Techbot Alpha

I still have one big question;
Where are all these god tanks that people talk about?
Took my lvl 50 Invul/EM tank into Sirens after a slight re-work, and got faceplanted ever time as soon as I tried to fight. Horribly and depressingly

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That's one way of dealing with things. Though I am not sure if people like being hung out clueless all the time. I find that I like to have a clue if I am able to deal with my opponents or that it is time to start running hard. Finding out the hard way all the time is not something I really can appreciate.

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In one way I agree. I remember very well that the first time I played Darklands it was frustrating, because of an expectation that if the game let me do something, I ought to at least have some kind of a chance at it. Leaving the city was dangerous, doing anything which lead to a fight with the city guards was dangerous, people offered me missions my poor hapless characters would definitely die trying to complete... So I gave up for a while. When I eventually tried again, though, and figured out how the world worked, I ended up loving it more than practically any other game I've ever played.

So, on the one hand, the steep learning curve and the lack of structure made it harder for me to get into the game. But on the other hand, it was a part of what ultimately made the game so enjoyable, because it made the world feel a lot more real. If I knew what the perfect solution was to balancing those two things, I'd be designing games :-)

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Good point. Certain zones should maybe still have restrictions on them. Although basing it purely on 'level' doesnt really do it, maybe more a set of prerequisites, much like contacts have?
For example, to gain access to the RWZ, you first have to complete certain missions for a pair of Agents who mind the Portal in. The would (obviously) be Rikti related, and until you'd completed them you wouldn't be able to head in.

Also, using the powers idea again, there could be some sort of 'Tier' limit. So, if there were ten tiers, say, everything that was 'Tier 1' is open from the get go. Tier 2 is very easy to get into. Tier 10 is only available once you have trained one of your top level powers, either primary or secondary. That way, people will be properly equipped before being able to take on the zones.

For some of the lower tier things, there might well be some sort of 'Induction' mini-zone, to allow Players to see if the character can handle whats in that particular zone. So, for the Hollows for example, the PPD barricade area would have a little area where Characters could fight Hologram Trolls, or somesuch. If it was found to be too tough, they could head away, without having got pounded into the dirt needlessly. For City zones, maybe make the PPD Stations feature more.

Yeah, Freem I didnt get until someone reminded me of the 'Graphic sounds' April fools
And yes, lets see some new ones.

Yes, Spades, but the point is there is too much inconsistancy. Does that PoV mean that everyone wearing a shoulder cape or a Valkyrie cape INSTANTLY gets snubbed by the Hero Community?

And Recluse might tout absolute power, but there are enough groups in the Rogues that don't give a spit, and will probably shelter such members as choose to ignore him (maybe for a fee, of course). And, again, if thats the case why does everyone wearing a valkyrie cape or shoulder cape not get attacked by a lvl 50 Bane Spider squad as soon as they step into Mercy Island?

As for Hero 1 and the timeline, the timeline has so much borkage in it that Im starting to think the Menders MIGHT be bad guys
Even if the Phalanx has decided to keep mum, the rest of the world wouldnt. Villains who want to laugh in the faces of the heroes would plaster the truth all across the internet, hells all across anywhere, and im pretty sure the Hero community would natter about it. Im certain I've heard that discussion at least once at GG or PD.

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Apparently CO has capes at level 1.

+ 1 to CO for me then.

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So it's total has now moved up to -4,567?

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No, but every time I see you post something like this, CoH loses points just through association.

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Being fair, GG isnt *that* bad. You can guarantee, whatever MMo you go on in the whole Universe, there will be people you (generalised you/we) hate. Its as unavoidable as the sunrise

What, apart from everony griping that its too easy to leve, do TFs, finish content..?

Id rather have them available at lvl 1 for consistancy and for character creation. Thats jsut my view. What the hey.

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It makes sense that you don't get allowed to wear THE item that is so special as the cape. Just as commando's aren't allowed to wear their green beret before they have proven themself. The cape is a badge of honor. An honor you will have to earn. This in honor of Hero 1.


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And this also explains the villain side of it too. Given that the lowest level a hero is going to be is 20, it makes sense that as a villain you're going to need to be the same level to have the slightest chance of pinching it off him.

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...-headscratch-
How does that even come anywhere near explaining the Villain side of it?

