Snow Globe

Sorry, I omitted the smiley because I didn't want to be mistaken for another poster.

And yes, you should have read the well-known and easy to find source.

Corrected for accuracy. Yes, because that kicks my need to help people I like to get badges into overdrive.

I go to other servers for day trips... Rarely.

Actually, my natural tendancy is to be wordier the more upset or relaxed I am.

Well said. I don't really have anything to add to your post.

If I had a larger pool of quality players, perhaps.

You know what? YOU could also come to Triumph and lead trials... There is absolutely nothing stopping you. Personally though, I would recommend that you have attitude looked at. Your post typifies elitism far more than my trial requirements do.

I would think that given NCsoft's and Paragon Studio's security that you could have bypassed either group's security to rectify the problem yourself.

I think I need to rest up... This sounds like a grueling schedule you have planned. Though I can think of a group of players that could help with MoLGTF, but the developers have to fix Khan before I run that again.

Then stop telling me how to make my teams. Stop complaining that I'm somehow taking away incarnate candy from players and that I'm blocking other player's incarnate progress when I'm not.

Yeah... I'm getting that you don't get that you are coming across as telling people how to play.

You don't know much about sports, huh? Take mountain climbing, for instance. That is a sport. Just like mountain climbing, the "opponent" in the trials is the trail itself.

No, I'm saying that your actions in this thread are just as much elitist as you are claiming that others are elitist by asking for more level shifts. But go ahead, keep your blinders on.

Oh, and I'm amused that you've accused Arcanaville of a logical fallacy that you are committing.

Maybe I didn't put a fine enough point on my posts. You can take your opinion and do this:



You clearly demonstrate the elitism that Blood Red Arachnid is complaining about.

If I don't ask for +3 (or even rarely +2), I get 1/2 to 3/4 of the league at +0 or +1, with a lot of those +0s without the alpha slot even unlocked.

So what? You aren't leading the trials I'm on.

I don't have to pick a fight, you started it with saying that how my requirements to form leagues is elitist. At the core of your argument is that your way of forming a league is better than other players.

And yet you are committing the same logical fallacy as asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?", you are presupposing that what I'm doing is elitism. So there isn't any way anyone can answer your charge of being an elitist that will satisfy you except "yeah, I'm being elitist". In other words, you are just flinging mud around, and wanting people to adhere to YOUR standards of league building. If that isn't a textbook case of elitism, I don't know what is.

So basically you are going around prejudging people because they have a different set of standards than you do.

Until you can come up with a concrete definition of "elitism" you are just throwing accusations around, nothing more.

It makes perfect sense. Your posts say that how I'm form a trial is using elitist requirements. By the way you have used the term in this thread, you are using it in a disparaging way. You also claim that your way of forming trials is superior (ie. not elitist by your standards), therefore you are trying to impose your rules for forming trials on others. At the heart of your posts in this thread is that you think that other players should form trials by the same rules as you do.

Trial leagues don't have to be competitive with each other for the analogy to apply. However you have already express that the analogy is sound because you claim that asking for +3 characters denies other leagues those same characters. So either the leagues are competitive, as you claim, or no one can fail any trial.

The trials themselves are a competitive medium. You can win or lose, just like any sports team. In forming a sports team a coach wants the best players they can get. In the same fashion a trial leader who wants to win will also try to get the best characters they can get to succeed at a trial. Elitism isn't a factor.

However, and here is the sticking point, there is a difference between being a jerk excluding a character because of some bias against blasters/tanks/whatever and someone excluding a character because they are (in the league leader's opinion) not equipped for the trial the league is about to face.

The problem is that I see my actions as being who and what I am. I'm defined by my actions, even more than my words. It doesn't matter to me that you are claiming to distinguish between me and how I form a league. I am myself and how I act, including how I form a league.

Then clearly state them.

Yes, unless you somehow think the official patch notes are false:

So do I with BAF, Lambda, Keyes, or TPN.

