Slashman

Yeah...that'll justify my preorder right there if there is more of the same in GR.

Because for her to do that would be the same as kicking puppies and slow-roasting babies while laughing maniacally. And that's pretty much how she sees the rest of us who do play villain side.

The divide is in her head and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

This is exactly the problem with Redside. It should never be about feeling more like COH so you should be comfortable playing it. That's what keeps turning people off. They can get a better hero experience playing blueside.

If, in fact, being a not-really-villain was what people wanted, redside would be way more populated. I play redside a lot, yes. But that's because I can tolerate the way the story arcs are presented due to the fact that the actual playing is more streamlined than COH.

I like the story content of a lot of the redside stuff as well...but the role I play in it as a character is often not what I envision a villain protagonist to be doing.

The content of redside is 'win' only because it sometimes has better writing and characters and flows better in terms of moving from mission to mission than blueside ever does. It's not win because it gives you the feel of being a true villain protagonist playing an active role in a story. This is where my problem lies.

The new villain arcs do a better job of making you feel like you have some kind of control over the flow of the story, even if that is only an illusion.

Which may have some unintended consequences. If Preatoria delivers on the kind of story presentation and choices we are wanting from the game and we aren't getting them anywhere else, we're going to want to spend our time there, sure. But villain players may find that they don't want to spend their time anywhere else because we don't get treated like villains anywhere else. Which may have the unintended consequence of emptying out redside completely. Which is something that I think GR will tend to do anyway exactly because of the problems that COV has.

I personally think that by not taking some time to improve the feel of redside, they are going to do a disservice to the game. People are going to want to go from red to blue but not the other way. And I don't think it will simply be because no one wants to be a bad guy. It will be because no one wants to play a lapdog and have a depressing experience simply because you choose to explore a different aspect of the game. Choosing to play a villain in a [I]videogame[/I ]should not make you feel like crap. It should be as compelling and rewarding an experience as playing a hero even if the experiences are different. And they should be different.

You keep missing this point. And maybe part of it is that you staunchly refuse to think about how redside is(because you never set foot there except in MA), but I honestly think it's because you are being purposely dense for your own amusement.

Having a less compelling redside experience isn't good for the game, regardless of what you or people who 'can't stand to play a horrid villain' may think. That includes the devs if they are as shortsighted as you keep trying to make them out to be.

There's a secondary game system waiting to be tapped right there. What if the level of respect that you have earned as a villain gave you some additional perks...like helpful minions in some missions or a special temp power here and there?

A villain reputation system which could affect the prices of your contact stores. If contact X is really scared crapless of you, then he wants you to be a satisfied customer for sure.

There are a lot of ways to turn being villainous into something tangible that players can relate to without culmination in world destruction or domination.

The Rogue Isles also has a setting advantage in that players could earn their own little island(albeit in a closed off zone) where they could possibly have a small community to rule over. The possibilities are endless, they have just never been properly explored.

Is she really? Because sometimes the things she says make me wonder...

In any case, what Sam, Kitsune and the others are saying is that the stuff to make villains feel like villains now is doable. There are other mechanics and game systems we'd all like to see get put into place on top of that, but going forward, story arcs for villains should always be about the choices you make as a villain. Not a lackey.

Here's the thing, the NPCs are more convincing villains...even the lackeys. The Notorious Doctor Creed still wants to take over the world, even though there are probably umpteen things standing in his way(including Arachnos and you). You still get the sense that he's working towards that mad scientist dream. Scheming and plotting and making things happen. It doesn't matter that he's in the shadow of Arachnos because he plans to stomp all over them once his 'genius master plan' comes to fruition.

He has a sense of purpose about him that you don't get to portray as a villain even though you're more powerful and capable.

It's not about you actually taking over Paragon City, it's about getting to give it the old college try, even if you fail at it.