Steady lad, no bringing good ranting points in from other threads

Although a tailor in Atlas/Galaxy or one of the lower zones gets my /Signed

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Well Techbot, it sounds interesting enough and as you describe it even workable. Not sure if I would prefer it over our current system though. But you know there is one big big flaw with your setup.

No more Ding! + Grats!!!!!

I would sincerely miss that,

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Au contraire, my grinning friend There would be the Ding!, that of a skill finishing training, meaning it was fully powered and the character could then pick another power to work on.
Especially a Ding for training something large like Inferno or any of the nukes =]

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Now you can think and roleplay that you are the biggest hero/villain on the planet but that is not something supported in this game. This game is about the CoH universe, not about DC or Marvel or Champions or any of the ideas you may have created yourself.

What is utterly wrong is the fact that you now can buy a cape. A marketing ploy that is in contrast to the game. Should the game adapt istelf because some guy in a suit only wanting to make a few fast bucks says so? I think not. I will buy that valkyrie pack but i will not wear that cape before I hit 20.

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Statesman doesnt make the laws. There is no STATE LAW that says 'Heroes cannot wear capes until this point'. And the fact that not all heroes are even FROM the US, or even earth, makes that point completely moot.

And, as I have said before, this completely ignores the Villain side of things, where most characters attitudes is a big 'Up yours'.

You have the choice of not wearing the cape until 20. What is the issue here is that those who want to wear a normal cape pre-lvl 20 do not have the option. Which is contradictory and silly.

Anyway, why the hell should it be in respect of Hero 1 now? The guy isnt even dead! Although the teams I've been on to fight him would have had something to say about that.../e knuckles

Its not adressing the issue, either whichway.

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I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".

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Right, so Zortel, my energy blaster, puts exploding ammunition rounds in her suit that doesn't fire bullets for more damage? Azure Arrow learns how do to fancy martial arts dragon strikes to make his arrows do more damage? My Psychic psychology student uses magical items and genetic alteration to become more adept at his powers?

I may be a roleplayer, but I don't let the game mechanic driven system dictate my characters.

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Forgive me if I'm being thick, but whilst I understand the point your're making, I don't understand the relevance to the quote.

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You mentioned Training Origin enhancements. Zortel was pointing up how the way enhancements work and are named is jsut so much guff

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Could the difficulty colour rating not be linked to mob "exp"?

eg a standard hellion will have 0 exp where as a boss may have 5000 exp in their trees?

you could then compare your total exp with that of the mob to derive the difficulty?

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Not quite sure how that works out...D'you mean that the LT and above enemies get exp to 'spend' in a similar way? If so, thats actually quite a neat idea;

A Hellion Lt, for example, has a choice of three or four powers. Say burning fists, buckshot, burst and a resistance boost, or something. Being an LT they would have a certain ammount of exp to 'spend', which would be randomly distributed by the Spawn generator. To avoid messups, exp could only be spent in a power to train it fully. So an enemy wouldnt get the same 'half way allowace' and PC would.

So, say three Hellion LTs spawn. One has Buckshot and burst, the other has fire palms and burst and the other has the resistance boost.
The resistance one, as it inherently makes an enemy tougher, in this example would take all the available exp. Seeing as he has no 'over-riding' attacks, the LT would fight using the 'base' attacks of a minion, say a pistol and a sledgehammer.

Thats just one example, anyway. But that could lead to more diverse and interesting mob types.

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How do you envisage dealing with difficulty levels? Increasing the baseline stats by a notch per every other level and maybe increasing the group spawn size, in a similar vein to what happens now?

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Something like that would work, I guess. Maybe increase the ammount of LTs and Bosses spawned, as well, to represent harder fights. Maybe the group stumbled into a meeting of the gang leaders or something =P Either way, ticking the stats up a tad per level and/or boosting LT/Boss spawns.

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I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".

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Right, so Zortel, my energy blaster, puts exploding ammunition rounds in her suit that doesn't fire bullets for more damage? Azure Arrow learns how do to fancy martial arts dragon strikes to make his arrows do more damage? My Psychic psychology student uses magical items and genetic alteration to become more adept at his powers?

I may be a roleplayer, but I don't let the game mechanic driven system dictate my characters.

