TGIA_

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who complains about a rule that to break ties MoV is at some point used I apoligize. However, when that is the third method used for ranking and is a widely used and accepted way to decide tie breakers I fail to see the problem.. If it is good enough for World Cup Soccer I think it will suffice for an MMoRPG.

[/ QUOTE ]

how about using the amount of deaths your team got? it still has the same bearing on score, but it doesnt give you a incentive to run up the score against some new sg and make them feel bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

The results would be the exact same as they are now by that means, and I also disagree that it wouldnt give an incentive to run up the score. A dead blaster is one who cannot kill. The best defensive is sometimes an aggressive offense.

I havent bothered to read the 121 posts since I left on Friday, but my assumption from a quick skim and the large amount of email in my box people are very interested in the Esk vs JFaL match. Esk had agreed to fight JFaL and then logged off. It was at my discretion that I counted the match. JFaL was prepared to fight them and Esk had agreed to it, then they logged off, this is a forfeit and the match goes to JFaL.

Anyone who complains about a rule that to break ties MoV is at some point used I apoligize. However, when that is the third method used for ranking and is a widely used and accepted way to decide tie breakers I fail to see the problem.. If it is good enough for World Cup Soccer I think it will suffice for an MMoRPG.

No matter how you look at this, it does not matter. The beginning of a ladder is only to make sure the more skilled groups are at the top and the groups who need a little more practice are closer to the bottom so the scores of the initial ranking dont happen again and groups do not grow discouraged. Even so, I think we can all agree that if groups do grow discouraged by defeat then competition is not for them, it is the nature of PvP. If there is a problem amongst the top three groups the solution is simple, challenge those above you and use superior skill to take that rung from them. The ladder is set, do what you will with challenges.

For the time being make challenges here in this thread. On Monday I will get a better means of challenging, but atm Im going to be out of town this weekend. Have a great weekend and good job to everyone who has joined the ladder so far.

The results are in and the initial ladder rankings are as follows:

1. Justice for all League
2. Old School
3. Freak of Legend
4. Velocity
5. Esk
6. Hell Raisers
7. Statesman's Watch


For the groups who could not make it to the initial ranking matches you must challenge a group who is already ranked to join up. If you win you take the second to last place on the ladder, if you lose you create a new rung at the bottom and that spot becomes yours until you move up. (ie. if Whirligig challenged SW and won they would be the 7th ranked team while SW moves to 8th, if they were to lose they would take 8th... if they challenged Velocity the results would be the same according to if they won or lost)


I will talk with Ex about the possibility of an SG ladder section for the forums.

Any questions on the ranking I would be glad to discuss it with you, just send me a pm on the boards. I will not answer any questions in this thread about scoring.


*EDIT* When I did the ranking i calculated in the defeat FoL had over CE with their villains. I had over looked that that was a villain match and not a hero match. This leads to a three way tie according to victories at the top of the ladder. The new results are based on margin of victory. I apologize for the initial inaccuracies in my calculations. Any other questions please feel free to message me.

I would actually expect the first wave of transfers (to Infinity of course :P) to be a lot of lvl 50 fire/kins. First they will come and impregnate our PvE system and with time they will take over the server with lvl 50 PvP toons. If anyone is transferring to another server that is what I would suggest to do. I personally have little desire to level yet another toon to 50 so I can run through all the same story arcs over and over and over again. (They really need a vet rewards that would allow one to start at lvl 30 if you so desire, or at least 20)

We feel that a week is adequate time to prepare and we want to get the ladder set up as soon as possible. The initial rankings really arent a big deal, if you cannot attend you will be placed at the bottom of the ladder, and you can easily move up to your rightful place with this system.

Yes, if a team simply fails to show up you both take a hit. If this is the case it is more than likely going to hit everyone the same way and effectively cancel it out.

Sunday and Wednesday were chosen as they are usually the most populated nights.

Why would anyone want to move to Freedom for PvP? It is already over crowded to the point where it lags horribly, and if and when there is another double XP weekend good luck with that. To top it off the arena is always so dead there. They had no one show for their SMP while the other servers (except Virtue who failed to get more than a single group) had at least 3 and Infinity got 7 full teams to come out for it.