I think there is, at most, a core of 5-10 consistent trial leaders on Triumph right now:

@Snow Globe (myself)
@Kay Parfait
@Magenta Bolt
@Critical Ebon
@Sayaki

Not as frequently heard leading open trials on Triumph:

@Emerald Fusion (or anyone from the Fusion Force as they usually form as a group, but I haven't heard much from them lately on Triumph's main badge channel)
@Summoner Delmain

There you have it. The trial leaders of Triumph who frequently announce and lead open trials. As to who shows up for the trials, that depends on if it is an open or closed league. I know that I personally don't turn anyone down for BAF, Lambda, Keyes, or TPN. The opposite in fact. There are people that say "Keyes is too difficult for me because I'm on a new 50 that doesn't have a level shift." My response has always been "Keyes is easy, let me show you."

Apparently I have to repeat my policy (yet again):

• BAF: Bring whatever character you want, as long as it is at least level 50.
• Lambda: Bring whatever character you want, as long as it is at least level 50.
• Keyes: Bring whatever character you want, as long as it is at least level 50.
• UG: Bring whatever character you want, as long as it is at least level 50+3.
• TPN: Bring whatever character you want, as long as it is at least level 50.
• MoM: Bring whatever character you want, as long as it is at least level 50+3.
• DD: Bring whatever character you want, as long as it is at least level 50+3.

In no situation do I say "we have too many tanks, someone needs to switch to a healer". If a player wants to bring a tank, I'm not going to stop them. If they feel the need to switch to a healer or debuffer after seeing the team make up, I appreciate it, but I don't require it. I don't lead trials to tell players what characters to bring, even if it makes the trial a little harder.

And my typical response is "whatever you want" to BAF, Lambda, Keyes, or TPN. For the others, it is "Something that is +3, please."

I've been on 4 non-bugged Keyes failures (plus one fail due to AM getting stuck in a catwalk) out of 106 Keyes trials on Triumph. At this point my TPN percentage is actually better: I've yet to see a failure on that trial. I actually don't expect that to always be the case as I've been hearing about more failures for TPN.

Underground (50% fail overall), MoM (55% fail overall), and DD trials (42% fail overall) are a different matter entirely.

Edit for comparisons here are the failure rates I've seen for all the trials:

Overall Trial failure rate: 9.83%
Overall BAF failure rate: 6.75%
Overall Lambda failure rate: 8.14%
Overall Keyes failure rate: 5.00%
Overall Underground failure rate: 50.00%
Overall TPN failure rate: 0.00%
Overall MoM failure rate: 55.56%
Overall DD failure rate: 42.86%

I used to have an open-door policy as Blood Red Arachnid and others have suggested. I'm of the opinion that is why the failure rates of the 3 trials are so high. So my policy has changed to what it is now.

Good.

However I think that your response to Arcanaville bears some scrutiny.
Basically what you are saying is that you don't perceive what others are doing as fair, and you are upset about that. You are trying to push your standards of right and wrong onto others.

The problem with your "litmus test" is that player skill is a subjective assessment, which is not a strictly defined standard.

[Edit]

The difference is that what I'm asking for is an objective measurement (level shift) that matches the objective (again, level shift)+subjective (overall difficulty) statistics of a trial. You are basing your opinions mostly on a subjective measurement (player skill). While I factor that in, I don't solely rely on the subjective aspect of someone joining one of my trials.

[/Edit]

I don't do this. However I'm likely to take the blaster then switch to MY tank in this case.

Then, by that definition, I'm not being elitist. I'm not excluding players without the needed skills as I perceive them. I'm doing the opposite: I'm helping people get what I feel are the needed skills to do the trials.

Your way of determining what is elitist is so subjective that I doubt that anyone could agree with your definition.

The root of the problem is that you are not using the same definition for elitism as almost everyone else in this thread is using the term. You are using a your value system (that everyone should have equal access to all trials) and distorting the definition of elitism to fit that value system. You are being elitist by trying to impose your standards of how to form an incarnate trial onto other players leading trials.

You believe that everyone should have an equal opportunity to do the trials. Well, I agree with that. However there is a difference between having an equal opportunity and not having the required skills. You wouldn't make charges of elitism against a sports team that cut a player for not being able to keep up, right? You wouldn't question the fairness of the rules of the sport and you wouldn't question that only the appropriate players are on that sports team, even though for all intents, the remaining players would be the elite of the team.