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Exactly. Thats a game mechanic, a think *everyone* is stuck with, and so thats not really an issue.
What is the issue is the double standards to do with Capes and auras. And while enhancements dont MATTER (per se) as you cant see them, you sure can see auras and capes. Or the lack thereof...

[bold]Vanguard Base, Atlas[/bold]

The Chief's fingers were a blur over the keys, whole pages zipping across the screen faster than a human eye could cope with. He was searching, searching for anything that might link to the slaughterhouse in the Radio station...similar attacks, motives, reasons...anything.

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What I'd really like is an option at the end of the tutorial zone to pop back into the costume creator and fix anything I don't like before I go on to the game proper. By the time I've run around the tutorial, I've usually figured out if and how I want to tweak the costume and the sliders to get it just right.

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^ /Signed. And let us edit the godsdamned height slider! -fury-

I think I mentioned the mobs before, Spades, but I'll put it up again and try and clarify a bit.

Mobs would be the same as players, level-less. Using an version of the Rikti code, all minions would con white, lieutenants yellow and bosses orange. Red would be saved for EBs, Purple for AVs, and lower colours for underlings and summoneds such as the DE ones.

Now, say there is a 'Baseline' of stats. I think a good example of a medium Enemy is a Warrior. They would utilise the 'Baseline' stat, with maybe a bonus or two to say HP and attacks for Lieutenants and Bosses.

Hellions, for example, would use the Baseline stats but with minus modifiers, to reflect the fact their simply gang members, rather than trained fighters. The minions would still con white, but their actual stopping power in a fight would be less than that of a warrior minion.

Mobs such as Malta, Nemesis and Rikti, the High End enemies, would use the baseline stats but with better bonuses, such as to accuracy and resistance, and possibly HP. Again, minions would still con white, Lts yellow, etc. But it would be up to the Player to learn what they can realistically stand up. So, a player at the 'midway' point could possibly fight off a few Rikti minions, but if he tried to take on a proper mob he would end up placeplanting. As a player trained more powers and aqquited more bonuses/enhancements the fights would get easier. So, while a mob of Hellions might once have been quite tough, enhanced resistace/defence and damage would make the mobs much easier.

For PvP zones, it would be the same, picking enemies that were within the right range of powers. So low end enemies in the low zones, mid in mid and so on and so forth.

Come to the dark side...its all a lie, we DO have cake! Bwuahahaha!

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As I see it. Heroes below level 20 are trainee heroes at best. By the time they hit level 20 they have shown that they have the right stuff. They have shown that they are worthy to wear a cape he very icon of a superhero.


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This is the entire point. At present it is a 'given' in some books, that every hero before level 20 HAS to be a trainee, is inexeperienced, adn there is NO CHANCE THIS CAN BE ARGUED OR CHANGED.

Yes, im miffed at that, (not at you personally, Spade). What if it was an old hero who was coming back to fight crime, or someone from another dimension, or a time traveller, or anything like that? They might have worn a cape before, or might want one. And its DAMN sure that they couldnt be made to NOT wear one, as the City really cannot risk having yet more Villains going against it.

And the point is utterly and COMPLETELY moot for Villains. Some of them dont give two DAMNS what Recluse thinks. A prime example is Lord Atom, my rad/rad corruptor. He holds everyone on the planet in complete disregard, even himself most of the time, and I would really like to give him a cape to top off that classic Super Villain look. But I cant, as shoulder capes dont work for him and neither do the Valkyrie ones.

My point; Why should SOME be restricted when others arent, on a subject whose reasoning has been torn into so much confetti? Yes, there should be milestones, and achievements. But this is like saying that anyone who was born in Winter can instantly have the Winter themed parts, but anyone else has to slog to get them. Its a very similar thing, and makes about as much sense as the above example...

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It might well be the rumoured heal suppression and diminishing returns arena rollback option. *prays*

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Rumoured? Been on the Training Room since the 13th

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It's a crazy world when I get abused by a redname for reading the forums less than he does :<

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Crazy being a raging, crashing, glaringly horrible understatement

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I mean, it's not like it's going to imbalance anything, it's purely cosmetic.

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^ This.
Its all about choice. If people believe they should mark levels 20-30-w/e with an add on to their costume, so let them. But what about people that want to start with, for the sake of this argument a *full* shoulder cape which *isn't* a Valkyrie one? They don't have that option. If people are happy with the shoulder cape, and have it, they can choose it. If people are happy with the Valkyrie capes, and have them, they can choose them.

