Synaesthetix

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Wow. You've found the weakness. It's a real shame that certain builds can't do that. Ever.


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Yeah you need to be a kinetic with Repel, or team with a sonic and get them to put repulsion on you. Or take whirlwind lol. Rubbish powers that no one ever takes but are actually good at keeping heavies off their feet.

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Air Sup works just as well (providing it connects, naturally), which is also available to anyone.

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Does it mean the MM are just staying really close so the Heavy gets the benefit of leadership?

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I guess so, but anyone with Leadership can stay close to their Heavy - I'm confused as to why MMs were singled out.

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Its not difficult to seperate someone from their heavy...

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Don't forget that Slows are also highly effective.

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Sort of slows my PVP down a little don't you think Metatron?

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Let's take this one step at a time:

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Last time I was in RV; there were Stalkers I couldn't see;

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This is no more a problem in RV than in any other zone - pack yellows if you absolutely definitely have to beat a Stalker. At least in RV you can occasionally trail stalkers by tracking via Heavy to their next location.

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Heroes afking with GP's,

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You are fond of your little word, aren't you?

Do you now consider Heavies to be a necessary PvP tool? I could have sworn you were arguing just before that they weren't - my faith in quantum mechanics is always renewed when I can observe one Weasel occupying two positions at the same time.

Speaking for myself, I've never required a Heavy to be able to engage in PvP in RV. People afking with Heavies can be a problem, and one that I think could be resolved with Blind's timer suggestion.

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Turrets in Alpha that could faceplant me in ten seconds

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Protip: Don't get that close to them.

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and Masterminds Leadershipping their GP's with Range.

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What does this even mean? "Leadershipping with Range"? Sounds like something you'd find in a Japanese medical surgery.

Explanation plix

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Hmmmm...this must be the 'ignore all damage and ignore all objectives' I must have heard so much about.

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I know it must be hard for you to wrap your head around, what with you coming from the Run Headlong Into +4 Heavy and Die school of thought.

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It's just I'd rather wanted to fight players in a PvP zone.

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I'd heard that Lucifer was hiring new advocates.

Okay, I'll bite - you can fight players in RV. Anyone who spends any time in RV (at least on Union, can't speak for the other servers) knows this - in fact, the main complaint I've heard on broadcast is that people are PvPing "too much", if you can credit it. It's not pure PvP, and if you want to fight in there you have to adapt yourself to the terrain and the dangers therein. If you cannot or will not make that change, then it's not for you.

I don't believe for one second that it's that difficult a change to make, though.

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We're not MEANT to be able to fight +4 mobs; but suddenly we have to.

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Really? Says who? 8-man team on Invincible; LRSF before the most recent changes - all situations where you would expect to be fighting +4s or greater, depending on your level relative to the group.

And you don't "have to" - you can quite happily ignore RV, and even when you're in there, you can quite happily ignore the Heavies.

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I'm in complete agreement with Hammerfall here. Teh Gankpuppies are daft because you're just really fighting with them.

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I'll say this again - if you plan on letting a Heavy do all your fighting for you, then you plan to fail. They are nowhere near invincible and it shouldn't be difficult for an average player to take them out, otherwise render them ineffective, or avoid them entirely. And - as you found out for yourself - a player with Heavy can still be an easy kill.

RV is a PvP zone with PvE elements, it is not pure PvP. Neither is Bloody Bay (PvE mobs, Shivan Shard reward, Res and Dam modifiers), nor Sirens Call (PvE mobs, set PvE spawns, PvE faction abilities available at certain times, Res and Dam modifiers), nor Warburg (PvE mobs, Nuke reward, Res and Dam modifiers). Everyone has managed to cope alongside the PvE elements in PvP zones so far, there's no reason RV should lose its unique identity simply because some players aren't skilled enough to deal with it.

