Steampunkette

Or he could be lying about why they were killed. He could be trying to play on the sympathies of the gullible to get his way. Y'know, like how Cleopatra lies to every Responsible Loyalist she sees and tries to get them killed.

It's more likely that he or his family or all involved were working with the Wardens or Crusaders and got into trouble for it.

-Rachel-

Oooo... Almost ... but not quite. It says nothing about "Mass Murder" or whether anyone committed a crime or not. It doesn't say "Innocent Souls" It specifically says "Enemies of the State" and really, what does it matter if the execution chamber is underground or in the Behavioral Facility?

That said, I don't support the Death Penalty except in extreme cases, in reality.

Agreed.

Brutality is not torture. Brutality can be anything from backhanding a person to not feeding them a meal (depending on who you ask).

THAT has a bit more "Torture" to it. The fingernails part, at least. Again, Backhanding someone isn't Torture, it's Brutality. The difference is that Torture is designed to inflict long lasting physical and psychological pain. Hitting someone is a short-term pain, so long as it's not done -too- often or in a really nasty way.

That said, a good punch can knock out teeth and cause some bleeding or, if done in the right place at the wrong time, can cause someone to evacuate...

The fingernails, though, indicate torture for certain. Congratulations! One our of three ain't bad!

Eh.. Could be their off-duty lounge for all you know. It's a hint at -something- below, but not a solid piece of evidence.

Before anyone accuses me of being a vicious jackbooted thug: I do not support police brutality. But i do understand the difference between punching someone and putting them on the rack for a few hours. I hope you all do, too.

-Rachel-

Oh, I definitely agree with this, one hundred and twenty percent!

However that's not what Golden Cole and others fling up. They are trying to convince people, through an appeal to emotion, that -all- or at least -most- the people who were killed were innocent of any crime. It's entirely possible, even likely, that -some- of the people executed were innocent.... But with a Psychic police force (which is already a factor in the equation) the likelihood of that happening is reduced, maybe not as much as it would be with psychics -and- a fair and public trial... But reduced.

It's far more likely that anyone executed by the government either had ties to terrorists/criminals/whatever or -was- a terrorist/criminal/whatever than the idea that people are rounded up at random to be slaughtered for no reason other than to kill them.

Is that fair to say?

-Rachel-

Wow... Now -that- is a narcissism I wasn't expecting! Congratulations, Golden Cole! you've managed to make me lose a little more respect for you! I wasn't sure that was possible.

But yeah... Martial Law, Military State, still in a state of emergency. Plenty of reasons to explain why he hasn't given up power, yet. And good ones, too! Though it doesn't excuse the Seer program at all. I -think- it could excuse the executions and imprisonments, though. Seeing as how those people were likely as not seditious or treasonous, and we've no word on their crimes except in a handful of cases where the person telling the tale has plenty of reason to lie.

Occam's Razor dictates that Cole orders the execution of those who are threats to Praetoria, not random people.

And the ghouls were an attempt to create super-soldiers which were meant to protect the people. Hell, it's just as likely that the results of the first experiment held together well and a company or two of men were injected, only to find out that not all reacted to the chemical mixtures in the same way... And of course we do both animal and human trials on various drugs and performance enhancers in the real world.

The multiple-company theory also explains why some of them are wearing color-coded jumpsuits: Different batches of test subjects. Add in the whole business about cloning Vasilikos and you've got a limitless number of test subjects. Not a terribly ethical situation, but do we -really- expect Neuron to be ethical?

Though... when you add in the cloning tech being used by Neuron it's feasible that Cole would only know about the first batch or two of ghoulish test subjects... and the rest could be easily hidden by sweeping the financials into different projects. It's completely plausible that Cole has deny-ability over -most- of what the Praetors are doing... Interesting thought, that.

Oh! And before I forget!

I did promise, After all!

-Rachel-

If by "Stiff Armers" you mean Hamidon and by "Crush the Spirit" you mean eat pretty much everyone and leave the remaining citizens in a huddled mass looking for someone, anyone to save them...

I'm afraid you'd still be quite wrong.

America in that dimension was dead before it launched the second nuclear weapon at it's own soil.

-Rachel-

And because of that, all people are Praetorians. Though what he's referring to is something different.

In some nations citizenship isn't based on where you were born or who your parents were, but some other variable. Like Government or Military Service that must be completed to become a full-fledged Citizen. Until you complete it you're a Civilian living in that nation.