Because how to from an incarnate trial team with is completely subjective, we have a disagreement as to what constitutes merit. So you are flinging accusations of "elitism" at me. You have your own standards because building teams for incarnate trials is a subjective team. Because you don't understand my (or other player's) subjective standards, you fling disparaging terms around without accepting the the fact that your standards are not shared by everyone.

By calling someone "elitist", you are saying there are universal standards where none exist. By saying that I'm elitist, you are saying that I'm unfairly discriminating against players. If that were true, I would not be helping players get the level shifts that I think a character should have by my standards for a difficult trial. That you are making charges of elitism when you are just as guilty, if not more so, is laughable. You complain about my rules while you try to put in place your own.

Not everyone can succeed without level shifts, you've said so yourself. At that point some selection process has to occur. The question is, "Which one?" At this point everyone knows mine: 50+0 to 50+3 for BAF, Lambda, Keyes, or TPN and +3 for UG, MoM, and DD. We know your's as well: Include everyone, even 50+0 to any incarnate trial. People will gravitate towards what will work. For Triumph, that likely means people will continue to join trials that I host. I can't say what will or will not work on another server.

So what? Allow some of those animations to be used for existing sets. I don't see the issue that Synapse is making.

MA could have got some of the SJ animations without affecting SJ sales.

I don't see it as either/or. New power sets could also provide new animations for existing power sets. I think anyone that is saying that it is one or the other isn't seeing the whole picture.

I'd like to see new animations as a part of the VIP benefits. I don't think I'd pay for packs like this. They are being paid for this. Maybe some of that new animation work should begin with the Power Pools.

Agreed on all points, and the developers need to get their act together because it is only fueling threads like this one.

The highlighted portion is a false assumption. As that false assumption is the basis for your entire argument, your whole premise falls apart. I know at least 30 players on Triumph with multiple 50+3 characters. Of those, I know at least 10 that have over five 50+3 characters on Triumph. It takes me, at most, 20 trials to be 50+3. Why? I use Astrals and Empyrean Merits to fund my character's progression. I know one player that most of his 20+ level 50+3s were +1 without stepping foot in an Incarnate trial (I think he got to the point that some of the later ones became +3s before entering trials) because he used the Astral/Empyrean Merit vendors to transfer farmed shards/astrals/empyrean merits to his new 50s.

Maybe on your server, or maybe they just swapped to a different character and you didn't notice because they got onto another trial. As far as the trial you chose, I personally wouldn't run UG twice in a night, even with a stable of 11 characters to choose from. UG is simply too long and too annoying to deal with multiple times in a day. On the other hand, Triumph runs UG trials once every few months, so that isn't an issue.

Nope people can, and do, switch toons if they want more Empyrean merits. On the other hand if they are looking for the reward table, they will sometimes choose to take Astral Merits for another chance at the reward table.

Actually, Lambdas are being run less often on Triumph. Same goes for BAFs, but not to the degree of Lambdas. The go-to trials seem to be Keyes and TPN. The DD is popular, but that may be because of the "get the badges while people are doing the trial" factor. However, MoM and UG are rarely run, with the clear loser being UG due to length and difficulty. Getting a UG formed (and I'm not talking about the ones I form) is like asking people to take a trip to the dentist for a root canal. They might do so, but they'd much rather be doing something else.

TPNs are faster than the UG, have the 60 threads as a mid-trial reward, the 2 Emps for the first run, 1 Emp for the successive runs, a higher than BAF/Lambda chance at a Rare/Very Rare, is far quicker to form, far quicker to run through, and without the higher chance of failure. To put it simply, Undergrounds SUCK.

The MoDD gives exactly ONE rare component. It isn't repeatable, so you are comparing apples to oranges.

I can form and run both a TPN -and- a Keyes in the same time it takes to form and do a UG Trial. That is two higher than BAF/Lambda chances at Rares/Very Rares, the same amount (if not far greater) of threads and Astral Merits, and one more Empyrean Merit.

The Underground, and I've said this before, only has better rewards in potential.

Yeah, because I'm willing to help others get their level shifts in other ways is selfish. Cry wolf much? Just because I'm not willing to help others out in one way doesn't mean that I'm selfish.