Arguments about canon cannot stand up here, being fair and a bit of a stickler myself. There too much contradiction for that anyway. Its down to the availability, and choice, and we should have that choice available, IMO.

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The level system is a time proven system for dealing with that problem. You can try to invent a new wheel or just use the existing one.

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PnP games manage fine and have been doing so for years. Traveller, a game that goes back about 30 years, had no levels, but was just as challenging as any other.

MMOs are largely stuck in the artificial world of D&D and it's mostly because increasing level gives an obvious feeling of progression through the game.

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I have played quite a few systems. With or without levels. They work fine so long as you have a competent GM running them. I shudder to try to implement them for a computer game. Especially one with PvP in it! Especially when I want to make it a nice balanced PvP system. Using levels is much easier and even then they manage to get it wrong.

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I dont see how it would be an different from the basic bones of PVP (with or without I12/13 )
A zone has a limit on the ammount of powers a player will have, say seven. That would start at the first learned power and then go up the 'levels', in other words which powers were taken first. Seeing as the pools dont count for power choices, maybe they would either need there own limit, or not be limited.

Seeing as players can enter PvP zones now with less powers than people who are lvling down to the zone, I dont see what the difference would be. Could be set up thus, assuming the build had a limit of 18 powers (for example)
1-5 powers
6-10 powers
11-14 powers
15-18 powers

Any inherent flaws Im missing there?

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Whilst nice in theory, I'm not entirely sure such a system would work in a Super hero game. By definition, a character is pretty much defined by their abilities and how they came by them, so I can't imagine why a fire blaster would want to forget how to shoot fire and suddenly shoot electricity instead.

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I never said change the powersets in respeccing. As is now, once chosen, sets should be permanant. Only power choices shouldnt have to be. And its not so much about forgetting an ability as utilising a power in a different way.

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The reason that villains don't wear capes until they hit 20 is simple. Lord Recluse said so. Are you going to argue to the man before you hit a comfortable level and got some allies? I doubt it.

Why are villains allowed to wear shoulder capes? Because the rules say nothing about shoulder capes and for some reason LR is obviously not disapproving of this little rebellion. Why can you wear Valkyrie style capes? Because someone is paying big bribes to allow that particular item to be worn. There is a reason you have to pay so much for that one.

See? Some simple reasonable explanations why this is allowed on the rogue islands based on the game lore and all.

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But that in term is assuming and in fact straightjacketing every starting Villain to agree with His Nibs. There may be people who want nothing to do with Recluse, or only want to steal from him/usurp him. For example, Lord Atom works for no one but himself, which I represent by choosing Burke as a contact. He couldnt give two hecks what his Lordship things, and will happily radiate anyone six ways from sunday who tries to stop him. The fact is, we are limited only by the level structure and the game engine when it comes to that.

Any and all arguments for the capes are null and void when you have to deal with some capes being available at lvl 1 and some available at lvl 20. Lack of consistancy, canon bending and generally irritating. For those who want there characters to still be learning, simply dont give them a cape until say lvl 20, or even lvl 30 if you dont want to. But for those of us who want the capes on our designed characters from the start, why should we be restricted like that?

(Not aimed full at you Spades, just a general point, based on that point. )

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This is a game. Games have goals, things you must work for. They even gave us gamelore of why things work like this. As a non rpg'er this is something i can appreciate. As an rpg'er this is a thing i can appreciate as well. After all, i am part of the coh universe and my hero or villain has to adhere to the rules of this universe.

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But, the goal is being superseded by a paid for expansion pack and, as I have said before, gamelore is not a good enough excuse for not doing something. It's too easy to change.

As a goal it is something that might keep a new player 'on the game' (so to speak) until they reach level 20. That is probably well within the free game time that they will get anyway, if they just stick to one character. After that, it just becomes a drudge to get to a certain level to see your hero/villain finally realised. If you are more interested in RP or the look of your character than playing then it is something that may seam like a really unattainable goal.

I just can't see a logical reason not to do this. The counter arguments don't outweigh the original position.

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^ This. I was going to comment, then ended up on a whole new game post >.>
But this sums it up beautifully.