Smurch

Actually, the concept of "gangs as being protectors of their communities" idea has been done more than once. You can certainly do thugs and be Good Guys all the way.

Without their pets, you mean. MM is the redside tank (with pets out, in BG mode).

I'm pretty happy with how my MMs play. They're amongst the most capable ATs there are, capable of extraordinary feats. Many people say MMs might be overpowered as it is. I laugh at such claims, as doing so reduces the odds the devs will nerf my precious MMs, but really... we're pretty darn effective as is, don't you think?

Translation: "I think I am going to lose this debate and so I'll run away... JUST LIKE I DO IN PVP"

it bears repeating.

Again and again and again for some people, apparently.

Yep, that's what I said: people run in PVP because they're afraid of being ridiculed if they lose.

PEOPLE RUN IN PVP BECAUSE OF FEAR.

No other reason.

And you know what? You're just as likely if not more likely to get testosterone-drenched juvenile teabagging if you run. Therein lies the irony.

Not post I-13 you didn't.

Also, hospitals are enclosed buildings with drones out front.

So, are you saying, if you fight OUT IN THE ZONE, you can lose, teleport to the hospital, and the enemy can reach your base in the same time it took you to teleport there, set up a kill zone, and tp you into it from within a closed room?

Are you really?

REALLY?

Dude, kill me at ANY firebase in BB, and I will be back the hospital, out and up and out of the zone in less time it takes you to even SEE my base. Guaranteed.

It's IMPOSSIBLE for you to kill me in the zone then kill me in my base unless you killed me while I was running away and was near my base already, and it was before I-13.

We call that "being a jerk".

I came to your party then peed in your punchbowl. Because I can. Because I win that way.

It's unsporting.

What ever happened to sportsmanship? Winning or losing with grace?

Eh, I'll usually fight even if I know I'll ultimately lose (and I usually do lose. I admit it, I'm not the best PVPer out there, I have no idea how to slot for PVP, I never use movement gimmicks, I just fight - most PVErs would stand close to a 50/50 chance against me in PVP).

I just like to see how far I can get, how many licks I can get in. Sometimes I surprise myself and win when I never expected to, but I don't engage in PVP just when I am sure I can win. Sometimes you just gotta roll the dice and see what happens.

In fact, when I fight back against insurmountable odds (like multiple foes) it's when I feel best about myself as a player. Especially if I can take one of them with me. But hey, at least I tried, and that's worth something.

None of this involves necessarily suicidal behavior. Just because you don't think you can win means you need to throw your self away, either.

However, since losing costs me nothing, but running costs me my self respect, I'd rather fight and lose than run and live.

Now YOU are making up BS. Because the person who runs isn't staying in the PVP zone. They're LEAVING THE ZONE.

So, they can be defeated and leave the zone (less time investment)
or
Run away then leave the zone (More time investment).
or
Fight back and maybe stay or leave (possibly less time investment PLUS rewards)

If someone choses to be defeated as a way to retreat from the zone as a quicker route than running, they're not going to be defeated again and again: there is no way for the attacker to follow them to their base and out of the zone. it's IMPOSSIBLE.

More than likely.

That's just what you're supposed to believe.

It's all a Nemesis plot.

It wasn't my analogy. I was working with what I was given.

Do you feel that someone who enters a consensual PVP zone has an implicit right to NOT be attacked by the opposing side? Because that's what the guy I was responding to said: that if he's not there to PVP, he has a RIGHT to expect that other people won't attack him even if he's standing out in the open. In a PVP zone.

Do you feel this same sense of entitlement?

No, that's entirely wrong. You're entering a consensual PVP zone. You were warned at least three times when you entered that you WILL be attacked by other players and if you do not want to be attacked you should leave. You stayed. You therefore CONSENTED TO PVP both implicitly and explicitly.

It's like going to a rock concert then complaining to the manager about the noise, because the band on stage is interfering with your conversation.

You can do PVE in any non-PVP zone.
You can visit your friend in any Co-op zone.

You do not come into a PVP zone, where PVP is enabled, then complain when people engage you in PVP claiming their "forcing their fun" on you. You CONSENTED to their fun. Your complaining after the fact is demanding that the PVP zone be re-classifed JUST FOR YOU because you're a special snowflake who must be catered to.

If you enter a PVP zone, you're open game. If you disagree with this, then go ahead an petition a GM when you get attacked in a PVP zone and claim someone is harassing you. Let me know how long it takes for the GM to stop laughing at you.

Ok, how about a classic Capture the Flag scenario found in many games (which I mentioned and you ignored). Lets talk hypothetically. The set up of these games is this: Two opposing teams of players are plopped into a zone. The goal of each team is to capture the other team's flag. That's all they need to do to win: Capture the other team's flag.

Both teams have the ability and incentive to attack and defeat each other (to protect their own flag or get rid of people protecting the opposite flag).

Now, it's possible to win the match without actually fighting the other side.

Is this a PVP mission or not, by your definition?

If you don't like Hot sauce, then I suggest you don't go to the House of Hotsauce to eat then complain because there's hotsauce on everything.

The PVP Zones are just that: PVP Zones.

The Warzone Liaison, the mission text, and the GIANT COUNT DOWN WITH THE BIG BWOOPING NOISE all tell you that if you enter here you WILL get attacked by other players. It's false advertising, because you might not be attacked, but that's what the text says. You come here, other players will attack you.

And you went anyways.

And someone attacked you.

And you have the chutzpah to COMPLAIN about it?

That takes some serious nerve!

