in mind. These are very tactical, situational powers, by and large, that require a person to have at least a decent understanding of how powers inter-relate.

Particularly when in a team, a new player's not going to have that. There's a certain expectation, based on community norms, of what each AT is going to bring to your average PUG. If the player is griped out for using a power poorly, then that player's going to stop using that power, there-by creating a "useless power". Though more properly, it should be called an Unused Power.

Now, a lot of readers have already stopped and hit reply and are implying that, of course, they are never like that. They are always helpful and courteous and so forth.

Well, then, in these cases, I prescribe playing a melee fighter a team with a newbie gravity controller who just got Dimension Shift. Take two hours and reply the next morning.

Luerim

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Point taken. If the list had been presented in a context that at all resembled what you describe, I would agree with your analysis, but you are reading something into the OP that is simply not present.

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I felt this is a needed post to inform new players of some rather useless powers. A ruined build without a respec is never a good (unless your going for a concept character)."

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This statement of purpose does not resemble the kind of helpful commentary that you are describing that would include the qualification that some powers do not stand alone or that others require experience to master.

If someone with a mindset similar to your own had written a carefully-considered, "beginner's guide to linear building and how to avoid being a danger to yourself and others" then we would be talking about strategy, tactics, and communication rather than trying to figure out whether or not the OP knows what the heck he is talking about.

Hmmmm...there are a lot of pretty darn good, stand-alone damage mitigation and offensive combo powers in your list of powers to be avoided. I'd read the commentary of some of the respondents and sleep on it.

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Rebuttal: How can you hate a power with that cool an animation? That's right. You can't.

Therefore Moment of Glory is indeed, glorious. QED.

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That's fine. Only use it in Atlas to impress the noobs.

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That's what I do...I occasionally fire it off in combat, but then again debt means nothing to me...

I sent you a PM with a sample build based on your requirements; feel free to respond via PM or here.

Most excellent!

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I said that I would report back here after trying out the ol' Scary Scraptroller build, and update everyone with my results. To recap- the idea was to take ToF and CoF, and also Intimidate and Invoke Panic from the Presence pool to have theoretically quad-stackable fear, and the ability to immediately lock down every mob in a spawn. As one teammate called me, a walking boogeyman.

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So you followed through with the experiment and finished it. Impressive.

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My expereince with the Scary Scraptroller build can be mostly summed up in one word- overkill. (Exactly as The Gamemaster said it would be three months ago, but did I listen? No!)

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The good news is that you did exactly what I told you to do--Don't listen to me (or anyone else) if you want to try something out yourself, b/c I (they) could easily be wrong (either way you end up taking my advice; how's that for hedging my bets?). Since you had a lot of fun, it sounds like a successful experiment.

Once you hit L50 you can respec into a real build and get out there and kick some butt!

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I'll be glad when I get to the point to where I can make my own logical choices, I figure it takes one toon to 50 to even understand game mechanics. I've had the game for over a year now and there are STILL things about the game I don't understand :P

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That's one great thing about the forum community--there are plenty of experienced players (many of whom learned their lessons the hard way) willing to share their insights and experiences to make that journey much more pleasant.

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Awesome guide, I have many questions. I'll start with Death Shroud. You say NEVER skip it, yet it's not in a build until a 40 respec? I know you then go on to say "this is great at end game, when smashing/lethal is at it's highest"...are you saying NEVER skip at at endgame?

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You're right; there is some potential confusion in there. The reason that I don't include DS in the leveling build is b/c my goal is to teach an inexperienced player to learn to use control to develop patience and skill with Dark Melee and to learn how Touch of Fear fits into the system. So many times Dark Melee players hit a performance wall, b/c they try to play like every other Scrapper and just hack away at their opposition until they are all dead, and that is not how the set plays strongest. There is a time to go berzerk and a time to get control...then to go berzerk.

You'll note that I make the comment on that L40 Respec build that the training wheels are coming off. If someone just followed that leveling build and played it out, they would become very adept at controlling and micromanaging combats. When they hit the L40 respec build, they would make the transition really well with just Touch of Fear, b/c they would know how to use it, and they would be skilled enough at changing targets in combat from 40 levels of juggling with Air Superiority that they wouldn't get combat paralysis like some players do as they introduce themselves into a big fight. I am not trying to make players good; I am trying to help them let themselves be excellent.