I do like Blind's idea of timers on the Heavies though, it would make the zone more dynamic in less busy periods - although in periods of even moderate activity, Heavies tend to encounter "forced" despawns quite swiftly, so to say.

Oh God, we woke the Weasel. >_<

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Oh, are you saying that is necessary for me to team but not necessary for them to team?

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I'm saying everyone needs to play according to their level and AT limitations. If you are finding you can't take out X and Heavy on your own with heavy, then it's pretty obvious you'll need to either a) get better -or- b) team in order to defeat your foe. No?

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Personally I am incapable of laughing at other people's misfortune. Must be some genetic mutation or something. Therefore I don't like it being done to me.

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I already knew that you're a humourless ol' dog Hammer. I really don't see how you could possibly class being beaten by an NPC in a computer game as "other people's misfortune", though.

Serious business, indeed.

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To repeat the experience?

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I'd suggest trying not to repeat the experience personally, but each to their own.

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Seriously, exactly what are they going to learn about PVP with heavies that they can't without them?

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I imagine the initial lesson they'd learn is that even they might not stand a chance alone, they have a (slim) chance of parity with a heavy. Then I'd expect they'd learn that teaming is a really good idea because heavies alone are no guarantee of success. Finally/Ideally, I'd expect them to become better at PvP and see Heavies as optional, not a requirement.

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Do you really think having them is beneficial?

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When I'm outnumbered 4:1, yes? When I'm outmatching someone to the point of boredom, also yes.

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Theyd learn a shedload more if they had an experienced pvper IN THEIR TEAM rather than this stupid random kill generator.

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That may as be, but I don't think Cryptic have the ability to code "experienced PvPer" into the game for people to team with, nor do I believe that NCSoft have the resources to place an appointed "experienced pvper" in the zone for the same purpose. If experience has taught one thing, it's that people tend to stick with people they know in PvP zones - myself no exception - so this statement is pretty futile.

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Element of uncertainty and randomness have no place in my textbook.

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Then that's your problem, not a game problem.

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Gee, didnt you notice from my first post that I was teamed? How exactly is that going to prevent all of this from happening?

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I guess I was too busy laughing to pick up on it. And if you can't see how teamwork can help you get past a difficult situation - in PvP or otherwise - then I don't think I can really help illuminate you further.

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Did you consider the possibility that the fight might not be balanced if certain ATs are better Heavy-holders than others?

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The only AT that has a real playstyle advantage from base is the MM - who should have pet commands down as everyday routine. Seeing as you can easily macro/bind some commands up - or even drag and drop them into your tray if you're lazy - it's not that great an advantage, it just means adapting your playstyle. As far as buffing pets goes, Heroes have the distinct advantage in two ATs that can provide Heavy buffs (Defenders, Controllers) as opposed to one on Villains (Corruptors).

Personally, if I get into a fight when I have control of a Heavy, I just let the bugger do its own thing - I can do far more sustained and reliable damage/debuffs than it ever can.

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IANAD


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What is this?

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I Am Not A Dev.


Edit: Cookies for Stasis.

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In exactly what way? You think it is beneficial for 'those without much PVP experience' to be continually oneshotted so badly they have to ask what hit them?

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Are you talking about yourself here? I imagine most people, upon being killed by a Heavy - new or not - think "Damn Heavy" and then get up and go out again. It's that easy!

What I'm saying is that your average PvP newbie is not going to stand a chance against a decent PvPer at full-strength - i.e. level 50. (The other zones have level limitations which actually do serve to redress the balance, especially with specialised builds - I know that most of my toons are significantly weaker in Sirens than they are in RV, in relative terms.) However, the Heavies can do as much damage to a hardcore PvPer as they can a complete PvP newbie - the element of uncertainty and randomness helps to keep battles, if not evenly matched, at least varied.