It's like going to the House of Hotsauce then yelling in the face of the staff for shoving hotsauce in your face, when you READ THE SIGN and came in anyways. It'd be like going to a Hookah bar then complaining about second hand smoke, or going to an Indian restaurant and complaining because they won't serve you a hamburger. It's irrational, and it shows a disturbing sense of self-importance, that the rest of the world should re-align itself to appease YOU.

If you get attacked in a PVP zone, it's YOUR fault. You do not have a right to Shivans. You do not have a right to run around a PVP zone and expect everyone to respect your boundaries. You have one expectation in a PVP zone: Other players will attack you if they see you. If you don't like that particular Hot Sauce, then go somewhere where the menu is more to your liking, like all the rest of the zones in the game. But don't show up at the House of Hotsauce and scream at the patrons there how they're forcing hotsauce on you. Go to the House of Plain Vanilla if you prefer. No one will stop you. Heck, I might even see you there. I only go out for Hotsauce every once in a while, myself. When I'm not in the mood for it, I don't seek it out. Because if I do seek it out, and it's not to my liking, it's no one's fault but mine.

So, if you're saying that:

PVP is not fun
BUT
Running AWAY from PVP IS Fun.

Correct?

Because if you're NOT saying that, then what you said is illogical and nonsensical.

If the choice is:

Do something Fun
Do something NOT fun

Obviously pick the fun one.

But if the choice is

Do something not fun for 1 minute
Do something not fun for 2.5 minutes,

the only reason to pick doing the "not fun" option for longer is if there is another psychological influence attached to THAT kind of not-fun as opposed to the first kind of "not-fun". That is, if given a chance to do something un-fun or something un-fun that'd take even longer to do, the only rational choice is to get the not-fun over as quickly as possible.

So, yes, it IS a simple time calculation. The reason people run isn't to avoid an un-fun situation. It's to RUN FROM PVP. Which I doubt they're finding fun (or they'd come back again and again for more opportunities to run away instead of leaving the zone). The reason they run is because they find the prospect of LOSING at PVP to be threatening on some level beyond "it's not fun".

If they didn't, if they were behaving rationally, they'd pick the option that would get the "not fun" part over the fastest. To do otherwise suggests that they're either gluttons for punishment or that there is some other motivation at work other than "it's not fun". If you want to argue the former, I won't stop you.

No. There are very, very few foods I dislike the taste of (I'm an epicure) but those that I don't like, I can describe in great detail exactly why I do not like them.

I cannot imagine someone saying "I just don't like it but I don't know why". That smacks to be of them either being dishonest with me or dishonest with themselves. If we dislike something we know why.

Just sometimes, when that something involves other people, it challenges some of our ideas about ourselves, so it's uncomfortable to admit that the reason we don't like it is because of, for example, an irrational fear of losing face, of being rejected, etc.

If someone doesn't like PVP, I am sure they ALSO don't like having to run away, leave the zone, and abandon their progress on their Shivans, but they're really ready to do THAT, aren't they?

PVP, in it's current incarnation, isn't all that different from PVE except there is a real person on the other side of that "boss". It's mechanically a little different, sure, but the basic idea is the same: kill them before they kill you. Use your powers. Worst case scenario, you go back to your base WHICH IS WHERE YOU WERE ABOUT TO RUN TO ANYWAYS. So you lose absolutely nothing. The only difference between PVP and PVE that's significant in this instance is purely psychological.

The only difference between PVP and PVE is the human factor, and someone who says "I don't like PVP" is ultimately saying "I don't want to compete against other humans" and they certainly do know why they feel that way. There's a psychological reason why they want to avoid that scenario, and 9 times out of 10, it's an irrational fear.

My wife was the same way. She had no interest in PVP. I convinced her to play in RVR scenarios in WAR and before I knew it, she was bragging about killing this guy or that guy in Nordenwatch. She eventually admitted that she initially avoided PVP because she was convinced she wouldn't be any good at it, that more skillful players would just trounce her over and over and she wouldn't be effective. Turns out, she loved it.

I think most people are the same. Such extreme avoidance of PVP to the point that you'll spend several minutes fleeing to the place that another player could just send you in seconds isn't because "I don't like PVP", it's because you're afraid of losing, you're afraid of looking bad, you're afraid of losing face, and you're afraid of being ridiculed.

People run in PVP because they are afraid. No other explanation makes any sense at all. Just "I don't want to PVP and would rather leave and do something else" justifies standing still and letting the other player kill you to get you back to base faster. Even fighting back would take less time than running and you MIGHT be able to even finish what you were doing.

Running is because of fear. Period.

So, by your standard, if I set up an arena match, and I have to interact with the arena kiosk object, the arena is PVE content?

Similarly, in games where there are Capture the Flag PVP games, since winning the game involves touching an object (the enemy flag) that doesn't TECHNICALLY require fighting enemy players, obviously Capture The Flag is, in fact, a PVE mission?

Is this correct?

Actually, if people attack you and defeat you, you cannot complete the mission and must start over.

But, again, it's not really the argument here.

I'll play in the arena as soon as we can toggle off Sudden Death.

My necromancer (who will likely be a Rogue once it's available) binds the souls of the damned and forces them to serve him. He summons them up from Hell (or wherever souls of the damned usually hangout in the CoX cosmology). They're the souls of the absolute worst of humanity, now forced to serve as part of their punishment.

This character is kinda pseudo-heroic: he's not an inherently bad guy, but he's an "end justifies the means" kind of amoral anti-hero. He's a great candidate for Going Rogue.