Spiritwrath

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The new Tanker catchphrase is "Keep me alive, and I'll keep (17 of) them off you" as opposed to "Stay back here and start Blasting when I say go."

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Wow, that's a heroic catch phrase.

I like the Blaster version better.

"Keep me alive, and they will all be defeated nice and fast."

While Tom is sort of trying to pat his own back and say he was "right all along," and that rankles a bit, the state of the tanker is currently weak, basically Stone or scrank.

Each AT is supposed to have their own "flavor" and non-stone tanks are now tofu. No real flavor of their own, and just add some bulk to the team in for bigger spawns. Yes a tank can mix it up some, and can save a squishy with the occasional well timed taunt or attack, but right now they are blaster decoy or low damage scrapper.

I expect a lot of stone tanks, and a fair number of other tanks that hang up their capes around level 30-40. Lower levels are a bit deceptive, because AT differentiation isn't as obvious. It is kind of sad, since the way the game is set up, people don't realize what they are in for until they have invested a fair amount of time.

I expect that tankers will be reviewed again, and likely improved from where they are. I also fear some for Stone now, as last tank standing, since it is clear that Stone CAN take the beating that other tanks simply can't.

Looking for a role now, probably your best bet as non-stone is as Blaster taunt bot. Given the decrease in alpha strike capability that blasters have gotten with ED, they have a greater need for someone to deal with the aggro they generate.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is enough of a role for an AT.

I didn't want to go there.

The thing is, that seems to be what States' expects to be the role of the AT. If you are doing more, then the AT may need to be taken down some more.

How much is enough, and what should you expect. Apparently the contribution that Statesman's Tank made was sufficient to meet expectations.

If that is the case, then the question becomes, is it worth playing a character that contributes that much (little)?

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Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank.

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Skill? Taking taunt and provoke and spamming them isn't really much skill. But more importantly, with the hard aggro cap, it simply can't be done.

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As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.


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Come to the tankers aid because the tanker's damage output isn't serious enough to finish what he is holding very fast, or because the tanker needs that assistance because they would be defeated otherwise.

Right now Granite Tankers are the only tanks that contribute something unique. It's not a whole lot of fun for many people, but it is valuable, and in certain scenarios (AV's) difficult to replicate. The plan with an AV when a stoner around is clear. The plan with an AV given other team compositions isn't as clear. In fact, when a Granite is around, everyone knows what the plan is. When any other tank is around, well, when I see one, I am perfectly fine giving them a little deference, but I know that really they aren't doing much. But hey, if they are having fun, I'm not going to burst their bubble.

Now, I have seen some interesting playstyles for Invuln tankers now. But it doesn't mean they are using their primaries. Ding Dong Ditch is common, the tanker taunts, and runs around a corner which is the designated fire zone for the rest of the team. Taunt and hold is another, the tanker taunts the important enemies while other players keep the tauntee, so yes, the tanker is contributing, and in some odd situations can be very useful (the ding dong ditch can be pretty effective against some AV's), it's not something that a scrapper couldn't do if they decided to build themselves for that, which was a whole other problem with tankers/scrappers before. In a pinch, a scrapper is a fine tank with some support. In a pinch, a tanker is a sub-par scrapper with a lot of support.

You forgot damage debuffed (I forgot what the percentage damage debuff is in Granite though).

You forgot damage debuffed (I forgot what the percentage damage debuff is in Granite though).

Well, so far you could still be a Stone Tank. There are downsides, but you still get that "Come on, hit me, hit me again, it tickles" feeling when you port right into the middle of that spawn and yell out your "yo mama" jokes.

Only question now, is will Stone face the nerf bat next?

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SpiritWraith, can a Stone tank hit DR cap solo with his powers as they are now including the Fighting Pool but not counting Granite Armor?


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Not a numbers guy here, so honestly not sure. You'd be going stone skin, rock armor, tough, and sufficiently slotted maybe, but honestly I doubt it. The analysis I have seen done so far is that Pre Granite, Stone is worse off than Invulnerability, but post Granite their "glory" remains.

Don't know what to say abou the how often will you die question. I'd probably say less often, because it is easier to slowly grind down bosses, but the xp over time is so much less as a tanker that the Scrapper is far and away the better deal (but then, it is the "solo" AT).

