The_Gamemaster

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Actually for this particular content. BS >> DM

Parry gives you a Defense buff to everything hitting you. DM is mostly single target and so the -to-hit only works on what you have your attention one. Additionally BS has better AoE.

My DM/EA had to use Lucks as well as sturdies, but Snappy was missing quite a bit because of ToF.

During the Winter event Snappy DM >> BS because of the damage type and the lesser number of mobs.

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I guess, EG, but against that many mobs, Soul Drain>>BuildUp and Shadow Maul becomes a mowing scythe...meanwhile, ToF neutralizes the EB long enough for you to dispatch his help.

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Shadow Maul's tiny cone just doesn't do it for me. When you hear the CRUNCH of Slice and the BOOM of Whirling sword connecting 13 times, you feel all tingly inside.

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I certainly can't dispute the coolness of or the tingly feelings brought on by swinging a Broadsword...I was just talking about winning the fight.

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Actually for this particular content. BS >> DM

Parry gives you a Defense buff to everything hitting you. DM is mostly single target and so the -to-hit only works on what you have your attention one. Additionally BS has better AoE.

My DM/EA had to use Lucks as well as sturdies, but Snappy was missing quite a bit because of ToF.

During the Winter event Snappy DM >> BS because of the damage type and the lesser number of mobs.

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I guess, EG, but against that many mobs, Soul Drain>>BuildUp and Shadow Maul becomes a mowing scythe...meanwhile, ToF neutralizes the EB long enough for you to dispatch his help.

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Testing update.

Heroic spawn of Snaptooth AV and minions - Died in MoG in 50 sec.

Invincible spawn of Snaptooth AV and minions - Died in 13 sec.

That's all damage MoG is supposed to protect you from, folks. Same spawns with inspirations and or IH/DP led to victory.

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Worth noting: assuming you used dull pain inside of MoG (and I presume you would), the death in 13 seconds implies an eluded scrapper would have died in even less time, unless they immediately used respites. Even with fully slotted health, an SR scrapper would only recover about 130 health in 13 seconds at level 50. A MoGed scrapper with dull pain has the equivalent of 789 health more than a conventional SR scrapper.

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Going on with your next point, I used it against Snappy and his gang because I knew the accuracy was so high they probably would have been able to wear me down. But cripes 13 seconds? I was surprised how easy it was for them. But an SR would have had an advantage I lacked in MoG. Sturdies.

Elude + 5 Sturdies = Beatdown for Snappy.


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Snappy!

With all three Passives, five sturdies would help, but adding a couple or four reds would help more. If they ate through MoG that fast, Elude would be a complete nonfactor as well, unless you just click it for the endo recovery.

My memory must be fading...is this the same Snappy that I repeatedly beat down in the winter event, often using no inspirations at all? Even my gimp AR/Eng pounded that wuss.

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The difference was that was Snappy by himself and he is a wuss. The Valentine's day Snappy calls in his boys to help beat you down. They all have an accuracy bonus on their attacks. Having twelve Redcaps and an EB hitting on you wears you down quick.

With MoG, because you can't heal and can't really get benefit from any inspirations you're stuck.

With an SR with Sturdies, the defense + resistance would have give the SR breathing room to leisurely take Snappy down. That's how my DM/EA Brute did it and she didn't even have Overload yet.

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12 redcaps! I see...

Not to mention--Dark Melee>>Broad Sword

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Testing update.

Heroic spawn of Snaptooth AV and minions - Died in MoG in 50 sec.

Invincible spawn of Snaptooth AV and minions - Died in 13 sec.

That's all damage MoG is supposed to protect you from, folks. Same spawns with inspirations and or IH/DP led to victory.

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Worth noting: assuming you used dull pain inside of MoG (and I presume you would), the death in 13 seconds implies an eluded scrapper would have died in even less time, unless they immediately used respites. Even with fully slotted health, an SR scrapper would only recover about 130 health in 13 seconds at level 50. A MoGed scrapper with dull pain has the equivalent of 789 health more than a conventional SR scrapper.