The only way to do that is to ease them into the chaos and let them navigate it at their own pace. Giving someone Death Shroud before they are ready for it will not make them a better player; it will make them lazy, and they will not learn the importance of spreading the control wealth (AS and ToF) around combat. Additionally, they will be weaker strategists in managing their endurance by not having to worry about picking the correct attacks for finishing off weakened targets. AND...they will never master Shadow Maul, and that will most definitely come back to haunt them in the late game.

A novice player who follows the guide would probably settle into DM/DA and achieve a relative level of mastery in the L25-35 range (or so they would believe), and they would develop the confidence to depart from the prescribed build and go their own way, which would hopefully include the mighty Death Shroud.

I don't necessarily expect anyone to take everything in here as the one, true gospel, but if they do, they will not be disappointed with their performance.

The short answer to your question is that you should take Death Shroud when you are skilled enough that it will not hurt your development as a Dark Melee player. In the endgame, Death Shroud is what lets you solo effectively in the Crash Site and handle the hordes that you will face in the late story arcs (without it, you will be chipped away at and eventually overwhelmed). You must be battle hardened before you take it though, or you won't be as effective as you can/should be.

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Terrific guide. Although long, I was entertained through-out. Having played 37 levels of using Dark Melee, you are spot on IMHO. One question I have though is about hasten. I'm not a superspeed fan(I'm one of the rare Teleport fans) and usually skip hasten altogether. Would you consider hasten an essential part of a successful build? Thanks in advance for the input.

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Hasten is not essential by any means, but it definitely makes a difference. The big thing that it does for DM/DA is bring all of those useful "utility" skills back online much more quickly. ToF, SL, DC, SD, and DR are all magnified by Hasten.

Acrobatics is a better solution for KB/KD overall than Hover, as Hovering does not allow you to completely ignore it. Pre-Ed, Hover was great b/c you could five or six-slot it for Fly Speed and have great fun as well as get reasonable KB protection. Now, Hover is not nearly so attractive.

I used Hover in most of my builds b/c that is how I like to play my DM/DA. I like Super Jump, but not on that particular character. He is a Superspeeder, and I'd like to keep him that way, even in the face of having to work around a problem like Hover being too slow for PvP. I am a min/max'er for the most part, but this is a game with customizable options--character concept still counts, dammit!

In the modern game, unless you don't want Super Jump, Acrobatics is the way to go for the best KB/KD Protection, especially for PvP. Dinosaurs like me will continue to try and fit square pegs into round holes.

Am I lost?

Thanks Circeus! This is a very informative breakdown that should help debunk some myths about aggro and clarify the "sameness" relationship between Gauntlet and other Taunt effects for players who don't completely understand how things work.

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Essentially, each hit (if successful) will give you a short term damage buff. Different powers would have different buffs; but if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.

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Quoted from Statesman.

And then he gave it to brutes.


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Nice Necro research...another opportunity--Post++

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Gamemaster- Thank you for taking the time to write one of the most comprehensive and informative guides I have found on these boards. I appreciate your depth of DM/DA knowledge, and the hours you put into sharing that knowledge with the rest of us.

I am a relatively experienced scrapper (50 Kat/SR and 47 Kat/regen with scattered other alts) trying out the DM/DA seriously for the first time. My DM/DA is only up to 18, but so far I'm having a blast with him.

I do have one question for you. In your guide you mentioned the presence pool as for "experimental" builds only, and then discussed it no more. I have read another guide floating around the boards (the Scary Scraptroller guide) that advocated using the fear powers in the presence pool to augment and stack with the fear powers in the DM/DA set. This appeals to me in theory, and fits well with the concept of the character I'm building (fear, fear and more fear!). I especially like the idea of stacking the presence AOE fear with COF, and using TOF to ghetto lock down particularly resistant mobs and bosses. I was wondering your feelings about this idea, and if you have had any experience with this particular "experimental" type of build. Any insight you might be able to share would be appreciated since it is obvious you have spent quite a bit of time with the DM/DA set.

And again- can't thank you enough for the GREAT guide! Good job!