Point in case: I was duoing in RV and came across 3 people who I don't believe were experienced PvPers - at least, the first few instances we came across them they barely managed to land more than a few hits on us before chewing floor. About 20 minutes later they had Heavy'd up, and managed to take out my partner and had me down to red HP before I took them down. Would they have been able to do that without Heavies? I believe not. Would the fights instead have been a complete floor-wiping? I believe so. Did the presence of Heavies and other NPCs make for a more interesting experience? I believe so.

If getting taken out by a Heavy really bothers you that much, don't go into RV - or at least, don't go in there alone. Given your past experiences, I'd suggest taking someone who can grab Vengeance off you.

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Awareness got nothing to do with it. To get kills I have to get close, and if those people arent moving far from their heavies theres not much chance.

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Yeah, and I have to get in close to get kills - or rather, to stay alive - with my Kin Corruptor, and as a Blaster, you have a shedload more potential damage than I do. Deal with it, learn when to press forward and when to pull back - this is a skill, and obviously one that you do not possess at the moment.

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If the damn things could destroy each other just as easily I wouldnt complain. But if I send my heavy in alone it gets decimated by the masterminds/brutes. IF I try to take out the owner im oneshotted. Explain where is the Player vs Player part in here?

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Player with Heavy vs Player with Heavy? Jeez, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever, maybe if we set a hundred supercomputers at this problem for a hundred years we might be able to resolve this immensely difficult question.

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Yeah? Then how come the LOWER level PvP zones don't have heavies? You'd think those are the places where new players learn pvp!

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IANAD, and I'd also point out that you get inexperienced PvPers at all levels.

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RV happens to be the biggest thorn on my side, every time I go there I am enraged beyond anything.

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Internet. Have you considered medical help?

This is a great post about the Tanker AT and I applaud you for posting it.

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Who hates heavies? Id like to have some PVP in RV sometimes like tonight in a team, having a fight with couple brutes, until bzzzt..click hospital. I mean whats the bloody point??!!!

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Personally, I like the challenge - you have to keep a high level of awareness at pretty much any time you're engaged in a fight, and be prepared for the worst case scenario and be able to get yourself out of it. I also like destroying someone's heavy whilst they watch from a safe distance.

It also helps to somewhat level the gap between those with PvP experience and those who lack it, to a degree, and also goes some way to even out the playing field when there are uneven numbers of heroes and villains - providing the heavies are in the right hands, of course.

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On top of that I think I use enough end for leadership toggles (which help the team a lot more than me running acrobatics), so I am already f****d when Transference misses. There is no need to make things even worse by adding another expensive toggle that achieves nothing that couldn´t be done with breakfrees.

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My Fire/Kin Corruptor is far more endurance-intensive than any Kin Defender, and she quite happily runs Tactics and Assault (though there's often no real need for Assault when the team are pretty much at the damage cap already) without any major problems - when Transference misses, all you have to do is pop a little blue inspiration, or take your foot off the gas for a few seconds (Hasten + Siphon Speed*2/3) means Transference is only ever a few seconds away).

With Acrobatics 2-slotted for EndRed, its endurance cost is lower than that of Hover - do you slot Hover for endurance reduction, at all? The total cost of running both CJ(0 EndRed)+Acro(2 EndRed) is about .03/tick more than running Hover(0 EndRed).

Freedom of movement, and not having to waste BFs on immobs and mob holds more than makes up for the cost of CJ>SJ>Acro, for me. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I know not everyone has the necessary dexterity to play that style - but it does work, and it's a more than viable option.

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Taking acrobatics for a kinetic is a wasted power slot IMO as it achieves little more than hover with some serious drawbacks: it is noticeably more expensive endu-wise than hover and without hover it can be very hard to position yourself for your kinetic powers (yes, you need the endurance from transference) as soon as you stack speed.

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I wouldn't build a Kin Defender (or Corruptor) without CJ>SJ>Acro. I've spent time playing about with Hover, but it only solves half the problem - you're still left completely vulnerable to Immobilise which can be as lethal as KB if you get stuck on the ground just out of Transfusion range. Add to that that you still suffer the 'spin' animation (however slight it is) when you do get hit with Knockback, and Hover just doesn't cut it for my money.