-Rachel-

This. I'm willing to give up some measure of Freedom when evil is outside my door, pounding on the walls, trying to get in. When there are terrorist cells blowing up parts of my city, I'll gladly fling myself into the restrictions of Martial Law for the safety it provides. Once things settle down I'll want those freedoms back, mind you...

But in Praetoria the danger is -still- prevalent. With the Syndicate, the Destroyers, and just beyond the sonic barriers: The Devoured. Martial Law is still in effect. And then the Destroyers and the Syndicate and the resistance all pop out of the woodwork? Come on. You can't tell me the US of A in all it's superiority wouldn't shut down EVERYTHING if terrorist cells were active in the capital and had access to nuclear materials, flinging cars around, or psychic power.

Also this.

Actually I'm trying to make sure people who walk into the thread don't mistake silence for assent to her stupidity. And rather than actually arguing against her (impossible, since she won't actually -say- anything most of the time) I'm arguing against her position for everyone else who wanders in the thread to see.

-Rachel-

Probably pretty Brutal.

Remember, there are multiple "Praetoria" cities dotted across the globe, where Cole's rule is still law (though they likely have their own Praetors who are potentially less insane than the ones in the Capital).

If you're out in the Jungles for any real length of time you'll probably be overtaken by the Will of the Earth and turn into a devoured. But if the Resistance actually has a refugee city somewhere then it's a defensible position they could reinforce and eventually expand. Though they'd still need a clean water source which isn't contaminated by the DE.

I think it's far more likely people smuggled out of the capital are just taken to a different Praetorian city, where the Praetors are more lenient and aren't so oppressive.

-Rachel-

I'm not shrieking praise at Cole. he's a monster and so are his oligarchs. that doesn't change the fact that America is dead on Praetorian Earth and the Resistance has the Option to leave (as shown by their "Smuggling" of people out of the city) but choose, instead, to intentionally kill innocent civilians, or get themselves killed.

Leave Praetoria without a backward glance. Maybe eventually set up peace-talks with Cole's Regime to get other people out, later. So long as you live peaceably and publicly alongside Praetoria he won't have the option to take you out while maintaining his facade of being a decent person to the populace.

-Rachel-

You asked for it!

The next generation of people have already been born in Praetoria. It is now Praetoria, not America. By your logic all Americans are actually British, since America is just a bunch of British Colonies that renamed themselves.

-Rachel-

If it were really America they wouldn't have nuked their own cities trying to kill an enemy that didn't die the first time they nuked it.

I will continue re-quoting that piece of text every time you say "But Amurrica!" or some variation of the same.

-Rachel-

You're still hung up on "It's America!" aren't you?

America, in that world, is gone. Dead. Finito. Kaput. Shin. Ashes.

Passed on. America is no more. It has ceased to be. It is expired and gone off to meet it's maker. Bereft of Life, it Rests in Peace. If you weren't nailing it up to the wall it would be pushing up the daisies. The legislative processes are history. It's off the Twig, it's kicked the bucket. It has shuffled off the mortal coil and joined the bleeding choir invisible.

America is an Ex-Nation.

The land USED to be America in much the same way most of Europe and Asia and even parts of Africa were once part of Rome or Germany. Now it is Praetoria.

-Rachel-

Oh, Definitely! I'd love that!

I'd especially love it if, with the removal of the Resistance, most of the evil stuff going on in Praetoria just -stopped- dead in it's tracks. Except the fighting/arrest/murder of the Syndicate criminals, of course.

No more Seers, no more Mother Mayhem, no more invasion of Primal Earth. All the evil just -stopped-.

Why? because the main and driving force of the oppressive attacks was removed when the Resistance went off to found their own nation in a different part of what was once "Amurrica!"

-Rachel-

Bwah...? Did you even check out the link to the page where it explained how, to anyone with a basic understanding of how arguments work, your "argument" was invalid as a logical fallacy?

You did not state facts or even give an opinion. You basically shouted "Amurrica!" and trundled off with your usual epileptic smileyface.

-Rachel-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl No it isn't - it's still America - the people are still Americans, with the same basic American values of freedom - that's why there's such a big Resistance movement. Tyrant can call it Praetoria, Disneyland, the Fourth Reich - whatever he likes - it's still America, and he's crushing the American people under his fascist dictatorship.

This does not constitute an argument.

-Rachel-