My mistake, I meant to say the 29th. Thanks Vince

To find where people will begin on the PvP Ladder we will be starting a round robin, this is where every group who has signed up will face one another. Initial ranking will be based first on win to loss ratio. Ties will be decided by who has beat whom. In an instance where that does not rectify the problem it will be based on margin of victory, and then on over all victories if mov still does not satisfy the problem. This is only for the initial ranking. We will begin this process on Sunday the 29th of July at 9 PM EST. It is requested that all groups who have signed up for the ladder be there. We will go until midnight. It is expected that SG Captains will set up their own matches. For initial ranking it is only 1 match, not 2 out of 3 so we can save time and get this ladder up as soon as possible. We will then meet up again on Wednesday August 1st at 9 PM EST going til midnight once again. It is expected that SG Captains will simply ask for matches over arena chat. Make sure you face every SG in the ladder on these two nights. If you do not face a group it will be counted as a loss for both groups. Also, all matches are to be reported to me. Please send the results of every match you have to me on the blue boards with score and who won. Both SG Captains must report these results to me so I can check for consistency. Any group who purposefully reports inaccurate results will be automatically placed at the bottom of the ladder.

The Groups who have signed up thus far with a roster are as follows:

JAL
Dark Revolution
Hell Raisers
Freaks
Criminal Empire
Kamikaze Typhoon

As stated above, you have two nights for a total of 6 hours to face each one of these groups one time, make sure you do so.

We have come up with a prize for whomever is at the top of the ladder on the first of every month. Ex has agreed to give out forum titles on the first of every month to the SG who has the top spot on the ladder at the first of every month. The title must be the same for everyone. The captain of the SG will present up to 3 titles they wish to have and Ex will pick the most appropriate one.

I have been contacted regarding some rules people wish to have added, I need every SG captain to respond here and give a yes or no to the rules. Please do not debate here on why, make another thread for that.

Amendment 1: If a group is inactive for more than two months they are to be removed from the ladder.

Amendment 2: Bar code teams are not to be permitted. (A bar code team is where a team has almost the exact same name as to make spiking nigh impossible. This issue has arose from the new ability to change ones name.)

Please respond as such:

Amendment 1: Yes/No

Amendment 2: Yes/No


If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at TGIA_ here on the blue boards.


*Edit was to show Sunday is the 29th.

To find where people will begin on the PvP Ladder we will be starting a round robin, this is where every group who has signed up will face one another. Initial ranking will be based first on win to loss ratio. Ties will be decided by who has beat whom. In an instance where that does not rectify the problem it will be based on margin of victory, and then on over all victories if mov still does not satisfy the problem. This is only for the initial ranking. We will begin this process on Sunday the 29th of July at 9 PM EST. It is requested that all groups who have signed up for the ladder be there. We will go until midnight. It is expected that SG Captains will set up their own matches. For initial ranking it is only 1 match, not 2 out of 3 so we can save time and get this ladder up as soon as possible. We will then meet up again on Wednesday August 1st at 9 PM EST going til midnight once again. It is expected that SG Captains will simply ask for matches over arena chat. Make sure you face every SG in the ladder on these two nights. If you do not face a group it will be counted as a loss for both groups. Also, all matches are to be reported to me. Please send the results of every match you have to me on the blue boards with score and who won. Both SG Captains must report these results to me so I can check for consistency. Any group who purposefully reports inaccurate results will be automatically placed at the bottom of the ladder.

The Groups who have signed up thus far with a roster are as follows:

Hell Raisers
JAL
Velocity
SW
Freaks
Old School
The End
Envy The Shadow King
Whirligig

As stated above, you have two nights for a total of 6 hours to face each one of these groups one time, make sure you do so.

We have come up with a prize for whomever is at the top of the ladder on the first of every month. Ex has agreed to give out forum titles on the first of every month to the SG who has the top spot on the ladder at the first of every month. The title must be the same for everyone. The captain of the SG will present up to 3 titles they wish to have and Ex will pick the most appropriate one.

I have been contacted regarding some rules people wish to have added, I need every SG captain to respond here and give a yes or no to the rules. Please do not debate here on why, make another thread for that.

Amendment 1: If a group is inactive for more than two months they are to be removed from the ladder.

Amendment 2: Bar code teams are not to be permitted. (A bar code team is where a team has almost the exact same name as to make spiking nigh impossible. This issue has arose from the new ability to change ones name.)

Please respond as such:

Amendment 1: Yes/No

Amendment 2: Yes/No


If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at TGIA_ here on the blue boards.




*Edit was to change date to July 29th

[ QUOTE ]
See, even the commitee doesn't like that damn cage map.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I am most definitely against the Monkey Cage, these rules are for the people by the people.

So think it is time to go ahead and call the CoP yet another dev failure?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you misunderstand my intentions with that data.

It was a direct response to Marut saying:
[ QUOTE ]
Right now, the PvP community really is a small portion of the playerbase, however vocal.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that the CoH PvP community is a fairly small one I believe it is due to the lack of attention it is given.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is still faulty reasoning — ignoring data at hand.

If the PVP community is big, you can say, "See? I told you it is big."

