Smiling_Joe

Dude. Sweet.

Updating the binds post with this info - thanks, Microcosm!

Your bind isn't working is because the bozo that originally typed it up in the forums here is an idiot.

Now if you'd like the correct bind, it is:

/bind tab "target_enemy_next$$target_custom_next void$$target_custom_next quantum$$target_custom_next cyst"

It didn't work because the game reads binds right to left, so when it found an enemy, it quit looking for the other things.

Sorry about that. Sometimes I get turned around when typing - thanks for catching it! I'll fix the binds thread accordingly.

Edit - it's me. I'm the idiot. By the way.

I'll go ahead and copy Brightstorm over then, on the outside chance that the Illuminati wants to do a test server ITF (and because Aether Flux won't be ready for at least another 11 levels!)

Finished the NanoWrimo - so start looking for me on Mondays now, BTW.

I'm a little unsure of my schedule for next Saturday, but if I'm not visiting relatives I will definitely be there on my lv 50 pb and my wife will likely want to do it on her lv 46 ws.

That's IF we're not visiting her parents that weekend. (big IF)

Ah. Knew I was forgetting one. Much thanks.

Out of curiosity, what procs besides the Performance Shifter proc slot into the fitness pool? I can think of Winters Gift slow resistance, but that's not technically a proc, as a proc implies a chance to fire.

There's a proc in Energy Manipulator, but that'd not do anything slotted into Stamina.

Of course, it goes without saying that the stealth procs won't slot into passives, so what am I missing?

And if it's the Performance Shifter proc you're thinking of, do you mean to say its chance to give +endurance fires every ten seconds even when in form so long as you're in human form every two minutes? My understanding was that it had a chance to fire when the power becomes active, and rolls the chance every ten seconds after, but stops rolling once the power becomes inactive, as stamina would when going into form.

If the latter is the case, then I fail to see the usefulness of that proc to the forms.

Ah. Then we're on the same page. I've heard others make the comparison before, though. Hence the perceived need on my end to correct it.

Agreed 1000 percent, although I'm not completely sure why we've gone off on a tangent with Warshades in a topic about improving Peacebringers.

The problem with the dual effect idea of -def and -res is that the -def in the attacks right now is (off the top of my head, which isn't the most reliable place) on average around 10%-11%. Insert a grain of salt here on behalf of my sieve-like memory. So if we give 10% on average to BOTH -def and -res, then it's likely going to be too much for Castle and co. to swallow. If we suggest an overall COMBINED debuff of -10% that splits it 5/5 between -def and -res then the stacking might not be so effective, and the improvement to PB's would be less than we'd like.

I don't have the time right now to crunch the numbers to figure out an attack chain that factors in the 5% resistance debuff with current durations and recharges, so I really couldn't say one way or the other whether that would be enough net gain to improve performance.

Then again, if that 10% average -res that would theoretically be added to what we now have were unenhanceable, then I can easier see it happening.

The only PB human form self buff that doesn't carry over into the forms for longer than a few seconds is build up, as Boost Essence and Conserve Power both last a fairly long time.

Although - and I might get flamed for saying this - I'm quite alright with a 15 second duration to Build Up, even with 3 seconds of it eaten up shifting to nova. Three seconds will only give you one extra attack, at best. The main problem isn't the duration of the buff, it's that you must shift down to human form to use it, and because it's a short duration on a medium recharge, if you try to use it every time it's up you end up spending ALOT of time switching from form to form, and it becomes counter-productive.

What I'd like to see on the table is an increased damage/tohit buff given to the power to compensate for its limited use in the forms. Give me a massive burst of damage at the outset that balances out the loss of time shifting form.

But if a human modifier increase were given to both PB and WS then it wouldn't do anything to address the disparity between the classes. Warshades don't really need any help IMHO. That's why I felt a modifier increase was problematic in the first place - it's hard to justify increasing one modifier without increasing the other.

Looking at the powers would go a long way towards evening the two classes, but you do us Peacebringers a disservice when you compare Photon Seekers to Unchain Essence. Photon Seekers should always be compared to the other level 32 Kheldian pet, Extracted Essence.

Unchain Essence is a PBAOE that is available at 26, and should be compared to Solar Flare.

In fact, let's do that right now.

Photon Seekers are available at 32, and is a pet class power.
Extract Essence is available at 32, and is a pet class power.

Photon Seekers have only one attack, which is a self destruct.
Extract Essence has three attacks: Shadow Blast, Shadow Bolt, and Gravitic Emanation (a damage cone, NOT the stunning kind)

Photon Seekers gives you three pets with one summon.
Extract Essence gives you one.

Photon Seekers has a long enough recharge to make stacking the pet summons impossible.
Extract Essence has a very stackable friendly recharge, with hasten/slotting giving you two and three pets out at a time.

Photon Seekers last 60 seconds.
Extract Essence lasts 200 seconds.