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Thank you for the positive feedback! It sounds like you are more than a "relatively experienced Scrapper" with a L50 and a L47 to your credit.

I did put together an uber Fear build at one point in the past (I4, I believe), just to try it out--in fact it was inspired by reading that very guide. My conclusion at the time were that it was overkill in PvE, as Touch of Fear + Cloak of Fear allowed you to dominate almost any group that you could pack into PBAoE range. I found no real gain in survivability, and in fact, I thought that Endurance use was much worse, and your arsenal of attacks was weaker for it. The biggest advantage was that you could really dictate the pace of combat, as almost nothing could withstand your Quadruple Threat of Fear.

A lot has changed since then, most notably, the "To Hit" debuffing effect of Cloak of Fear has been gutted (along with its accuracy). Dropping the Mag of CoF's Fear from 3 to 2 certainly weakened it as well. This could leave one wondering if it might be worth revisiting a pure Fear-based Scraptroller.

I won't knock it before I try it, but here is why I think that the results might be somewhat dissatisfying in a modern Scary Scraptroller build:

1) The heart of the old Fear build is the CoF debuff. Without it, you will find it more difficult to handle strong mobs that resist the first wave of fear or that take swipes at you as you fight. That debuff ensured that everything in range was close to the "To Hit" floor, especially if you turned on Cloak of Darkness. Without that, you will need to lean on your base shields, which will sustantially reduce the amount of endurance available to launch your attacks.

2) The duration of most Fear effects has been reduced significantly, so despite endurance costs being slashed across the board, you will pay proportionately more endurance to get lesser performance. To make matters worse, since Cloak of Fear has been reduced to a 50% base chance "To Hit," you will have trouble slotting it the way that it needs to be slotted to perform in a Fear build. At the levels where it will hurt you the most, you basically need 3 accuracy, 3 endurance reduction and 2 or 3 Fear duration to get CoF to perform the way that you need it to. That's obviously more slots than you get.

3) Damage output. With ED, your damage dealing has been cut back, so it takes more hits, and therefore more time, to put down each mob. This translates into more micromanagement of your Fear powers and even more endurance being required to maintain control throughout combat.

Now despite the concerns that I have raised, I have no doubt that it could be fun to play with a Fear-based build. At the end of the day though, I am a pragmatist, and when I look at the returns that I would get from having to four and six slot all of these Fear powers versus slotting out attacks in their place that could deal damage or slotting utility powers that could contribute directly to my combat survival, I have to question the wisdom of going for Fear-Uberness.

Although...you could have a lot of fun in PvP zones with a Mega-Fear build. People would love you! I have always gotten a lot of compliments from other players who tell me how much they enjoy being locked down by Fear. You could very well get more attention than you ever imagined possible .

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I took my scrapper to the test sever to change her into the build, after I did so I bought all new enchants for her and setup the skills the way I wanted to, I took her for a test run. It was the most fun I have ever had , next to nothing could stop her, the end drain was a bit higher then I am used too but I get the hang of it pretty fast. It is just so cool, now I am taking on foes I would have never tried before. The Mercenaries were fun before I can’t see them when they hide themselves but it’s a whole new ball game now. I fought one of the Carnival’s bosses ( I think it was a Master Illusionist because of all the pets she had) she kept me on my toes because I don’t know what she was going to do, she made me put ToF on auto after that, but man what a rush!! I loved it!!!

One of my friends that is an Ice/Storm Controller that I team with said I was like a mini controller. Thank you for taking the time to make this guild, I would reamaned it to anyone who has DM or DA in there toons if only at the very lest for info on them. It’s the best guild I have ever seen for these power sets. Again Gamemaster thank you so very, very much

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That's good news! I'm glad to hear that you're having fun. Behind all of the numbers and analysis, that's what the game is all about!

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If you are going by the L50 build guide and want to diversify, Touch of Fear is really nice with additional slotting for the "To Hit" debuff. They are reducing the enhancements to Schedule B (5/10/20%), so they will not be quite as effective in the future, but they will still be good (You can always put Fear Duration in those slots and still get great benefit from them). Otherwise, I would just beat out the curve and put the slots into Dark Consumption to get it to full power earlier. Some veterans would suggest sticking a slot or two in Obsidian Shield.