However the reverse IS true: If, when offered help, players refuse that help and petulantly stamp their feet like whiny little children that they should be included in whatever they feel like despite clear warning. At that point they are being selfish. Stop painting these people as victims. They aren't. Other options are being given to them, but they are refusing those options. At that point they are being selfish.

If I somehow managed to convince everyone on the server to not play with someone because they ticked me off, that would be blocking their progress. Even then they'd have outlets (DA arcs, server transfers) that I could not control. Get a clue, I can't do that. No one can. The only people that can are the GMs.

If I were only running Undergrounds, MoMs, and DDs without running the easier trials, then I would be selfish. However I'm not just running those trials.

Only by ignoring that I'm running the easier trials can you even begin to make the claim that I'm being elitist or selfish. At this point you are committing a logical fallacy that you can drive a truck through.

You have already said you don't want to discuss it, but I'll repeat myself (and you): Just because someone can do something doesn't mean that everyone can. You are basically saying that because some players can do the more difficult trials on less shifted characters, that means that every unshifted character should be allowed to join any trials that form.

Yes, I agree that someone is ignoring the numbers, but it isn't me.

You are destroying your own credibility enough in that discussion that I don't need to help her.

Yeah, it isn't making sense to you because you have a preset notion of what you THINK my motivations are, instead of the reality of what my motivations are.

And who is being elitist now? Or perhaps condescending would be a better term. Either way, at least I'm not being hypocritical.

Oh, I see it now... Martyr complex... Gotcha. I hate to break it to you, but if you want to fall on your sword for something, that doesn't mean that someone who isn't killing themselves is an evil tyrant.

I hate to break it to you, but I've seen the majority of (edit: Triumph) trial players on my leagues at one point or the other.

Perhaps that is because everyone else thinks that you are wrong. Perhaps you shouldn't be looking as much at others and spend more time looking at yourself and your own motivations.

Of course it would be incorrect because that isn't what I've been saying despite you (and others) misrepresenting what I've been saying.

What I've been saying is that "Some content is more difficult than other content, and if you want to do the more difficult content please bring a character appropriate to the challenge. If you don't have a character that is appropriate to the challenge, join one of my other hosted incarnate trials so that you can bring something appropriate. However, if you don't want to put forth that much effort, then find someone else willing to take you because I won't take you on that harder content."

Of course, that would take someone actually reading what I post.

No, you are saying that how I choose to play the game is somehow "wrong" and that I should change how I play.

Actually, I can. You admitted yourself that just because someone can do something, that it doesn't follow that everyone can. That is the problem in a nutshell. If everyone could do it, then all the content would be the same. The problem is that not everyone can do some of these trials without level shifts.

At the end of the day, asking players to bring characters appropriate to the content isn't being elitist, it is being practical.

Actually, the better example in my opinion would be bringing along half the team at 45 to a Lord Recluse Strike Force led by a level 50 under the old sidekicking rules. An elite team that was perfectly balanced for the strike force could do it, but I sure wouldn't do it with what amounts to a PUG.

Actually, I agree, that is a much better example.

Exactly.

I want both of you to try to bring a level 40 to a STF. When you can do that, then you have a basis for complaining about my requirements for harder trials.

Edit:
Also, how many open trials do you host and how often? I'm guessing that you only get a core of people you regularly play with and at that point fill with others. My open trials are open, meaning that I start with myself and announce on at least 3 global channels that I'm forming a trial.

Only 90%? I peg my own bafflement of the Paragon Market extends to 99% of it, down to their choice of third party "helper".

Getting near -any- troop portal in Khan will crash everyone on the map.

Actually, it does mean that I don't meet the description. For me to meet the description, I have to meet all the description.

No, just you at this point. I treat people with equal respect to the respect that they treat me with. In your case, I'm actually treating you better than you are treating me.

If I wanted to bring the WoW mentality to this game I'd demand that each player to bring a specific Archetype, level shift, and specific Incarnate powers.

As to your other post, I'm not requiring "top tier requirements. If I was, I'd ask everyone to bring fully Tier 4'd characters to all incarnate trials.

So put a sock in it.