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Going on with your next point, I used it against Snappy and his gang because I knew the accuracy was so high they probably would have been able to wear me down. But cripes 13 seconds? I was surprised how easy it was for them. But an SR would have had an advantage I lacked in MoG. Sturdies.

Elude + 5 Sturdies = Beatdown for Snappy.


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Snappy!

With all three Passives, five sturdies would help, but adding a couple or four reds would help more. If they ate through MoG that fast, Elude would be a complete nonfactor as well, unless you just click it for the endo recovery.

My memory must be fading...is this the same Snappy that I repeatedly beat down in the winter event, often using no inspirations at all? Even my gimp AR/Eng pounded that wuss.

Thank you for the kind words.

Cloak of Darkness generally provides sufficient Immob protection for most game content, although I have had those moments where I really wished I had something more, say when I have a horde of Thorncasters or Possessed Scientists locking me down. Of course, I have not noticed much difference in those scenarios when playing builds with both Combat Jumping and CoD, but as a wise Scrapper, I do carry at least one Breakfree, just in case something overcomes my Status Protection in a dangerous situation.

On the topic of Status effects, in general, in the modern game, Obsidian Shield is not strong enough to keep you from getting mezzed in the face of groups that can stack them. It is a good idea to carry a breakfree or three. The Scrapper's conventional wisdom should read something along the lines of: Breakfree's...they're not just for PvP anymore.

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Firstly Gamemaster, thanks for the guide. I agree with others, it's the best one I've read so far.

A question, have you tried the other scrapper primaries with DA? Do any of the others combine as well with DA as DM?

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I have at least tried (at least played into the teens) every primary with DA except for Claws. I currently have a Spines/DA in the 30's that is glorious fun. The combination of Spines with Death Shroud, Dark Regeneration, and Oppressive Gloom is sick, to say the least. The sword sets' ability to stack Defense (from Parry and Divine Avalanche) with Resistance and Dark Regeneration is frightening in terms of the sustained survivability level they can achieve. Martial Arts doesn't really get that much special from DA until L35, when it can stack Disorients with Oppressive Gloom (I have not played it that high).

IMO, despite the strength of some of the other combinations, Dark Melee has a leg up on the other Primaries with respect to comboing with Dark Armor simply from the potential power of stacking Fear and Healing (Touch of Fear and Siphon Life on CoF and DR) and adding the "ToHit" debuffs of Dark Melee to the Control, Resistance and Click Healing layers of Dark Armor. Looking at the big picture, Dark Melee has the ability to shut down single targets, and Dark Armor can neutralize weak groups; combined, they are a virtual, combat pause button.

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..You make this stuff too hard sometimes Arcana. I know you enjoy it and the intellectual exercise it presents, but The_Gamemaster could trivially fix this problem. Maybe it won't be perfect, but cripes we don't need perfect...

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Fixed that for you...

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It's a good thing I'm insufferably arrogant. I wouldn't survive around here for long otherwise.

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Indeed.

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..You make this stuff too hard sometimes Arcana. I know you enjoy it and the intellectual exercise it presents, but The_Gamemaster could trivially fix this problem. Maybe it won't be perfect, but cripes we don't need perfect...

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Fixed that for you...

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And that is why datamining for performance is, in my opinion, a bad idea. Data mining behaviors to find out behaviors makes sense. Data mining performance intertwines two separate components of performance - power strength and player tactics - that should never be balanced together, almost always addressed separately.


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I disagree. I think your idea ignores the possibility that the maximum potential of one powerset might be harder to obtain than the maximum potential of another powerset.

Now I know you disagree, but I think it's perfectly appropriate that Regen has more potential protective ability than SR since you have to decide when to use it. Your models just predict the ultimate potential of both sets, without determining if on the whole regen players are actually achieving that potential.