In a team, I find that my stone tank pre Granite dies a lot MORE often than my scrappers, mainly because of rooted. When a stone tank gets into a fight, getting out is tricky, especially since teleport isn't very user friendly indoors, assuming you took teleport at all).

Post Granite of course, you are a the aggro magnet wall, and I have taunt, provoke, and pots to maximize my aggro drawing abilities. With the new cap, I'm just not sure what my best model is for drawing aggro.

Solo though, while I can handle invinicible, as a Stone/Ice, it takes forever to arrest bosses. I can live with that, since my character really is designed for a duo with a Kheldian. Blasters of course love me now too, but my uber defensiveness has a price, and the main price is a huge degradation in solo capability.

You do realize that this is only the start of a test.

Did the team succeed? Yes.

Did the team try working things with the tanker simply not getting involved?

If so, was there any degradation in performance?

With two controllers, (and a Kin controller at that) was aggro management much of an issue?

If the Tank was replaced with any other AT, would things have gone fast/safer?

Personally, I think a non-stone tank in a team is just kind of there, not really adding, but not a big detriment either.

Problem I have with the state of tankers right now is that I just don't think they contribute as much as most other AT's except in very specific circumstances.

Hate to say it Tom, my advice is Stone, or scrapper/brute.

Stone with Granite can perform the meatshield role that is the MMO model.

As any other tank, you will be somewhat tougher than a scrapper, but significantly overshadowed when it comes to damge output, and the game is about damage output.

Avoid Mace as a secondary, although with ED in place it isn't quite as gimp as it used to be, since it is endurance friendly.

You will be able to handle most alpha strikes, even in larger teams, but pulling is almost always safer. Rushing in against an 8 man spawn without unstoppable or Granite is generally a dangerous proposition. If the team isn't backing you up right away, and sometimes if it is, expect to kiss dirt.

Since your res caps are higher than any other character, orange inspires are your friend, and so are defenders. Don't be shy about using inspires, but don't just blow them all at once either. Orange, Purple (luck, not , and finally green are your food.

You can appear pretty impressive in short bursts using inspires, but remember the difference between Stone and other tankers. Stone has very poor mobility, and has no choice but to stand and take it. Other tankers are able to move, and need to take advantage of that fact whenever possible. and the team needs to understand that as well. In/Out, like duck mating should be the play, take the alpha, run back, let the team beat on things and then go back in to help out squishies as appropriate.

Probably more than any other AT, your playstyle will be dictated by team composition.

I can't recommend a tank at this point (well, maybe a stoner, but you had better be used to being slow and living on the ground, and being nothing but a target in PVP, a tough target, but just a target), but if you want to play one as the game stands now, that's my 2 influence.

sigh.

There are changes currently on test. Punch-Voke has been implemented. The increasing damage over time was apparently a problem, and while Statesman made some comments regarding a different "more comic booky" solution on the damage problem, what appears to be instuted for Tankers is a higher damage cap, and a 10% increase in base damage for all secondaries.

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst invulnerability Tankers (and Scrappers), but that seems to have settled down. Those that were most upset by the changes have had their say.

We'll see what happens when things go live. That should be in early January according to the last I heard.

Yeah, Statesman says a lot of things. I was wondering if it was even up on test yet.

Taking away superspeed bonus to Granite will hurt a LOT, almost to the point of making the Speed power pool useless, since only one power will benefit Granite. Can't fly, can't run, can't jump, Stoners will be forced into tele-tank status. I can live with that, but now when I look at power pools, I see two that are valuable. Teleport, and fitness, and fitness is really only about Stamina, and Teleport is really about Teleport self.

I rather doubt that a slight reduction in the movement penalty will be counterbalancing.

But what really irks me is that at this stage power pools are only valuable for one power in them. Hasen, with Granite just isn't all that valuable, particularly for a solo player. From a teaming perspective, I guess I could take Medicine and Stealth. Heck, I could still take the Presence pool, so I have some more options to cycle through while slowed by Granite.