It's really not that difficult to move carefully with stacked Siphon Speed, it just takes a period of adjustment.

"Forgot?" A likely story.

I wanted to see how often I had you taunted as well.

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Was good fun again, some more new faces, I really look forward to Monday nights now

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Aye, agreed. I even relented on my usual distaste for duels and had a couple of 1v1s before I logged.

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Whilst not aware of what exactly was said (English is my one and only language, unless you count Australian of course!) it obviously touched a nerve with Sin.

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Knowing what was said, I don't think it's anything you could fairly get worked up about - especially given the context it was said in, and who it was said by. There's no reason why a baseraid between two old friends like OotCS and the PDs should have been anything but lighthearted, and I think for the larger part it was - it's a damn shame that one person's complete overreaction to a throwaway comment bind has not only soured the mood of the event, but also cost an SG their entire site and forums. I don't think I'm alone in hoping that there aren't any further repercussions resulting from this.

Edit: Well, at least one part of the damage has been fixed now.

Just for the sake of comparison, at level 50 my Stone/Stone Brute has 0 Damage enhancements slotted, and he can still keep over the regen rate of a standard AV when solo (from memory: Zenflower, Luminary, Silver Mantis, Valkyrie and Mynx.) He's pure PvE though, so it's much more important for him to be able to keep going than it is to hit the hardest he can.

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Specific cookie-cutter teams?

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You have to have a cookie-cutter build to take Vengeance now? Interesting viewpoint.

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Because it's fun, because it works.

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Chewing through purple insps in order to defeat X and Y might be fun for you, but there are those of us out there who don't need or want to have to resort to insp-popping to get the job done - and take it from me, you can certainly rush the last mission and win without insps. Each to their own.

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Pulling doesn't make sense and isn't fun. There's regular missions if you want to beat on one AV at a time.

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"Isn't fun" is a fairly subjective viewpoint, but I've learnt not to expect any sort of objectivity from your posts - just so you know for future reference, it's not a convincing argument.

As far as pulling goes - it makes perfect sense and provides a high degree of challenge. The entire purpose of pulling is to remove elements of a difficult scenario in order to vastly improve the odds in your team's favour; by definition, the Final 8 mission is the quintessential environment to attempt pulling. For the player attempting the pull, it's a great test of skill and ability - and a degree of luck, naturally. Not fun? Like I said, each to their own.

FYI, the best pulls in the RSF bring at least 2 or 3 Heroes.

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Brutes can handle it, doms/MM/cors are out of range.

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What are they doing out of range (other than chugging down insps), exactly? Except for Hero nukes et al, a team functions far more effectively in close proximity; separated teams lead to members getting isolated, and getting killed.

Only once have I ever attempted to MM from range in the RSF, and that once taught me that trying to stay out on the periphery is not a viable option if you wish to a) contribute and b) stay alive.

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You're talking about using Vengeance... which is exactly equal to purple insps...

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Vengeance is +Def +ToHit +Dam and +Heal, actually. It also requires that someone dies, which - at the last time I checked - wasn't the case with insps, on both points. It's also a powerset choice, not a little purple crutch.

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and pulling... which takes longer to set-up, is boring and can fail.

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All the runs I've completed by pulling have been markedly faster than the runs completed by rushing - that's not propaganda, that's my own experience. The set-up might take marginally longer (clearing what, one more Longbow spawn? ), but the time taken overall dips dramatically.

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- everyone has to go to a set point

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People generally have to assemble at a set point regardless, I don't consider that a spot 70 yards further away from the steps adds an inordinately long delay to the proceedings.

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- someone has to pull

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Which has already been decided before the last mission, and depending on the experience on the part of the puller, takes little to no time at all.