It seems to me that you need to look at the datamining to determine if, in practice, Regen and DA are outperforming SR 'on the street'. Because it they are not, then SR doesn't need a buff even if its theorhetical performance is weaker.

I shall now run since I have committed a foul sin and Arcana will now try to smite me.

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Actually, Arcana is usually talking about Marital Arts when she is Scrapping; I am a more likely poster to try and Smite someone...

I am also someone who understands that player skill can make something outperform its numbers, but I'm going to have to agree with Arcanaville on this one. You cannot balance with a metric based on average performance on the street. The street is inconstant, and without qualification (where, what, how many, Inspirations, etc...), it is a poor indicator of inherent set performance.

Powers and combinations of powers need to be analyzed and have their parameters set based on mathematical rules. It is not the fault of mathematics that its employers have a poor understanding of how to utilize it in complex scenarios. It requires a lot of work to become adept at mathematical analysis--talent is obviously key in fast learning, but, as with most endeavors, ultimately "sticktuitiveness" will win out in the long run over natural ability. I know first hand the anal-rententive attention to detail required to break down systems with large numbers of degrees of freedom and try to model them in a way that handles cases more complex than those of the first order. It ain't easy (a nod to _Castle_'s statement about not having the time to do things right [academically].)

The best solution that you have available is indeed to break out "the human factor" into a separate treatment that allows you to isolate the causes of its, at times, overabundant success. Many times players will break some nonpower-based mechanic (as with kiting) and gain an advantage with a particular power or combination of powers. We have to recognize why something is overperforming to react to it intelligently and effectively.

This is an important distinction based on your own reasoning. If we nerf power X in order to bring into line its effectiveness due to an unexpected synergy created by exploiting mechanic Y, then players "in the know" get balanced performance from the combination of X and Y, and players in the dark have what they consider an underpowered option in power X. That sucks, for both those players and for the game as a whole.

I would submit that broken mechanics need to be recognized and fixed, as a first response to exploits, over nerfing. Arbitrarily changing numbers on particular abilities or powers to fix problems often breaks the framework that sets of abilities and powers were designed to work within, causing greater problems down the road (e.g. Fiery Aura, the Tanker Primary).

All of that said, your point is valid that "on the street" performance does matter. The devs aren't insane for using it, BUT...but, it should be a means to determine if sets as a whole might need some love or further analyzed for behavioral trends to determine if they need to be toned down (that means reevaluated from a design standpoint, not randomly, numerically fudged).

Moral of the story: Mathematical models are like program code, in general--You end up getting exactly what you put together. When it's not what you expected, it is usually your fault.

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...In any case, the debate of whether numerical analysis is actually effective or not is immaterial in this case, because no number in CoH is actually *set* by data mining. They are all either computed, or arbitrarily set by a designer. Data mining might suggest to a designer that a number is too high, or too low, but it doesn't give any guidence as to what it actually ought to be. And when there is a total absence of any numerical understanding of what is being balanced, and you attempt to replace understanding with data mining, you end up flailing around randomly. cf: Regeneration. Its never a good circumstance to be in.

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Exactly! This is the heart of the problem with analyzing any complex system. Often mathematical modeling will uncover truths that no amount of outcome-based data mining or gross averaging can ever reveal.

Nice work, btw.

Nice guide, Cinderblock! You are a credit to the community. One complaint though-- Your guide is only about 17 pages long in MS Word. If you ever do an update, more verbiage, please! 25 pages is the minimum for an epic guide.

Good stuff! Recommended reading for anyone wanting to learn more about commanding the forces of Darkness.

Good news! The New Testament will be in the works soon after the new year...

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Gamemaster, if he posts a guide to a concept build, it's still not really a guide. He doesn't discuss the pros and cons of other powers he didn't take. This is just a build. It's not a guide.
You might be able to label it a guide if he discussed the tactics that make the build viable though, other than "find a team".
(He didn't say that, but from reading the build, he'd need one.)