As for rooted being a lame version of Integration, sure looks that way, doesn't it? Given that the trend is to low level mobile mezz protection though, I expect rooted to lose its rooted effect (interestingly enough, making teleport less valuable). I don't know what they'll call it though. Probably in keeping with the look of Stone Armor, they could call it "Poo Brains."

Your brains become composed of the same material as your armor, giving you virtual immunity to status effects, and your effective healing rate increases because damage to you doesn't register because of your poo brain.

Personally, I don't go on test (not my thing), but can someone with GA check to see if super speed will continue to work when GA is active? If that is taken away, especially before stacking armor is instituted, it's going to be a long evaluation to decide how to handle the respec.

Will it be Brie?

You know, as a Stone Tanker, I feel that Granite slotted up WAS the answer to my needs. Yes, I need hasten, but since Super Speed does function with Granite, I have never had the party waiting for me. I have found that Mud Pots are sufficient to keep a lot of aggro on me (Pots damage ticks are not slowed down by Granite).

Personally, I don't have Provoke, and really no one seems to notice. With Super Speed and Teleport, and mud pots, I can keep a lot of aggro on me as it is.

Interestingly enough, the idea that Stoners can't herd is pretty silly. Most enemies will give chase, and with superspeed I can pull lots and lots of enemies.

As for myself, at level 38, I don't have provoke, and people don't mind. What it really means is that the AOE blasters have to be careful, or that there is room for a controller, or heavens forfend, another tanker.

Getting to the idea of Psi. This is exactly the situation that ANOTHER TANKER is useful for. Me, I like to team with other tankers, but there is this philosophy that every team should there will be ONLY ONE Tanker, and that really doesn't have to be the case.

Stamina everyone is forced to get. Teleport is pretty much a must have early on, but once you get granite, teleport is optional, and can be re-specced out. I keep it myself because I like vertical movement. Superspeed and hasten though are MUST HAVE. It looks like the Presence Pool is about to become optional, so you get two pool options if you really want, but what the heck do you WANT?

I am just starting to see more and more psi, but right now there is no doubt that I am in more fear of things that hit my end bar than anything else (and Carnie bosses do that, joy). 0 end means 0 toggles no matter how you slice it, and that means all defense goes bye-bye, including mezz defense.

I respect the level 49 stoner tag, but level 36 was where I had a HUGE turnaround.

Thing is, there are so few stoners, and it is a schlep to the "promised land," and I suspect that the first implementation of stacking armors are really going to be a disappointment, rather than a cause for joy.

We'll see.

Rooted and Rock Armor and Earth's Embrace is an impressive defense set though, particularly because of the increased healing rate. It's also and endurance suck.

However, while I understand the desire to have mobile mezz protection, if there is one set that by it's very flavor should have rooted effects, it should be stone. Having said that, lowering the end cost (or giving back the end regeneration that it had once upon a time) would be my vote for improving Rooted.

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1. Holy ressurrection posts, Batman!

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Well, hopefully it got a dev's attention

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This thread is basically dead until we get another update from the Dev team.

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Yup yup, pretty much a dead thread because the Devs haven't given us anything more with regards to this since this thread was last posted to by States. Closes we have are some comments from Stratics.

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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):

1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.

So - here's the solution we're going to try internally. We went through a ton of possible solutions, and we weighed each one against how well they answered the three points above as well as how long it would take to get done.

1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....

2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.

Of course, the thought in your minds must be....WHEN?...I'm afraid I don't know. First, we need some code for this. Then we've got to test it thoroughly. Finally, it'll go on the Test Server for awhile to gather data and impressions. This is going to take some time; but I thought you'd like to know at least where we're going, even though we don't know when we'll get there.

Feel free to comment!

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So, just where do Tankers stand now?

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You speak of dumbing down tankers. Sure it does, but I don't personly like the idea of having to pick up a power pool just to perform my main function though. There certainly are diffrent(and MAYBE better) ways to fix that, but I think this is better than nothing.

Same goes with the damage increase.. Better than nothing at all. I personly like both changes just fine. So I will keep rejoiceing!