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- (assuming the pull worked) the AV has to come to the point where everyone is

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Which again, takes about 5-10 seconds - or 2 if it's Synapse.

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- everyone fights AV

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Everyone fights one AV whilst any few additionals are either ignored or taunted away. With minimal - if any - losses, everyone then turns on the next, and repeat until the pulled group are no more.

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- return to first step

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Everyone moves the 5 footsteps back out of LOS, and the puller selects a new target? Again, we're not talking about a time-intensive process, here.

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While a charge goes :
- pop lucks
- charge
- kill,

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Once more, there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the lands for the lack of a rolleyes emote on these forums.

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and every AV after the first one dies faster because the AoEs are lowering their health too

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Did you manage to get some special copy of CoV where the Final 8 stand in a neat little group and let you AoE them? I ask because in my experience they tend not to group up - a few will concentrate on the melee toons, and any other Heroes that happen to be hit by these almighty AoEs will quickly turn their focus onto the squishy AoE-caster, and despatch them in a few shots if they're stood on the perimeter of the group - no matter how many purples they've got in their pocket.

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Even if you were on a team without AoEs (highly unlikely),

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Given that most of the attacks available in CoV are single-target, why do you consider this 'unlikely'? The few bits of splash-damage here and there are not really worth counting on, and certainly don't weaken the Heroes to any real degree - especially when a decent proportion of those who are more likely to be hit by them have Overload-type-powers that don't kick in until 25% HP-or-so.

Even playing Bots/Dark in the last mission, a powerset that excels at AoE damage, I rarely found that Rushing the Final 8 played to my strengths. The most splashback damage that was ever done was to knock about 10% from Citadel, and my bots were systematically taken apart for their troubles - loose aggro sinks ships.

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you don't magically get a +500% damage boost because you pulled, it seems quite obvious you'll kill faster if all you do is fighting as opposed to pull - fight - pull - fight.

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You kill faster if you're all focusing on one opponent. You kill faster if you're all upright. You kill faster if you're not trying to heal and debuff and rebuff whilst still trying to maintain a high damage output. Prolonged fighting exhausts reserves, and in the case of stray aggro or an unlucky hit, can lead to critical failure - 2 teammates dropping against 3 Heroes at the wrong time can still be turned around; 2 teammates dropping unexpectedly against 8 Heroes can lead to a wipe.

Trekking back from hospital takes time too.

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Everyone has 20 insps slots. Why WOULDN'T you use insps? That's crazy. The game is balanced around inspirations.

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I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't use Insps, but I would consider that having to take multiple insps over an extended period - to the point that you consider this to be a good strategy and not only employ it regularly, but advocate it to others openly - demonstrates a deficiency in your skill or tactics.

The first time I ran the RSF, I popped a whole bag of insps, of all different colours. After a few runs, I had to buy more Insp collectors for our VG, as the RSF (and last mission especially) had proven to be such a good source of top-tier inspirations. By approaching the last mission without the "must take 20 purple insps: F1, F1, F1, F1; F2, F2, F2, F2; F3, F3, etc" mindset, you get a far greater challenge; myself, I find challenge to be fun. Again, each to their own.

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- Less damage

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Stalkers do less damage than Brutes? This must be why Brutes are so reviled and despised in the PvP Zones, for their overwhelming burst damage, amirite?

Generally: Brutes do more damage over extended periods, Stalkers do better burst damage - depending on sets, of course. In a situation where you're only dealing with 1-3 Heroes, it's not too difficult for Stalkers to maintain constant damage and stay alive.

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- Less HP

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I'e never found this to be an issue, seeing as you don't expect the Stalker to tank the Hero. If you do, this may be where you're going wrong.

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- Less resistance (unless DA)

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In small groups of heroes, Stalkers won't be taking enough damage for this to matter - any damage taken should quickly be healed back by the melee healing blanket. I've heard a crazy rumour that certain Corruptor sets have res shields, you might not be aware of this and might consider looking into it?