The funny thing is that when I make suggestions based off things that have worked in other games, someone on the forums will up and say how they can't work because they are not MMOs etc. I don't expect it to work the same way. But that doesn't mean that an idea can't be built off of and expanded/improved/altered so it can work in a different game genre.

People expect different things from games these days. The idea of choice is a very popular theme for most gamers. As you pointed out with Mass Effect, the idea that you can choose how to proceed helps to define your character in a way that a simple bio that people may or may not read can never do.

Regardless of if you like open world games or not, I don't think that the open world is the main draw to people so much as being able to choose what and how you do things. Fallout 3 and Oblivion are examples of this. I think that Going Rogue has a lot of potential to usher in this aspect of gameplay, but I also want to see it reflected in the stories and arcs of COH and COV.

I'd say that, escapist or not, being the main protagonist in your own story is the most important thing. Even if things don't go your way and your plan doesn't turn out quite like how you 'planned', the point is that you are still the one moving things forward.

Some of the most interesting villain moments are, in fact, when their plans go off track and they have to try to correct them or even when they work too well. How the story ends isn't quite as important as how it starts and how you are regarded by the NPCs you interact with.

And I tend to disagree with the notion that this will only appeal to a niche set of players. As of now...villains is already a small niche that needs to be expanded.

You know I wonder if you're really going to enjoy GR as much as you think.

The last interview with War Witch suggests that the two sides in Preatoria are more about shades of gray than black and white. Will you stop playing an arc if it has your 'hero' Preatorian help to commit an 'unspeakable' act?

As to the original question by the OP. This really is very much a matter of writing and presentation. There have also been a lot of good replies here already.

Even so, I would have liked to see villains have personal strongholds and some kind of system for measuring their influence in the Rogue Isles. Like doing missions for contacts will give you villainous control points that you can use to undertake various schemes from building up your personal base of operations, to major assaults on Paragon City. Even having a kind of RTS system where you set up base defenses to repel invasions from heroes similar to Dungeon Keeper.

In the end...COV is a bit too much like COH and that is ironically its greatest weakness. It didn't need to be. It could have been something unique. I suspect that if they had taken steps to make it that way, then people would be more interested in it. Instead, people look at COV and go, well I can do this stuff on blueside and it's prettier and go play on blueside.

Redside really needs some attention and work. Not because it's broken...but because it needs to set itself apart from COH and be more unique apart from ATs(which will be a non-issue soon) and art style(which seems to be the thing that's stuck in everyone's craw).

You shouldn't really have to choose. Especially with a GTX 285. It's crazy that I can run Fallout 3 and Borderlands with everything up but get problems with a game this old. I'm running a GTX 260.

I turned the shadows to the lowest ultramode will give. The reflections are fine and water is great. AO seems to be the biggest culprit.

I'm also getting some infrequent moments of horrendous slowdown. They clear up in a few seconds but it's pretty noticeable when it happens.

I still say this issue needed to be baked in the oven for a couple more weeks.

I'm now a bit reluctant to find out what kind of performance I will get in Preatoria.

Someone on the tech support forums was mentioning that they don't seem to play well together(AO and AA). I dropped mine to the medium setting and got better framerate but I did notice aliasing where there wasn't any before.

I'd say that Ultramode still needs some additional time baking in the oven before it can eat. Even with all this new stuff, this game should not be this taxing graphically when I can run pretty much every game on the market with everything turned up nice and high and have no serious performance issues.

Thanks for the info...although I do think that's odd.

Actually that info is no longer there. I do vaguely remember it being there during the DP beta but the specific effects of the ammo powers are no longer being displayed. I don't know if that's just for me. If so, it's a weird bug.

So only the effect info for the standard rounds is shown.

Yeah! Ha! Ha! These things happen...

Where do you live, dead man!?!

No. Apparently reading is the curse of modern man. We'll soon be handing out awards for illiteracy.

This makes sense. The system doesn't need to be overly elaborate, it just has to mesh with the game well.