Photon Seekers does 91.2 Energy Damage x3 for 273.6 points of unenhanced damage.
Extracted Essence, assuming a seven to eight second attack chain of SBolt, SBlast, SBolt, SBolt (excluding Grav Em due to the murky difference between it and its namesake and due to a 45 second recharge) will increase a WS dps by around 28dps, or doing a total of 225-ish points of damage every 8 seconds, or - seen in terms of total damage output per summon, >5000 points of damage, provided the WS is in combat for 200 continuous seconds (which is unlikely). And that's just one fluffy. And take those figures with a huge grain of salt, given that I'm typing in somewhat of a hurry and didn't think the attack chain through very long.

The disparity between these two powers is obscene, but that's old news. The problem is that Photon Seekers feels and plays like a PBAOE, and so is always being compared to the next closed thing: Unchain Essence, which is unfair.

I should point out that this is looking at these powers in a vacuum - at hardly any time during normal play will you ever be in combat for 200 continuous seconds (mothership raid, AV's, ITF, maybe). Nonetheless, the disparity is still huge.

Suggestions have been made to increase the damage of Photon Seekers and/or shorten the recharge, but what I would like to have is the duration and recharge equal to that of Unchain Essence. In fact, I think the recharge should be even shorter. Don't make the pet stackable like the fluffies (after all, you do get three) but make it so that you can have them up with more consistency. Even perma, should they stick around for that long (Which is doubtful).



Now, on to Unchain Essence:

Solar Flare is a PBAOE available at level 26.
Unchain Essence is a PBAOE available at level 26.

Solar Flare does 67.12 Energy Damage.
Unchain Essence does 115.67 Negative Energy Damage.

Solar Flare has a 20 second recharge.
Unchain Essence has a 240 second recharge.
So in the time Unchain essence can be fired off twice for 480 points of damage, Solar flare can be fired off 12 times for a total of 805.44 points of damage.

Seen in a vacuum, they're pretty well balanced. But how often during the course of normal play are you going to be in combat for 240 straight seconds? No, if like the disparity between Fluffies and Seekers can be closed somewhat by looking at them in terms of normal play, the disparity between these two powers is widened when a normal spawn will feel only one Unchain Essence and maybe two solar flares.

And none of this takes into account the fact that Negative Energy damage is less resisted than Energy damage.

The late twenties and early thirties are where Warshades start to really outperform Peacebringers, and these four powers are part of the reason why.


Agreed, and your suggestion is a good one.

More tin-plated than silver.

The reason the effect was spread across three powers was put in the suggestion specifically to make the total magnitude of the overall effect more expensive. You invest more powers to get that +24% recovery, whereas your suggestion of making reform essence's 25% heal a healing aura would only require one slot. So while yes, different in the amount of powers taken, the net gain is still around 25%. In fact, the recovery suggestion is less of an overall gain due to it being more expensive in the power choices area.

For that matter, I believe Doc's suggestion stated that the +recovery part couldn't be enhanced, while reform essence could, could it not? So that's a 24% enhanceable persistent recovery gain spread across three powers verses a 25% enhanceable burst of healing (vise regeneration) in one power.

You're right, they are different - yours is a bigger buff.
And wasn't one of the problems with the shields that they weren't desirable to take? Why would that be a bad thing? And if PB builds that don't have the shields aren't spending time in human form, then you're still debuffing with the forms in the form of damres, so how would this hurt that playstyle at all? More options is never a bad thing.
As stated before, there's more than one way to help the team. Accelerate Metabolism wears off, but you don't see /Rad controllers trying to make it perma with IO's, and even if you could, I highly suspect the most popular ways a rad controller helps a team are the debuff toggles. I think you're overestimating the value of recovery in the players' eyes. It's valuable, yes, but recovery is something nearly everyone has by 20 in the form of stamina. Most people don't sweat recovery as much as they worry about keeping their hit points up.

My point is that just as you can swoop in with Nova to rescue a teammate, fire off a few blasts, drop to human and hit your heal that happens to heal that teammate as well, you can do something similar by taking just one shield. Drop to human form and toggle the shield on near the tank who's just been sapped. It's only 8% verses the heal's 25% (upwards of 50%, slotted), but if you're on a team then there's also most likely multiple ways of recovering +end, be it from the tank himself, an emp, a rad, or a kin. +recovery isn't exactly rare. And in both suggestions you've also debuffed the damage resistance of the enemies around the tank with your nova blasts.

Stop pinning poor player attitudes on the powers. Uneducated players will whine about ANYTHING you're not doing often enough that they can obviously see is a benefit to them. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they'd complain much louder about not seeing those pretty bright rays that emanate from them every time a heal aura goes off than they would about not seeing some passive buff.

Players that complain about such things seldom recognize the passive buffs/debuffs.


Oh I remember. And if you'll remember I'm one of your suggestion's biggest defenders. It's an excellent, well thought-out suggestion. In fact it was your suggestion that brought the -Res component to this thread in the first place. Doc_Hornet was just trying to incorporate themes he'd read in this thread.

And if you can debuff resistance in the forms and buff Recovery in the human, then you ARE helping the team in all three forms. If you don't play in human all that much and don't take the shields, no one is stopping you, and you're still helping the team. Why is giving more options to powers you don't use so pernicious to your playing style? I'd be willing to bet a month's salary that so long as the bodies are hitting the floor no one really pays attention to who's buffing who.