Edit:
Oh, yeah... If people want me to invite 50+0s to any trial, then they'd have better luck getting the developers to drop the level shifts on the trials themselves.

If Underground were +0 (and had a few other changes), I'd not ask for level shifts.

If MoM were +0 (and had a few other changes), I'd not ask for level shifts.

If DD were +0, I'd not ask for level shifts.

I don't know if the developers will budge, but they are more likely to than I am over this subject.

Yeah... Helping others to get level shifts to meet my requirements is patronizing...

No, that is a free service I provide to those that engage in posting without thinking.

So you want to selfishly insist that I change how I run trials so that you run them the way that you want.

You want to ignore the fact that I help to get people to my requirements so you can selfishly run them the way that you want.

That assumes several factors:

• That the player only has one level 53 character.
  
  Like I said, I've got at least 10 of my own at +3. I know several other players with more.
• That the player isn't willing to do a trial more than once on the same character in the same day.
  
  I've done this plenty of times. I know several other players that do the same. Even in your post you mention that players you team with do so.
• That the player is not interested in the reward table instead of Empyrean Merits.
  
  For some players the reward table means more to them than the Empyrean Merits.

Oh, and Arcanaville's comments about a 14-15 hour trial... I'd quit at hour 4 in disgust. I'm not talking about the trial. I mean the game for at least a week.

So does Keyes and TPN. TPN also gives a Emp merit for each run after the first in one day, just like MoM (which doesn't give 2 Emps after the first run in one day). TPN also gives a bonus reward of 60 threads mid-trial, just like Underground, which is MORE than a MoM trial. I've been running regular TPN/Keyes trials. Your point that I'm limiting growth for other players is therefore bogus.

Oh, and after seeing several failed DD trials, my opinion of that matches Underground: It doesn't matter what the potential reward is when the trial fails. Trial failure means no rewards, therefore no progress.

And you say that I'm selfish? Give me a break. This is all about you, not me. At least I'm more honest about my requirements.

Wing_Leader put it more succinctly:
I've been saying this for as long as I've been able to play them.

The developers putting level shifts on the later trials is a blatant crutch that compounds trial gimmicks to the point where failure due to a few players is more certain. To combat that chance of failure, I ask for higher level shifts.

You don't have a snowball's hope in hell of convincing me of that. You are wasting both your time and my time continuing this fruitless point.

As I've pointed out, that isn't likely to happen on the server I frequent. Even if it were to happen, the second group could still do a BAF (few as 12), Lambda (few as 8), Keyes (few as 12), or TPN (few as 12). Keyes is about as rewarding than DD, and TPN has greater rewards than DD. So your justification isn't valid because the characters I don't see as qualified for the level shifts and gimmicks that a trial have an equal chance at a rewarding trial.

Yup, and I don't see asking for level shifts on harder trials as asking for peak conditions for success. I see asking for X, Y, and Z ATs, with specific powers to be asking for peak conditions.

You got lucky. I prefer to minimize luck, thank you very much.

The moment you, or another player tells me who I should or should not invite to a league I am forming, it becomes work for me.

This is why I ask for people to bring characters worthy of the trial they are facing. What a shock. The fallacy that you are putting forth is that I don't enjoy playing the game. Far from it. What I don't enjoy is players bringing characters to content that they are not suited which in turns wastes my play time.

You know, I can say the same for your posts in this thread. They aren't about my play style, what I ask for in the leagues I run, or even about the trials themselves. You are complaining how I'm ruining YOUR play (despite the fact that we're not even on the same server), by asking for some standards.

The same attitude you describe in this quote applies equally to players that want on any trial without restriction. It is ultimately selfish, malicious, and a detriment to the community to give into their selfish demands that they join a league where they aren't willing to put forth enough effort (despite being given the opportunity to gain those level shifts) to meet some

Funny you should mention that. With mixed-shifted MoM trials I have a 100% failure rate. After I started asking for +3s, that has dropped to 27% failure rate. I don't know, but with that much of an improvement, I'm going to stick with what works.

I'm entirely glad that I know you are joking. I'd find a way to get back at every single player responsible for that kind of travesty.

I've also been saying this.

My thoughts exactly.