If the PVP community is small, you can say, "The data is wrong: the community is bigger than this, we're just being ignored."

Such a response ignores the possibility that maybe the PVP community appears small is because, possibly, it might be small. You've already decided upon the answer before you begin asking the question.

Write up a survey and conduct it honestly and professionally in-game. Disallow ballot-box stuffing. Be representative and thorough in your sampling. Know the answer. Don't guess. And most of all, don't ignore data you don't like.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still dont think you understand. I am saying the PvP Community is a small one; however, the statistics I provided was to illustrate that people love to PvP. I am saying that if PvP is given more attention then people wont come to the game play a couple months get fed up with the lack of dev support and leave. I even gave a link to show a very big well known PvP Guild who left for those reasons after staying less than a year. If you build it they will come, but if once it is built and you see something was done wrong and the stadium collapses and you dont fix it they wont stay. The proof is in the pudding, there are many PvP groups that have left this game for lack of dev support.

This isnt about people that already play CoX want to PvP they jsut dont because of the bugs. This is about people who come to the game and leave it due to bugs, this is about people who play other games not coming to CoX because they have heard of how buggy our PvP system is. No one likes having the arena crash 5 times in a row. No one likes being crashed out of base raids and their rig slowed to a crawl because of all the lag. No one likes the blatant inequalities in zone PvP. I doubt you need a survey to tell you that yes the arena crashes, bases are lag fests that crash people like mad, and there are huge inequalities between builds.

[ QUOTE ]
You have some very good points, but I would like to suggest that you don't try to shoot yourself in the foot with false premises and bad logic. The statements you have said here may or may not be true — you haven't defined your terms or cited sources — but what follows from them is just plain bad logic.
[ QUOTE ]
1. Well over half of all MMO players worldwide are playing on a server with open non-consensual PvP.
2. Well over 90% of all MMO players are playing a game that allows PvP.
3. There are more players playing pure PvP games than all MMO's combined.

[/ QUOTE ]
You could use this same logic to say, "Well over half of the people in the world use forks. Therefore, we should abolish chopsticks."

Or, "Most of the United States is white. Therefore, white people should be in charge of every committee, because that would best represent the interests of the majority."

PVP is very popular — in certain circumstances, in certain games, depending on implementation and environment and context. Chess is a highly popular sport but it cannot be used as an example to prove, ipso facto, that everybody who plays chess wants PVP in this game. Ditto Monopoly, Parcheesi, cribbage, Battlefield 1942, online gambling, backgammon, and the stock market. They may be considered PVP activities but it does not allow you to make statistical judgements about this population.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that PVP isn't popular. I'm saying that if you want to win arguments and convert people to your way of thinking, use airtight logic. At best this is just a guess, and at worse, arrogant presumption that PVP is the only way to do things. It's like saying, "The sky is blue, because if it were green you wouldn't know where to stop mowing." Correct conclusion, incorrect reasoning.

If you would like to best have a means of determining how popular PVP is here then I would advocate an in-game survey of some kind. That would allow you to draw the correct conclusions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstand my intentions with that data.

It was a direct response to Marut saying:
[ QUOTE ]
Right now, the PvP community really is a small portion of the playerbase, however vocal.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that the CoH PvP community is a fairly small one I believe it is due to the lack of attention it is given. The statistics are to illustrate that PvP is a huge deal to people. I think CoX PvP is incredible due to how dynamic and fast paced it is, it sure beats the 2D world of WoW. But that is just my opinion, and that is what most of the forums are littered with, individuals opinions, take it how you like.

[ QUOTE ]
There were always members of the committee who represented that viewpoint. Incursion and CZ from HVND, Fury_Flechete to name a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

Besides going to every single servers threads and looking at Rifts thread is there a PvPEC roster people can look at to see who is doing what in the PvPEC? I think the recent workings of Rift have helped a lot, finally starting to communicate with the community will lay rest to so much hear say and speculation.

[ QUOTE ]
Where I think the High End pvp'r loses out is in the lack of Arena events that can hypothtecially be planned due to the bugs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to say everyone agrees with you there. Beyond that I would have to say the PvP community has been one that has hurt itself more than anything through the elitist attitude many of us represent. Almost all of us are guilty of that and I am no exception, I have definetly had my words with people. The trouble with the internet is we can say what we want because we know we arent held responsible.


[ QUOTE ]
While I agree with most of what you are saying...I dont believe someone has to actually be a leet pvp'r to represent their views...For example there are many people who are advocates for woman's rights who are not women...alternative lifestyle rights who are not living an alternative lifestyle...Pro Choicers who have never or would never have an abortion.