In fact, in my experience everyone generally feels like they did it all on their own.

Light-stick, meet heal-bot. Who cares what other people say? If you're a good player (and you are) they won't expect anything but success. And while 30 seconds (after enhancing) isn't anything that will let you rock an aura, it's certainly not a long cool down.

And saying a HEAL doesn't do much in comparison to increased RECOVERY when both are buffing at the same percentage is just outright wrong. You'd do better comparing regeneration to recovery, because an enhanceable 25% injection of hit points every thirty seconds beats out a steady, unenhanceable 24% boost to your own recovery any day.

If your team mate loses two-thirds of their health to an alpha strike, that heal will save them. If they lose two-thirds of their end to a sapper, that 24% recovery boost isn't going to do much.

Again, no one is disparaging your suggestion, or claiming credit for something you previously suggested; the -Res in Hornet's suggestion comes pretty much directly from you. He just excluded it from human form in favor of a different buff.

And if you're willing to stand up to people who would theoretically want you to play a heal-bot to preserve your playstyle, what's stopping you from doing the same in this theoretical case?

Geez, I feel like I'm in bizzarroworld, where the champion of controll/defend roles for kheldians is coming out against a non-damage suggestion that makes kheldians more team-friendly not because it's unbalancing, but because he's worried it will threaten his personal playstyle. Not that you are - I'm just saying that's how it appears to me.

Please don't take offense if I've misunderstood, but do you see why I'm incredulous?

Hard to type when I'm laughing so hard. I think we should all point at that little gem and make fun of it's author's mother.

And this:
is priceless. Consider it sigg'd.

And after all that grief you got for suggesting they add an aura component to restore essence, you're saying this?

LX, I'm with you on a lot of things, but adding a recovery aura to the shields would no more make teams demand that you stay in human form than your suggestion make them demand that you stay in the back and become a heal-bot.

The recovery aura isn't the only component of the suggestion. By giving the forms the -res component to their attacks, the forms will help with a team's blue-bar too - by helping them kill faster. If it takes less effort to down a spawn when the nova's spamming aoe's than it does when the human form is "rockin' the shields" then the net effect on the team's collective blue bar is the same.

When attacking hard targets like AV's or Giant Monsters, I've got to think any team in their right mind would be crazy not to want you in one form or the other to bring those massive resists down.

It's not a bad suggestion.

I remember when he posted that in the Scrapper Forum - good stuff, and it's in my favorites, too.

Two things I want to point out:

1. Check the date - this was done BEFORE the damage buffs and dwarf-as-breakfree changes. Notable that he could double-mire, but operating with a lower damage scalar, longer recharg on dwarf mire, and no way to break mez without an inspiration more than make up for that.

2. Debtlover, you might notice if you watch that video that not once does the player use a break free or inspiration of any kind. Stress test enough?

I'm going to say this once more and then I"m done: Debtlover quit giving yourself props by dragging other people down. If you can't complete challenges others can, it doesn't give you any legitimacy to dismiss their accomplishments based on a technicality and make up your own stress test that's obviously perfectly suited for your build to win, like going up against the Council and Demons (couldn't have chosen two easier enemy groups, and that's why I asked originally)

If you have nothing to prove and like your toon the way it is then you have every reason to shut up, go away and let other people enjoy theirs. Just like you don't have to prove anything to them, they don't have to prove anything to you.

The troll show ends here.

Heh. And with that painful, ear-splitting sound that PB powers make, it's even thematic.

Sure it's a big deal, even with no mezzers. I'm not sure my WS could do it.

Recharge. I knew I missed something when I asked about set bonuses!

So I'm guessing you stealth in to the edge of the mob, orbiting death and the stun aura running, Grav Em, make for the boss, Gravity well, Eclipse, AoE blast, raise fluffies and unchain essence? Next mob, rinse/repeat and before long three fluffies out, right?

That was a most constructive post. Welcome to the Kheld Forums, Debtlover Consider my earlier Troll remarks retracted.

Okay, you didn't say that; that wasn't my point. And gratz on managing +3/8. Not everyone can do that. Was it with or without inspiratons? If it was without, then triple-gratz.

My point is that if you're really interested in promoting human-form, then you might try a more constructive approach.

Don't have mids? No problem - just give the general hilights of what helped make it possible.

For example, was it all your build, or did your playstyle and skill have more to do with it?

If it's the latter, how can others do it? Do you have a specific strategy?

What sets do you use, if any? Do you pursue soft-capped defense, or max out the damage?

Any of that helps others who might be curious about trying to do the same. Builds help greatly, but they certainly aren't a requirement.

Then what do you call this:

and this:
your tone is disrespectful and aggressive. And nasty in that last quote. Ew.

So let me ask you again - if a true stress test of a human form warshade in your opinion is soloing +4x8 mobs without inspirations, then how can that be done?

Be specific please. A build would help.

And no, I don't have any toons on Champion to come see you in action with, nor would I have the time right now even if I did.

Um.. okay.

So what do you think about the topic at hand?

Is a higher damage scalar what we need, or do you think we need something more? Or something different?

Thoughts on that, please.