I personally would like to see something like this implemented sooner rather than later since it would make fighting badguys on the streets mean something again. Also, something like this can be used to do all sorts of things, like adding extra bits of lore and story to a player's experience rather than having to do an entire arc.

It would work for especially well for players who have heroes that are the 'street protector' types and maybe don't want to do some of the story content.

In terms of stuff inside missions, I'm actually not opposed to small randomisable puzzles if they are used in the right way. For instance, a puzzle minigame to hack security computers to trigger some security bots to come out and help you fight as little pets would be one thing I could see happening. If you fail to hack the system, then the mission is done just like a normal mission. You haven't 'lost' anything really.

In the end, I think it's about creating a more heroic/villainous experience for the player and doing a bit more to break up the formulaic mission to mission grind.

Yes, but you're a special case. This I know from personal experience and many long conversations.

There are people who find tutorials confusing and then there are people who think that a game is worthless if you actually NEED a tutorial.

In terms of MMOs, some of that is the fault of MMOs for consistently being such stupid copies of each other. Someone coming from a standard fare fantasy MMO background is going to be a bit put off by the fact that even the sleekest, shiniest chest piece in the costume creator doesn't, in fact, add to your armor rating.

Now that's normal if you are approaching a game that's a bit different from what you're used to. It's another thing entirely to attempt to ignore what information is provided and available for you and then state that the game is too hard.

Some of that is a byproduct of our younger generation's self inflicted ADD. People think that anything that takes any effort or a bit of logical thought is somehow offensive and needs to be removed.

Society is simultaneously developing a lower tolerance for learning right alongside a lower tolerance for failing. But at the same time making no connection between the two.

This is reflected in a lot of current games where RTS games now have strategy and management elements removed because they need to appeal to the delicate masses. Where skill based games now have a handy auto kill mechanic that requires almost no player input(hello Splinter Cell: Conviction).

We are squarely in the Age of Rewarding Stupidity.

Pretty much this.

Although I will say that it sounds like some of the devs think that if something needs work, it has to be an elaborate production. This is something I disagree with in some cases.

Like when War Witch talked about improving the starting experience for standard heroes and villains. We'd all like to see some new stuff done here since not every character concept can be a Preatorian. But her take on it is that it would be something requiring a zone rewrite on the order of Faultline. She mentions all these new art assets etc. that would be needed to do this and says they don't have the resources.

I don't think it needs to be as grand a sweeping change as that. I don't think starting in Paragon or starting in the Rogue Isles needs to eclipse or be equal to a Preatoria starting experience...it just needs some updating and a few new contacts and arcs. I wouldn't go about trying to change Mercy Isle at all in the short term...just add more starting contacts. And while Galaxy City and Atlas could use some sprucing up, I don't think a zone-wide overhaul needs to be in place first before you try to make the starting experience for new heroes less crappy.

I think that's a weak dodge by the devs. Puzzles don't have to take any specific form. That is: A puzzle could come in any number of ways. There are ways to create puzzles that have different solutions.

I actually tend to think that mini-game puzzles would work best for an MMO for in-mission stuff. The hacking puzzles in Biosock are a good example and a better one would be the Tri-corder puzzles in Star Trek Elite Force 2. That's the sort of puzzle that can generate random solutions so it's never the same way twice(or at least not very often).

The example that Steelclaw gave could be refined by having the clue send you to a location and then maybe having you trail an NPC to find where they are going and who they are talking to. You get too close and they get suspicious, but stay too far back and you risk losing the trail.

The puzzles don't have to be complex, but they also shouldn't have solutions that you can just Google either. The hacking in Fallout 3 could be very difficult and had no designated solutions that you could just look up. It required some skill and luck.

There are ways to do this kind of stuff. I think it can add some much needed variety to the gameplay we have without significantly changing it too much so it's not COX anymore.

Heh Heh! Bet he's starting to regret mouthing off now!