Just as a note, I really like Super Jump with one additional slot. It is fine with just the base slot, but it really does fly high with two. Maybe one in Touch of Fear, Obsidian Shield, or Dark Consumption and one in Super Jump. Any of these that strike your fancy won't be a wasted slot.

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Thanks for your insight, I was looking at my version of your 50 respee and found that I had a one to many slots in Super Jump so I can put it in DC and have it maxed at L43 and put the others that I get at L40 into ToF and OS. LOL than I will have one a slot at L46 that will need a home. Just to make it clear I will have 2 slots in SJ, 2 in OS, 6 in DC and 3 in ToF so were do I put the L46 slot? ToF? I can also put the L25 Slot that I had in SJ into OS instead of DC so the L46 slot will max DC later, but I think the 1st idea is the better choice.

I will double Check this to be sure later.

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If you are looking hard for places to put slots, another alternative, if you haven't already six-slotted it, is to add another slot to Dark Regeneration. Another slot in DR is always a good decision. I'd say that if you have all of your damage-dealing powers and Soul Drain slotted in their final configurations, your best slot economy for that L46 slot is probably in DR or ToF.

Thanks for all of the positive feedback! Half the fun of this game for me is the community, and I am just happy to have the opportunity to contribute something to it besides mere verbiage.

Interesting analysis. I followed the construction and your reasoning, but honestly I am not 100% sure how to interpret or apply the model (sometimes I overlook things).

The search for the Holy Grail is always an elusive one. Looking at the expression that you are trying to evaluate at the end, I think all that you need to do is break it apart, and you can evaluate it. I am not sure if the result is meaningful or not, but...

4(F+S)(3FDD + 3SD - 5FD -F -3S-1)
--------------------------------------------------- = 0
(FFDD+SS+FSD)(9DD+6D+1) + FSD(9DD+6D)


This is only going to be true if:

(1) (F+S)=0

and/or

(2) (3FDD + 3SD - 5FD -F -3S-1)=0

and/or

(3) (FFDD+SS+FSD)(9DD+6D+1) + FSD(9DD+6D) --> Infinity


Clearly (1) makes no sense, as it happens when F=-S, so that will never happen unless you become really, really fast or time starts running backward during the mission.

(3) will never approach Infinity unless you are staying in your mission maps for too long, so that leaves us with only one option.


(2) (3FDD + 3SD - 5FD -F -3S-1)=0

If you sort out the terms on the order of D and factor:

3FDD + 3SD -5FD -F -3S -1 = 0

3FDD + D(3S - 5F) -F -3S -1 = 0

This is a quadratic in D (aD^2 + bD +c)--grouping visually:

(3F)DD + (3S - 5F) - (F + 3S + 1)


Grinding through the quadratic formula, you find that

-(3S - 5F) +/- SQRT((3S - 5F)^2 + 12F(F + 3S + 1))
-------------------------------------------------- = D
6F


Now take that and see if it jives with your expectations and relate it back to the rest of your work.

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Hi, 1st let me just say that I love your guilde on this AT I have been playing this game for awhile now but have yet to really bring out the true power of my DM/DA scrapper she is level 42 (soon 43) now and I am planning to Respec her into your lvl50 PvE build.

My question is that I am going to be using the leaping pool instated of the Speed and flight pools for KB protection, I use the planer and found that I had 2 Ehn slots at lvl40 I don’t have a place for, I was thinking of putting them into Oppressive Gloom, want do you think I should do?

Thank you

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If you are going by the L50 build guide and want to diversify, Touch of Fear is really nice with additional slotting for the "To Hit" debuff. They are reducing the enhancements to Schedule B (5/10/20%), so they will not be quite as effective in the future, but they will still be good (You can always put Fear Duration in those slots and still get great benefit from them). Otherwise, I would just beat out the curve and put the slots into Dark Consumption to get it to full power earlier. Some veterans would suggest sticking a slot or two in Obsidian Shield.

Just as a note, I really like Super Jump with one additional slot. It is fine with just the base slot, but it really does fly high with two. Maybe one in Touch of Fear, Obsidian Shield, or Dark Consumption and one in Super Jump. Any of these that strike your fancy won't be a wasted slot.