Oh, I just noticed that he's slotted superjump. Whic is fun, but... It caps at 2 jump enhancers and he's slotted 3...

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I understand what you are saying, and I agree that more exposition is called for to flesh out the methods and goals of the build. What I am saying is that it is more useful to the community as a whole if we ask questions or offer specific criticisms as to how to improve the format or content of whatever it is someone offers up to the community. For example, your response to me in this case is constructive--you indicate what you see as the specific problems with what you read, as opposed to your initial reaction: "This isn't a guide. It's just a build wasting slots."

I am not experienced enough with AR/Dev to comment authoritatively on Primary or Secondary power choices in the build, and while I would question the efficiency of slotting CJ, SJ, and Boxing in the fashion the OP did, that is really not what drew my attention to the thread. I am not trying to be patronizing to anyone in this discussion when I say that I feel like there is a high level of benefit in being at least somewhat diplomatic in dealing with other people who obviously care about the community. Can't we all just get along?!

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this is obviously a concept build first, and we (dirty powergamers) have to respect that as a valid, base framework.

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I'll bite. He shouldn't proffer this us as a GUIDE then, he should state that it's his personal build and leave it at that. Guides are what the name says, a showing of others or helping others how to play a particular AT/powerset. This just shows people how to be an [censored] xp leech.

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Well, being a dirty powergamer, I tend to agree that I would prefer that guides be written by other powergamers, but I have to disagree with the notion that concept builds/guides should be prohibited from this section. Since there is no objectively "right or wrong" build for any AT, even obviously suboptimal builds should not be barred from submission before the fact or deleted once discovered.

This is a community forum, and everyone should be afforded the chance to share their thoughts. Considering that the discussion following the OP's offering has not included rave reviews or ringing endorsements, I think that there is little danger that anyone reading this thread will be misled into "gimping" their AR/Dev Blaster.

The OP obviously cares enough about the community to try and contribute something to it. It takes a degree of courage, even in an anonymous forum, to put your creative efforts out in front of "the world," and I commend the OP for his efforts. It took me about a week to put together the DM/DA Bible, and I had no idea how the community would react to it. For all I knew, it was a complete waste of time that could have been ridiculed or completely rejected. Even for someone who has written a significant number of visible professional and academic documents, there is a certain amount of stress that comes from "putting yourself out there," even in a casual venue, like these forums. Situations like this are learning opportunities.

I hope that the OP can benefit from some constructive criticism of his power and slotting choices and at the same time not be alienated from trying to contribute to the community in the future. When I look back at some of the DM/DA builds that I put together before I really learned how things worked, I am borderline embarrased. Fortunately for my Forum Cred, I never posted any of them...

Thank you for the entertaining read!

I think that you are catching some flack from members of the powergaming community b/c of the lack of distinction as to the goals of your build and the suboptimal placement of some of the "extra" slots that leaning heavily on Targeting Drone affords. I won't quibble over the reasons for the choice of Swift over Hurdle or Boxing over Acrobatics or Aid Self, as this is obviously a concept build first, and we (dirty powergamers) have to respect that as a valid, base framework.

To me, it looks like this is primarily a soloist build that will run best at any difficulty level below Unyielding. Fighting at the Unyielding level (+2's) is certainly easily doable with a gameplan and, where required, patience (Fighting +3's will strain your "Targeting Drone-only" Accuracy slotting). The power choices and slotting imply that you like to play with your food before eating it--i.e. slotting for so much extra range suggests that "divide and conquer" is probably the name of your game.

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I rest my case. Well played Enant. Well played...

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Meh, I read your post before typing anything of my own.

I had this exact argument with him in a 'Stamina is necessary' thread about a year ago, I've had this exact argument with a few others since then. I now have a post to refer them to rather than waste my time typing that all out again. Plus I was waiting for my MP3 player to recharge.

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Meh.

I rest my case. Well played Enant. Well played...

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Enantiodromos wrote:
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The irony is, after brazenly stealing sections from other people's guides without asking (credited them, but didn't ask), the only person I managed to annoy at all, I think, was Frost.