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- Less aggro control

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Not all Brutes are built to hold aggro, much less can hold aggro from multiple Heroes. Do all the Brutes you do the RSF with have to be specced for aggro control? What's that noise? Could it be the Cookie-Cutter Train choo-chooing along the tracks?

As far as Stalkers' worth vs. Brutes' worth - I've never stated that Stalkers are better than Brutes for the RSF, so please don't try to put arguments into my mouth. I have said that there is a useful role for Stalkers to play in the SF; just because you don't appreciate that role does not cause it to cease existing. Tactics come down to team composition: if you have a team that works better with one strategy, you take that strategy. Undervaluing an AT because you'd rather blunder headfirst in a purple haze seems extremely limiting.

My Fluffy is 1 Acc, 3 Recharge, 2 To Hit Debuff.

I opted not to go for Heals or Holds, because he only uses those once in an attack chain - however, he's constantly debuffing to hit. My own Twilight Grasp is also usually more than enough to cover any healing requirements, and most foes are often dead before becoming unheld. The only other slotting I'd consider would be 1 Acc, 3 Rec, 2 ImmobDur - for AV fights.

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Many stalkers played on my RSF teams, those who don't kite always die at least once, sometimes more, from the AoEs. Which doesn't mean they're useless, but they're not as useful as a Brute.

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Unless someone on the team has Vengeance, in which case the occasional death could prove a great tactical advantage.

It does beg the question, why are you plunging straight into melee with all 8 FP members? That amount of AoEs will likely take out more than just the Stalker. So far as kiting goes, I've always found it best (with certain exceptions) for the team to pick a target and huddle around and form a healing blanket, so that you're only ever a fraction of a second away from a heal - kiting, for whichever AT, usually leads to isolation from the main group, and a swift death from any loose aggro. Back to my earlier point, if someone manages to 'plant in the healing blanket, then it's almost certain that everyone will be in range for Vengeance.

From my experiences, and I appreciate that they may well differ to anyone else's, I find it's best to shut off your self-preservation instincts before the last mission of the RSF - fighting may certainly get you killed, but flight will get you killed a lot more swiftly.

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After than that... I have a hard time believing experienced players can't beat at least one 53 AV in 5mn (the time 5x4 purple insps last), regardless of team set-up.

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I have a hard time believing that experienced players feel they need 20 purple insps to do a mission that can be completed much more effectively in another manner, but them's the breaks.

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It wasn't just the fact that the heroes were lvl 54 that was the problem and forced teams into pulling, it was the insane regen rate that they had post I7.

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Both 'cel and I were part of the first team to complete the RSF on Union - that would be after the huge AV buff, and before the subsequent nerf. The team was not optimal in any way (two MMs and a stalker for one thing, with the majority of the team never having played together), and we completed the RSF not by pulling, but by charging headlong into the FP with a few nukes. Pulling was never the "only" way to do it - but every run after that that was completed by pulling was markedly faster than those completed by rushing.

I think the RSF is a lot easier these days - which is good, and which is bad. The first incarnation of the RSF forced everyone to play out of their skin to complete it; subsequent watering-down has made the RSF more accessible to more people, but reduced the challenge accordingly. Que sera sera.

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Isn't that how everyone uses it? Other than AV fights or when the rest of the team is dead the only time I use Elude is for End.

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I'd have thought so, but I've seen people use it: a) as soon as they take any damage; b) at the start of a mission; c) when in the middle of a corridor for no particular reason. O_o

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From the sounds of things you'll actually be a usefull brute to team with for normal missions post 38, where as I found that unless you had a kin most other /stone brutes slowed the pace of the game down (and made things really frustrating for my dominator. Slow pace = no domination)

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I've had similar experiences in both CoH and CoV, but it's far more frustrating in CoV where I find you get used to a much faster pace.