I believe its more of a character issue than what type of player they are. Personally I dont want the best skilled player representing me.. I want the person who listens and treats people with respect even when they disagree. I want someone who is going to consider the community as whole not just their own intrests yet remaining an advocate for their brand of PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

While you dont have to be a woman to represent women rights you do have to be knowledgeable in the matter. When I say the PvP leet it is just the best word I could think of. I agree that you dont have to be the best PvPer in the game but you do have to PvP to know what you are talking about. Coaches dont play the game but they have, and they study it inside and out.


[ QUOTE ]
We do know that there has been at least one member of the PvP Committee that openly stated they HATE PvP, that makes no sense. Ive heard they were removed but for other reasons, who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

I finished that quote with who knows to illustrate that it may very well all be hear say. It was in response to posts that other people have made who were at one point a part of the community and from people telling me as such. Where there is smoke there is fire. This all goes back to the many posts I have made requesting better communication from the PvPEC. When comments like this are made on the forums they should be addressed as soon as someone in the PvPEC sees them. I think that is the direction Rift is going, while he is a man that cares little of politics, he seems to hate drama.

[ QUOTE ]
This is blowing my mind. How can people quote a hit/miss ratio that doesn't add up to 100%?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats simple: For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views.

Benjamin Franklin

I seem to be using that quote a lot lately. Anyways, the question posed is one where you are to put yourself in the shoes of the person facing the particular circumstances at hand. If you are the one trying to hit then you of course do not want to miss, and it seems many people think of this one far more than the one with defense. Everyone who plays CoH has experienced missing like crazy. Every time I roll a new toon I get frustrated with how much I miss. But, few people in this game have played a purely def based set such as Ice tank, pre 32 Stone tank, SR.... So many people dont realize how frustrating it is to be hit no matter what.

Let's address the issue of PvP vs PvE in MMos and how it is over looked in CoH because it is such a small community:

1. Well over half of all MMO players worldwide are playing on a server with open non-consensual PvP.
2. Well over 90% of all MMO players are playing a game that allows PvP.
3. There are more players playing pure PvP games than all MMO's combined.

One could argue that the overlooking of PvP is the reason that the PvP community is so small. Many guilds have come to this game in hopes of great PvP only to be let down by the development team. Here is one of the best examples imo. For Ex to say that NCSoft cant do anything about Cryptic fixing the PvP Bugs is crazy. It's like a contractor telling his client he cant do anything about how the drywallers he subbed out to do their job.



There are many problems with this committee. First off they are supposed to rep "us." Us being the entire community that PvPs. You wouldnt want your state senator to be from Iran. Would it have been so bad to have the committee be one of elected people? Do something like 3 people from every server elected for the people by the people. Also, since it seems that these are events that plan to endure the existance of CoH what about a term, such as 6 months. And what about term limits for high ranking individuals like the PvPEC Chair? What if we the people do not like the direction the committee is taking us? This is supposed to be an official committee, and as such the people should have a say. We know nothing of the actions being taken. We do know that there has been at least one member of the PvP Committee that openly stated they HATE PvP, that makes no sense. Ive heard they were removed but for other reasons, who knows.

As an outsider looking in it seems that the committee was made up from whoever sent in a message to Ex then she picked the people she wanted and left others out. From there it became people hand picked by others on the committee.

I vote open up the forums to us, dont gives us the ability to post in them but let us read them. This way we can see where the PvPEC is going and have a true view of what this official committee is doing. There is no need to be super secretive unless you feel you are doing something the community doesnt like and just want to hide it.

My fear is that the "PvP Elite" will be left in the dust because their skill is higher and therefore they can easily beat others that would be new to PvP and therefore some bias rule be put in to weaken them. I really dont know of anyone on the committee that represents the ideas of the people in this game who live to PvP.


For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views.

Benjamin Franklin

Now no matter what you are going to have these problems but it would be far better that their passions, prejudices, their error in opinion, their local interests, and selfish views were in line with ours, the people who are truly concerned with the future of PvP in this game.


One last thing. Genna how did you get the position as the PvPEC chair? What exactly is your resume for this? Ive personally never heard of you so Im wondering what exactly do these cross server events include that you ran. Also, what qualifies you to run a large unit in charge of so much? Did you go to a university and achieve some sort of leadership degree, perhaps a degree in organization? How old are you? I feel it is a valid question because a lvl of maturity comes with age and while all men are bias I feel with age people can sit aside their differences. What is your current occupation? Do you have a job where organization and leadership are paramount? I feel that all these questions are valid because you more than anyone on this committee represent us all, and I want to make sure that my interests are in the hands of someone who has a background to deal with these matters. That which isn't well administered is doomed to failure.