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Wow, she carries her annoyance with grace...

Frost wrote:
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Thanks to Enan for compiling this and to all the members of the Controller community who contributed. Turned out very nicely

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Sounds pretty riled up to me...

Interesting guide though. It's not particularly shocking that it would come from the most prolific guide-writer on the forums. It's nice to get this much information concentrated in one place, espcecially for those of us who are experienced players that are only now getting around to exploring the mysterious world of Controlling (at least from the Controller AT anyway )...

Cheers!

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Enantiodromos is my favorite linguist. You really can't get anything by him!

*applause* for another great guide.

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He is quite the cunning linguist... I think that he was metagaming the forum when he wrote this--writing a guide designed to generate a thread that could serve as a testament to the hypothesis that for each and every possible position on any topic whatsoever, there are multiple forum posters who will take up arms in opposition to that position.

Sorry, I thought this was a MtG post that found its way onto the CoH forums...carry on.

<ul type="square">[*]You remember fondly playing Omega Race, Asteroids, Space Invaders, Vanguard, Defender (not that wussy Stargate clone), Pac Man and Robotron at the first arcade that opened in your city/town
[*]Played Pong before you ever laid eyes on Space Invaders
[*]You know the "double-shot" cheat for Space Invaders for the Atari 2600
[*]You learned to write interpreted Basic on a Vic20 (cf-You thought 4K was a lot of memory)
[*]You thought the best feature of the Commodore 128 was the "Go 64" command
[*]You thought it was great and suspected no ulterior motive in your Dad's willingness to watch Wonder Woman with you
[*]You know what hero a "Beta Capsule" is associted with and simultaneously can identify another hero from this snippet--

"...Hear the Flash like a flame, Faster than a plane, a mystery with the name, ________!"
[*]Have a clue what I am talking about when I start yelling, "Help Giant Robot!" into my flip-top wristwatch.
[*]Played online and at one time thought that a ping of 150 was too smokin' fast to compete with
[*]Know of Kali as something besides an Egyptian myth or a CoH forum poster
[*]Can identify which superhero's normal ID was repeatedly referred to as weak-kneed and a milksop
[*]Had a modem that interfaced with your phone via a cradle designed to hold the receiver
[*]Did numerical analysis work with Numerical recipies in Fortran, b/c that was the way things were going to work in the future
[*]Believed that Levenberg-Marquardt was impractical in all but trivial cases b/c of the prohibitive amount of time required for a computer to crank out results and that Gauss-Newton and an educated guess would always be faster
[*]Believed it when someone said that 640K would be WAY more memory than anyone could ever need[/list]

I'll take the bump bait, which apparently got modded...

I have read this guide about three times since you initially posted it. It is a good primer on the psychology of people who form and join teams. I am a player who solos about 75% of the time but who enjoys the social aspects of teaming, from both a leadership and support standpoint.

As a team member, I always try to operate with an eye toward helping the team as best I can, but always deferring to and supporting the leader in the big picture. I can always make my apologies and leave at the end of a mission if I don't like the team, but I try never to undermine the leader.

As the leader of a team, your advice is spot on for subtly manipulating the mood of the team members. People want to follow, even those who try to wrest control from the leader; that is why they joined in the first place. The trick is in finding the best ways of assuaging their fears, keeping their interest, and maintaining the fun.

Thanks for writing; I'll reread this again at its next quarterly bump.

Some good advice, some horrible advice. To quote a wise man, "L50 is a journey, not a destination." Just play the game--there is no wrong way to do that, as long as you have fun.

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Don't mock me for stating a fact. He built his toon that way. I have screen shots of him killing people and criting on people that were in mog. If you want it then take it, but don't plan on using it in PvP or arena. Sorry for making a suggestion.

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Apology dissed. I was commenting on the "my b/f can beat you up" aspect of your post, not the game-related content. You raise a valid point. I apologize.