*Performs the dance of joy*


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Well, finding cause to rejoice is a good thing, and at the very least it keeps you from appearing to crumudgeonly. Yes, things are getting a little better for Tankers, and will get better over time (assuming everything else stays the same), but for me it is time for the dance of confusion. Picking up a power pool was just plain bogus, and this alleviates that to some degree, at least with this, you can hold the aggro of a group you are in the midst of ASSUMING YOU WANT IT. If you DON'T want all the aggro, your only choice is to NOT ATTACK, putting you back in the punching bag role. My Tanker has Taunt for two reasons. It allows for more accurate aggro control, and it isn't a power pool. The downside is that I am less likely to party with an AOE Blaster, who needs a provoke bot a lot more. Others are willing to adjust accordingly in my experience. Putting Provoke into the Tanker powerset would have been a better solution than this IMHO, but we'll see how it works out. From the way it sounds, it's not even at the coding stage, much less the testing stage, so it can cange a lot between now and then.

And yes, the Damage Increase is welcome, but the Tanker/Scrapper build discrepancy remains.

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Oh! Yes.. the real reason scrappers and tanks can't both use any melee and defense set. States claims it is to perserve AT flavor, but I say it is because there would no longer be any reason to play a tank if both sets could use any power combo. Even if it is for flavor.. the fact that there would no longer be tankers around(well hardly any) speaks volumes about what is wrong.

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Agreed, but worse, the documentation in game and online still doesn't admit this. I expect that new subscribership is tapering off, so it's not a big deal, but if you come to this game new, and you expect that the Scrapper will feel overshadowed by your Tanker, well the joke is on you Tanker.

I just continue to feel that the Tanker AT, and more and more I feel that the entire GAME, is still in Beta Testing, and we are really paying to Beta Test.

As long as it's fun, that's fine, but bugs and imbalances = less fun. Implementing these proposals are likely to lead to more bugs and imbalances. We'll see how it goes.

When I first read these proposed changes, I have to say that I felt positively on them, but I also had some reservations. The first thing that really disturbed me was the idea that this reinforced my belief that the game was still in Beta Testing, even though it is technically live. Since the changes are still basically proposals, the road to implementation is still some ways off. Here are some points that I would like to re-iterate:


First of all, Statesman lists 3 points that he feels needs addressing, but responds with 2 points, failing to address point 2. Here's Statesman's words on point 2.

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2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.


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This point is simply left unaddressed. Apart from aesthetics (which admittedly are important), why would someone choose a Tanker rather than a Scrapper. Granted said "properly built" Scrapper may suffer some damage output loss by an optimal Tanker build, BUT it sounds like said Scrapper will retain a significant damage output advantage.

Now, when it comes to holding aggro, the Provoke AOE with melee attacks (note, he said Melee) seems to me like a tool that dumbs down tankers. Let's look at what Statesman said:

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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....

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The rationale here just doesn't hold up for me, I don't know about others. The rationale is better if you limit Tankers to the Huge body type, but the other problem is that it somehow assumes that the enemies think of a guy that is slowly beating them up is more dangerous than the guy that is QUICKLY beating them up, setting them on fire, etc. If anything, this sounds like more of a reason for the villains to RUN. Conceptually I have no problems with villains runninig, BUT game play wise a running villain is a way to slow down xp progression, and right now xp progression is more than slow enough for most ATs.

At lower levels, the AOE provoke sounds like a virtual Hospital Sentence, particularly when facing Cadavers/Vahz.

Of course, the tanker can simply not attack to avoid drawing aggro, but this could make the low level tanker experience a bad one. If this aggro component (much like the taunt component) remains undocumented in the power descriptions, it leaves new players completely unaware of the character's actual design and role.

As for the damage thing.

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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.


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Okay, the way they do their max damage is different, but the Scrapper remains the damage king. Fair enough, but the Tanker has to be the defensive king. The problem has been acknowledged, but it has yet to be addressed. I hope that a solution there is found.

Personally, I am o the camp that there is no problem by merging the two ATs, and having the final product/style of the characters be very similar. Scrappers get criticals, Tankers get a build up.

By that thinking, at the end game, a lot of characters will be about the same. But I'm not too concerned about that. The primary concern in my mind is having fun, and as long as that is achieved, the game will prosper.

Hopefully it will continue to deliver that.